Round 4 of Would you use Steam for Rebirth thread

[thetack]

without reading 100 pages of ww3 has Bernd said anything new about the subject here or on the german forum

[T.S.Zatoichi]

Have you seen the third installment of the 'ask one question' thread? That's from January and other than that I haven't heard anything new.

[David Howland]

Alan this breaks the rules but I have spotted a problem here, causing you problems of offending posts!
This is the confusing contradiction between Nanooks post encouraging reading of the last thread split and carrying on ongoing debates and your splitting posts asking for dropping of current debate and moving on!
It would greatly help reduce confusion if you and Nanook could align your thread advice.

<Thank you David. I detected no continuing debate or relevance to the thread whatsoever in your split-out post. Alan Phipps>

No Alan I was referring more to N-S's post!

<You mean the near exact repeat of what he said to you before in the other thread? Surely N-S should be the one to argue that case? If you want to continue this line of query please use PM. Alan Phipps>

[the old one]

Hi Slashman,in apast post i suggested a way to get a non steam version of AP but and rightly you said Ego only wanted to do one one patch instead of a couple.Will you correct me if i am wrong when egosoft nake a patch or a new game they add the steam content last,if that is the case it would take a little effort to do a non steam as well as a steam version?.It would be interesting to see egosoft do this wit AP and see what extra sales it would generate.I know egosoft will get extra sales through steam but they would get more if they considered those people with bad or slow internet connections.And we know the bottom line is how much revenue comes in to egosft,the more the better so they can carry on makeing good games.every one thinks the X games are great the only difference is some of us will not use steam and some do not have the reasonal internet connection that is required,well you can not say i do not try,the old one

[David Howland]

Hi the old one,
I think I have a possible answer to why Steam is buried so deep in RB!
Bern'd has mentioned in early debate on the subject, that there was a possibility of the development of multi-player for RB. This MP would not be based in the RB engine which would be too expensive for ES but using the mechanics of the Steam system. For this to work effectively the steam system has to be buried deep in the RB engine. Bearing this in mind an AP style patch in RB would be difficult, the answer would be a totally separate non-steam version, VERY EXPENSIVE and not likely!

THE STRUGGLE MUST GO ON!

[Cycrow]

Hi Slashman,in apast post i suggested a way to get a non steam version of AP but and rightly you said Ego only wanted to do one one patch instead of a couple.Will you correct me if i am wrong when egosoft nake a patch or a new game they add the steam content last,if that is the case it would take a little effort to do a non steam as well as a steam version?.It would be interesting to see egosoft do this wit AP and see what extra sales it would generate.I know egosoft will get extra sales through steam but they would get more if they considered those people with bad or slow internet connections.And we know the bottom line is how much revenue comes in to egosft,the more the better so they can carry on makeing good games.every one thinks the X games are great the only difference is some of us will not use steam and some do not have the reasonal internet connection that is required,well you can not say i do not try,the old one

this is something only the devs would be able to answer, as no one else will know exactly how things are implemented

however, just remember that steamworks is also a programming API.
so while some games might just have steam added at the end, others might use the complete API to build thier game. So removing it would be the same as trying to remove DirectX from the game

also remember, even if all they are doing is adding the steam stuff at the end, it still means they are maintaining 2 seperate patches.
steam simplifies the patching process considerably

[strude]

also remember, even if all they are doing is adding the steam stuff at the end, it still means they are maintaining 2 seperate patches.
steam simplifies the patching process considerably

I'm not even sure that Steam uses patches as we know them. It's more a case of synchronising files as I understand it.

The following is my assumption on how Steam updates games. I have no inside knowledge of whether this is the actual process or not.

ES send the updated game files to Valve. When a player triggers an update, the game files list on the client end is compared to the game files list on the Steam server, and any different files are sent to the client.

If that is how it works, or something along those lines, then ES may not be producing any patches at all, in the sense of an executable program that updates the game files. They may be just sending their current release build binaries to Valve.

This explains why AP updates only replace the cat/dat files, instead of adding additional files. It also explains why some Steam updates can be so big. Instead of the patch just containing a small change to a large file, the entire file is replaced.

[Alan Phipps]

I also assume that would depend a lot upon whether a patch added new game content or was an urgent bug hotfix as whether it would add cat/dats, replace them, replace the game.exe and/or replace/update core gamefiles.

[Argonaught.]

I've been away for a long while and can't be bothered reading through 300+ posts to see if any of this was said:

I like nothing more than to have a hardcopy of anything i buy, having to download a full game that I can never physically hold is hard for me to accept really.

for patches and updates I don't mind about using steam but for the full retail I'd like a boxed disc.

Reason is simplicity itself ... someday Steam may die and i won't have that game anymore, but with a hardcopy there's no worries at all.

To anyone that does know: Will there be a hardcopy in a box that i can buy?

Argo.

[Rabiator der II.]

Hi the old one,
I think I have a possible answer to why Steam is buried so deep in RB!
Bern'd has mentioned in early debate on the subject, that there was a possibility of the development of multi-player for RB. This MP would not be based in the RB engine which would be too expensive for ES but using the mechanics of the Steam system. For this to work effectively the steam system has to be buried deep in the RB engine. Bearing this in mind an AP style patch in RB would be difficult, the answer would be a totally separate non-steam version, VERY EXPENSIVE and not likely!

