Clumsy fleet operations

[deca.death]

Major fleet operations which include all types of warships, smallest to largest are something that inspires awe and tickles imagination of many. I just took my second task force for an easy stroll in Xenon 598. Basically, I wanted to test out how computer, from a newbie aspect, deals with combat situations that include larger group of player ships of various types. I'm aware that situation could be dealt more efficiently but i wanted to see how computer deals with standard tools, not elaborate systems players devise to outwit limited AI of your own ships. I used commands such as "protect ship" and "attack nearest". Ships included:

M2 Python (flown by me)
M7 Carrack (AA support)
M7 Cerebrus (AA support, light carrier)
M6 Skiron
M6 Dragon

Cerebrus wing
3 x Nova sentinels (HEPT)
1 x Kea (HEPT)
2 x Solano (PRG)

In short, operation was a mess. I had several casualties, had to reload few times. Much more difficult then to tend single ship. My so called anti fighter support was left behind 5-12km, (fear of collision?)being completely useless. In general, most of group capitl ships stayed too much behind (they were all faster then M2) and were pretty useless. When I jumped in Cerebrus to take care of large fighter group several Qs jump in and attacked from different sides, killing Carrack. You have to watch to all sides at once because your ships seem to be r*******. "Attack target nearest" gave better results but then fighters went too far away and almost get killed. I wasn't expecting anything better, still... Ironically, I'm absolutely certain that smaller, more specialized group would be much more effective (like M2+M7. or M1 full of fighters, or pair of M2). Combat requires extensive micromanagement, and if you give yourself too much to do and take care of, overview of global strategic situation might suffer.

I'm not saying this can't be done, but is it worth it? What are your experiences?

[ external image ]

[garv222]

The closest thing I've ever had to a fleet action was a test with 3 deimos. The center had the mostly CIG and HEPT. The flanking ships carried PSG on the sides for anti-fighter duties. I jump them into a sector to see how it works out... and...


...it turns into a downright mess just like your situation and this was just 3 ships in a wing. The enemy were actively engaging the m7, but the m7 basically kept doing donuts trying get the main guns on targets. What ultimately happens is the HEPT get most of the action. They also kept hitting each others' collision boxes causing them to get separated.

I suppose it's a limitation in the AI that causes these kind of messes. Imagine what the game would look like cinematically(<-is this even a word?) if the AI for capital ships did broadside strafes across each other instead of spending the majority of the time struggling to present their forward guns.

I can't remember if m2 have the same kind of behavior, since my Titan didn't seem to have these problem, but that maybe because M2 have so many guns on each side and they're so slow. My first thought was this was some kind of priority to get the main guns on target and fully turreted ships might not suffer from this, but my panther does the same thing as my deimos', but by this time I've learned that m7 do better by them self instead of in a group. The panther would also constantly do donuts. The few times where the forward battery of CIG does get presented it makes a pretty light show that just as effective as it is fun to watch.

[Master of the Blade]

Best fleet compositions are extremes: small numbers of very powerful ships (for example, I once flattened Family Pride with two destroyers and a few corvettes.), or spammage of weaker ships, carrier style - 40-65 fighters can afford to take a few losses, and deal massive damage.

Using Carracks as AI ships IS is not a good idea - 2GJ isn't enough shielding when you're going up against capitals, and the autopillock is too r******* to use the Carrack's size and agility to avoid PPC fire. Cerberuses are better due to more shielding, but I'd say Deimos(es?) would be the undisputed champions simply due to their endurance.

I haven't done this, but a pack of M7s ( four or so) might be quite effective at tearing things up even under AI control.

[ancienthighway]

Out of curiosity, how does that task force fair in OOS combat?

[deca.death]

Generally, I do not fight OOS, but I think it would fared well. Manny ships mean good damage dissipation, occasional losses are still to be expected. If you throw in 20 M5s in a group like that, results would be even better.

[A5PECT]

Yeah, try to keep things simple. My battlegroup usually consists of a Griffon and its eight Solanos. I add a Brigantine if there's going to be multiple enemy capital ships. If things get really crazy then I'll jump in a carrier to deploy two wings of 10 Novas, but that's a rare occasion.

So I'm never using more than two capital ships and three fighter wings at once. Also, I really try to avoid assigning capital ships to wings, they're just too unwieldy to use in numbers. The closest I get to that is ordering the Griffon to protect the Brigantine while I fly it personally; it helps keep me from getting swarmed by fighters.

[aka1nas]

If you are at all script-inclined, CODEA makes fleet combat much more enjoyable. You can basically set it up to handle as much of the micro-management as you want it to (rearming fighters, target assignment based on threat assessment, automated supply lines, ferrying replacement fighters to a carrier, etc) and CODEA has been able to utilize other capital ships attached to the carrier for a while now.

[Catra]

I use an extremely huge fleet, mostly cause I run modified and AI fleets are well organized, coordinated, and in much larger numbers.

My (current, split theme) fleet:

1x Python ( flown by me ) PPC where applicable, IBL back, ISR up and down.
2x Tigers. 8x ISR upfront, flak all around. Set to attack fighters.
9x Heavy Dragons (set to attack closest enemy of my python) 4x ISR in the turret(set to attack enemies) 8x HEPT upfront.
8x Dragons (4 to each Tiger) 6x HEPT 2x ISR upfront, PAC in the back set to missile defense. Set to protect.
65x Asps. 6x PBEs attack fighters.

Basically, as long as you're the last one to jump in ( so collision logic can work its magic), and give everyone enough spacing( which depends on ships being used, a cerberus needs more spacing than a tiger ), you'll be fine, escorts do tend to creep extremely close to what they're escorting (all commands that have you selecting a friendly), so don't be giving those kind of orders to M7s / M2s / M1s to escort other M7s / M2s / M1s.

M6s come extremely, uncomfortably close to crashing into big ships, but I've haven't lost one yet due to that( yes, I've used the springie, and yes, none have died due to collisions).

[David Howland]

I have not yet built a task force, having most of my capitals employed in Empire defense patrols. I do however have an anti Xenon laboratory in the Zenon sector next to TUS3. I have a task force that spends half its time on defense patrol in TUS1 and half as expeditionary force in the Xenon sector. I must add here that I have a large LT cloud at both sides of this gate so my task force can jump in without coming under immediate heavy attack. My force consists of: 3 Osaka, a Tokyo with some fighters, in TUS3 I have a Gannet escorted by two Shrike which sometimes jumps in to support.
Sometimes I join my task group IS, sometimes I control the foray OOS, I never allow a ship of mine in a Xenon Sector without my supervision. The lead Osaka is protected by an Osaka and Tokyo, the third Osaka protecting the Tokyo. I jump the group in with defend the gate orders, I then give them specific destroy a ship order or lay adv. sat. or whatever, after which they return to the cover of the LT cloud on defend gate duties. While they are doing this I get two or three mistrals to jump in and lay LT reinforcements, these ships dump 100 LTs at a time. Occasionally the sector will spawn a group of up to 6 capitals to attack my force, I usually will jump IS to direct matters but sometimes the main problem is not the capitals but overwhelming Xenon fighter numbers, this is when I jump in the M7s from TUS3 to assist. So far I have lost over a period of 6 months; an SPP., a Capital ship and a few fighters! Meanwhile the experiments carry on.

[n00biwan]

Only fleet action I've tried is the last mission of final fury...

SO much badness when I first tried it (I forget what fight rank I was) that I reloaded and bought some stuff.

Something along the lines of -
1x Springblossom (Personal taxi so i could change capital quickly)
1x Akuma
3x Panther (with about 5-7 each fairly random M3/M4/M5s - Asps, Solanos, Jaguars, Mambas, basically whatever I could buy L versions of)

Plus all the caps had 10-15 lasertowers in the hold, dropped in groups of 3-4 as I moved closer to the objective. Very handy actually....