THE STRUGGLE MUST GO ON!

Really? To my best knowledge, what Steam offers is the "matchmaking" service. That is, it lets you see lists of available servers, which of your friends are online and so on.

But the game servers are still supplied by the players:

• 1) a fan/guid/clan has to set up a server (as in hardware)
  2) install the game server (as in server software which is specific to the game)
  3) connect it to the internet
  4) connect to Steam for advertising that the server is available.

Now this particular game server shows up on Steam. Note that you can take a shortcut by renting the server from a company like http://www.gameservers.com/ (just as example). Or in some cases, your home PC may be sufficient.

But my point is that the game server from step 2) does the serious work of hosting the game, and the game developer has to supply it.
Valve had suitable engines for their games since the early 2000s, as Half-Life 1 already had multiplayer. But that does not mean their engine is available to Egosoft, or even useful for RB.

[Nagittchi]

I don't know why, but it seems a handful of people in the smaller game communities I've seen, such as X3 or Total War, hate Steam. Mainly people from Europe, but I could assume one hatred about that is they blame Steam for not adjusting the price differences between currencies. (Which from what I've heard, was the responsibility of the developers).

I've had Steam since 2004, close to its inception, and have had hardly any problems with it. I've had times where I had no internet for more than 1-2 weeks and Offline Mode allowed me to play my games EXCEPT Valve games which seemed needing to be checked online after a week or so.

Valve doesnt seem to have any major threats atm of being a going concern, especially with the revenue it's getting from game purchases. The company is relatively small compared to its peers, so I doubt Steam will be going anywhere anytime soon. I mean, look at Gamespy Arcade. It's been there since the 90s. So many people dislike that (more than Steam), but it's still there.

Although I do not mind Steam, the biggest gripe that I have about it is that Steam doesnt seem to accept use "patches", probably a security issue or something since most patches are .exes, but Steam just downloads the WHOLE file again. This was particularly annoying with The Witcher 2, which had friggin 2-3GB game files! Oh well.

I've noticed that the view count in thread is extremely high and that there were tonnnns of posts before mine. So I'm pretty sure it's already been argued to death. I gave my two cents; So I'm going to stop here...

[NUKLEAR-SLUG]

Hi Slashman,in apast post i suggested a way to get a non steam version of AP but and rightly you said Ego only wanted to do one one patch instead of a couple.Will you correct me if i am wrong when egosoft nake a patch or a new game they add the steam content last,if that is the case it would take a little effort to do a non steam as well as a steam version?.It would be interesting to see egosoft do this wit AP and see what extra sales it would generate.I know egosoft will get extra sales through steam but they would get more if they considered those people with bad or slow internet connections.And we know the bottom line is how much revenue comes in to egosft,the more the better so they can carry on makeing good games.every one thinks the X games are great the only difference is some of us will not use steam and some do not have the reasonal internet connection that is required,well you can not say i do not try,the old one

this is something only the devs would be able to answer, as no one else will know exactly how things are implemented

however, just remember that steamworks is also a programming API.
so while some games might just have steam added at the end, others might use the complete API to build thier game. So removing it would be the same as trying to remove DirectX from the game

also remember, even if all they are doing is adding the steam stuff at the end, it still means they are maintaining 2 seperate patches.
steam simplifies the patching process considerably

The basic integration of your code into the Steam API is apparently a fairly simple process such that a developer isn't necessarily required to code for Steam from scratch, integration can be done later in the development cycle.

That said, it wasn't clear whether that situation applied to basic integration or full-featured integration taking advantage of all the online features Steam offers. Either way tho it would still, as you say, require maintaining two code streams.

I don't know why, but it seems a handful of people in the smaller game communities I've seen, such as X3 or Total War, hate Steam. Mainly people from Europe, but I could assume one hatred about that is they blame Steam for not adjusting the price differences between currencies. (Which from what I've heard, was the responsibility of the developers).

It's a european thing, we seem to get screwed over regularly. $35 != £35/euros

[A5PECT]

From what I'm hearing it seems like high speed Internet access is much more limited in the UK compared to the US.

Over here most service providers do not place monthly limits on data. So even if you have a crappy connection you can deal with patches by keeping it running while you're away at work or sleeping. By the time you wake up in the morning or get back from work, the download is finished.

That isn't to say data limits don't exist at all in US ISPs, this is just my experience.

[Eastlin]

Theres no reason not to use steam.

[thetack]

eastlin there are many reasons too not use steam starting with no f*****g internet at home, or a connection so unreliable that you may as well not have it.
i cant be bothered to list the rest because its pointless if you dont have a problem with it whats the point in giving them to you.

actualy this thread is realy pointless untill Bernd tells us just how mutch steam infection is in the game, and no i dont hate steam i just dont want it on my pc.

fortunatly i can find beter things to do with my cash than buy a steam infected game.