Had the frigates in a wing and just told them to "Move to position" mostly (though I did tell them to attack the odd m2), drove the Akuma and tried to keep the springy out of the furball. The fighters were told to attack target nearest the M7s.

Lost pretty much all the fighters, half of the towers and none of the Caps (got close to losing 1).

Was pretty messy and I dread to think what it would be like with more ships.

However, it was the most fun I've had fighting in TC...

[n00biwan]

erm... yeah... oops...

[n00biwan]

:'(

[n00biwan]

*mutter* Had connection errors so sorry for the multipost - thought it didn't work...

[Triaxx2]

Always daisy chain from the slowest ships. So the Cerberus has Protect Orders for the Python, the Carrack has protect orders for the Cerberus. The Skiron Protects the Carrack and the Dragon Protects the Skiron. The fighters, being far and away more Agile than the capitals are set to protect whatever needs it most, probably the Carrack. However, collision logic being what it is, you'll want to leave the M7's behind until the Python is clear of the gate.

Once you've cut a path through the capitals and have only fighters, then you can call for anti-fighter support to jump in and join the party.

[A5PECT]

I only use cap ships in pairs, and I only link ships that are at least one class apart i.e. M1/M2 > M7 escort, M7 > M6 escort. In the former case I only link two ships at a time, say, my Brigantine and my Griffon. In the latter case I usually only link one, but sometimes two corvettes if I feel the firepower is warranted.

I feel the size difference works in a sort of "planet and satellite" system, where the big ship acts as the anchor and the small ship sort of orbits around it to form a defensive line.

[Infekted]

In my current game I am not allowed to get combat rank above that required to start OFF. So I am making heavy use of fleets whilst I buzz around in a Springblossom.
I usually bring in one M2 first. Once that's clear of the gate, bring in two more set to attack its target. Usually finding the lead M2 deals with most things. Once those are clear, start jumping in carriers and deploying wings of M3s. Usually with one wing to sit on the carriers, one to provide close support for the M2s and one to provide close support to me or reach out and touch things.
Or if I am feeling lazy, or wanna get it over quickly. Bring in one or two M7Ms and flatten everything...




edit: Noobiwan: Think I just had the same problem as you. It said it hadn't posted, but when I checked my post was here.

[grimfear]

I cant even get my fleet to follow me throught the jump gate without rear ending me.(unless I hit the tubo mk2 just as I exit)

[zackinger]

I´ve been using Fleets with good success a few times already.

What i use is:

M1 Raptor (Personal flagship) with 3 wings of fighters;
2 Tigers in a wing as escorts/ hunter-killer squad;
that´s the basic setup and all i lost so far is a few fighters which got caught up by superior Khaak/Xenon numbers.

Or if things get really rough i add in as needed:
M2 Ray; a wing of 2 M8 bombers and a M7M Kraken

I rarely use the escort command though and try to give each wing specific targets.

[deca.death]

I use an extremely huge fleet, mostly cause I run modified and AI fleets are well organized, coordinated, and in much larger numbers.

Could you list mods that you use, for that specific purpose but others as well.

My (current, split theme) fleet:

1x Python ( flown by me ) PPC where applicable, IBL back, ISR up and down.

If compared to you mere newbie could offer the advice: CIGs work better then ISRs in my observations. They are more likely to hit, they toss targets around AND they are more energy efficient. They are not "Split theme" though : )

escorts do tend to creep extremely close to what they're escorting (all commands that have you selecting a friendly), so don't be giving those kind of orders to M7s / M2s / M1s to escort other M7s / M2s / M1s.

So commands like: M2 protect other M2 are not advisable. K.

[deca.death]

The lead Osaka is protected by an Osaka and Tokyo, the third Osaka protecting the Tokyo.

That proved better solution then all capitals protect one or something similar? Don't group get too widespread when IS?

So far I have lost over a period of 6 months; an SPP., a Capital ship and a few fighters! Meanwhile the experiments carry on.

You have large assets in Aldrin region or you do it... you know... just for fun ; )