[Slashman]

Hi Slashman,in apast post i suggested a way to get a non steam version of AP but and rightly you said Ego only wanted to do one one patch instead of a couple.Will you correct me if i am wrong when egosoft nake a patch or a new game they add the steam content last,if that is the case it would take a little effort to do a non steam as well as a steam version?.It would be interesting to see egosoft do this wit AP and see what extra sales it would generate.I know egosoft will get extra sales through steam but they would get more if they considered those people with bad or slow internet connections.And we know the bottom line is how much revenue comes in to egosft,the more the better so they can carry on makeing good games.every one thinks the X games are great the only difference is some of us will not use steam and some do not have the reasonal internet connection that is required,well you can not say i do not try,the old one

Sorry I did not answer you earlier old one, I've been kind of busy. I think most of the answers you got after you posted probably covered everything.

Steamworks, as we are understanding, goes beyond being a basic Steam game...like how I got Terran Conflict. When you integrate it into the game and depending on what features of it the developers choose to use, it may be a bigger headache to produce a non-Steam patch than not.

The other problem is packaging of the game itself. Do you make two different boxes? One for Steamworks and one for Steam-free? Having the two options in one package is bound to cause some confusion.

I suppose they could make it a download only for non-Steam...but that would leave people back in the position of having no box again.

[strude]

I also assume that would depend a lot upon whether a patch added new game content or was an urgent bug hotfix as whether it would add cat/dats, replace them, replace the game.exe and/or replace/update core gamefiles.

True. TC added cat/dat files when updated from Steam, so any method is possible. The point I was aiming for is that updating through Steam may not save ES from making two patches, but could save them from making any patches at all. That saves them from having to bundle the files into some structure suitable for patching, and creating, bundling, or maybe licencing a third party executable portion that extracts the files and applies it to the existing files.

By 'patch' I mean what most people refer to, that being an executable file that updates game files, and not just the general act of updating a game. In regards to Steam, the word 'patch' might not actually be the most correct one.

[Slashman]

True. TC added cat/dat files when updated from Steam, so any method is possible. The point I was aiming for is that updating through Steam may not save ES from making two patches, but could save them from making any patches at all. That saves them from having to bundle the files into some structure suitable for patching, and creating, bundling, or maybe licencing a third party executable portion that extracts the files and applies it to the existing files.

By 'patch' I mean what most people refer to, that being an executable file that updates game files, and not just the general act of updating a game. In regards to Steam, the word 'patch' might not actually be the most correct one.

I think this is a likely scenario. Steam actually refers to them as updates and not patches. This is also probably one reason that Steam doesn't support multiple versions of a game. There is no patch exe to run. Steam just matches whatever the latest version of the game is from the developer and syncs the files accordingly.

Someone mentioned The Witcher 2. Steam has actually started using an update method that doesn't replace the entire file...only those portions that differ from the updated version. When this was announced, I don't think it applied to every game...they slowly started to transition to this over a period of months. I suspect that major server updating was involved. The Witcher 2 got two patches just around this time and there was a LOT of complaining.

[quase]

Someone mentioned The Witcher 2. Steam has actually started using an update method that doesn't replace the entire file...only those portions that differ from the updated version. When this was announced, I don't think it applied to every game...they slowly started to transition to this over a period of months. I suspect that major server updating was involved. The Witcher 2 got two patches just around this time and there was a LOT of complaining.

There were no problems with the update I downloaded from CD Projekt directly. Also the GoG.com version did not have problems. Must be a Steam problem.

Anyway, what CD Projekt did is the best way to publish/ distribute a game. Make it available for everyone on the whatever platform they use for their PC. That is the way it is done, not a forced Steam binding, but freedom of choice for the customer.
In my opinion there is nothing to discuss whether or not it is possible to maintain different codes (if there are even different ones) when other developers show that it can be done properly.

[Slashman]

There were no problems with the update I downloaded from CD Projekt directly. Also the GoG.com version did not have problems. Must be a Steam problem.

Its a download the whole file problem versus download only the part of the file you need to change problem. It's corrected now...but at the time of the Witcher 2 updates that system wasn't in place.

Anyway, what CD Projekt did is the best way to publish/ distribute a game. Make it available for everyone on the whatever platform they use for their PC. That is the way it is done, not a forced Steam binding, but freedom of choice for the customer.

It was the best way for CD Projekt because they were intent on doing it that way.

In my opinion there is nothing to discuss whether or not it is possible to maintain different codes (if there are even different ones) when other developers show that it can be done properly.

CD Projekt didn't use Steamworks for The Witcher 2. Egosoft are definitely using Steamworks for Rebirth. It isn't the same thing because they are not in the same position as CD Projekt.

This is something you don't seem to be understanding. You're essentially telling Egosoft/Deepsilver to abandon Steamworks altogether so they can 'do it right'. That's highly unlikely to happen when they want to use the features that Steamworks offers. Are you volunteering to write them a developer API that fills the gap?

On a completely different note(and consequently off-topic). The release of Wing Commander: Darkest Dawn was announced yesterday. It looks like a worthy fan-made project. I'm downloading it now, even though I didn't know about it until yesterday. Steam-free too!