Old Steam Poll posts split and 'archived'

[Chris0132]

Can you - Bernd - now state: 'You ARE able to play offline' ?

Not unless he has tested every PC running steam in the world, no.

[henkbein]

Not unless he has tested every PC running steam in the world, no.

I rest my case.

[Chris0132]

Not unless he has tested every PC running steam in the world, no.

I rest my case.

You realise that also applies to questions like.

'Can you run X3?'

'Can you post on the forum?'

'Can you turn on the computer without it exploding and killing everyone in the building?'

Nothing is guaranteed with PCs, the best you can say is that, under close to ideal circumstances, you should be able to produce the desired result.

[VincentTH]

Not unless he has tested every PC running steam in the world, no.

I rest my case.

You realise that also applies to questions like.

'Can you run X3?'

'Can you post on the forum?'

'Can you turn on the computer without it exploding and killing everyone in the building?'

Nothing is guaranteed with PCs, the best you can say is that, under close to ideal circumstances, you should be able to produce the desired result.

I agree with you there, but since Egosoft cannot guarantee that X:R will run in everyone PC, it then makes sense for them to provide a Steam-Free solution for them. I know those are minority, but 40+% is a significant number.

Here, remember, I am not discussing the merit of Steam. I understand that, as I have been a Steam user myself, and quite like it. However, Steam has a lot of problems, even with a PC-experience user like myself, so I shudder to think of the poor guy with no tech knowlege on how to handle his ports/firewall/offline mode tricks to make Steam works for him.

[Cycrow]

Not unless he has tested every PC running steam in the world, no.

I rest my case.

but then even without steam, theres still a chance the game wont work either.
theres no guarentee that software will run on 100% of computers

VincentTH, i tried it, and it worked fine.
and it had worked fine in the past when i had no connection.
i switched it to offline mode without a problem, and it continued to work in offline mode after rebooting/shutting down pc, etc


also, i've played the steam DiD game, and not had a problem about losing my saves, so for me, it does work

but as i said, no software works 100%, too many variables to cause it to break. As long as it works for the majority

[VincentTH]

Not unless he has tested every PC running steam in the world, no.

I rest my case.

but then even without steam, theres still a chance the game wont work either.
theres no guarentee that software will run on 100% of computers

VincentTH, i tried it, and it worked fine.
and it had worked fine in the past when i had no connection.
i switched it to offline mode without a problem, and it continued to work in offline mode after rebooting/shutting down pc, etc


also, i've played the steam DiD game, and not had a problem about losing my saves, so for me, it does work

but as i said, no software works 100%, too many variables to cause it to break. As long as it works for the majority

In my tests, X3TC, DOW 40K work fine in offline mode. It's when you purchase/acquire a DLC, then it would cease to work in offline mode, since Steam need to authenticate the DLC before it allows the game to run.

The test does give some truth to the claim I made earlier that when you buy a game (or a DLC) from Steam, you don't really own the game, you are just buying a service (or rent it)

[Chris0132]

Not unless he has tested every PC running steam in the world, no.

I rest my case.

but then even without steam, theres still a chance the game wont work either.
theres no guarentee that software will run on 100% of computers

VincentTH, i tried it, and it worked fine.
and it had worked fine in the past when i had no connection.
i switched it to offline mode without a problem, and it continued to work in offline mode after rebooting/shutting down pc, etc


also, i've played the steam DiD game, and not had a problem about losing my saves, so for me, it does work

but as i said, no software works 100%, too many variables to cause it to break. As long as it works for the majority

In my tests, X3TC, DOW 40K work fine in offline mode. It's when you purchase/acquire a DLC, then it would cease to work in offline mode, since Steam need to authenticate the DLC before it allows the game to run.

The test does give some truth to the claim I made earlier that when you buy a game (or a DLC) from Steam, you don't really own the game, you are just buying a service (or rent it)

But this is also true of anything you buy, if you buy a game from the shop, it comes with a shelf life, eventually hardware will change, software will change, patches will cease to be made, and the game will become effectively unplayable.

The idea that having to be online to play the game makes the distinction between buying something and renting it is kinda silly really, it's like saying games are a rental because you have to plug the computer into the electricity socket to play them.

[Slashman]

Not unless he has tested every PC running steam in the world, no.

I rest my case.

How could anyone state that though? No company can 100% guarantee that anything will work on every PC.

More importantly, though, is the fact that people are probably getting the wrong idea about what offline mode in Steam is even for.

I was of the impression that offline mode was to facilitate people with spotty internet connections who may have some days when they can't get online or need to run games when in-transit during trips etc.

I don't think the intended use was ever to have a permanent, or even semi-permanent offline situation.

The fact that some people have been able to do that successfully(run in offline mode for months on end), doesn't mean that was the use intended for the function.

The specific problems with the X games when it comes to running multiple versions due to mods and fake patches are squarely the fault of Egosoft. I don't think you can lay the blame for a badly designed mod system on Steam's doorstep.

We can always hope that X:R doesn't work that way. And in fact it shouldn't. But if it does have similar issues where people need to run several versions of the game with fake patches etc. then Egosoft are again the ones to blame for designing the system that way.

[Shimrod]

Steam's proposition, a subscription arrangement with access to the games only possible through the Steam client, would appeal to me only where I'd pay a negligible amount (say £1 per app), for fun applications for very young children, which they wouldn't care about in a years time when they grew out of Fifi or whatever.

For such as XR, which I'd be liable to replay over many years, I'd be looking for an online retailer with a reasonable value proposition, as a purchase rather than rental arrangement, no strings attached to my continued ability to play the game, where I can reinstall it straight from NAS drive if I ever need to. No ties back to the place I bought it from save a receipt if I want to get a refund.

However I'm not looking to buy the game online. I want a boxed copy with a glossy cover manual. I want a Dark Wheel novella in there to fire the imagination, and fold out poster with a cobra mk 3 on it and all that good stuff.

Requiring Steam to be installed in this case is an absurd proposition, absolutely unacceptable for me. I'd rather have nothing than be forced to install Steam to play the game. I've played the X games for 10 years, and Steam just outweighs that and torpedoes the deal.

I would not even buy Elite 4 if I had to install Steam to play it.

[Chris0132]

Considering I've used steam continuously since 2004, and still play the crap out of the half life games I registered it with, I can say with some definitiveness that buying from steam (especially if you buy valve products) is actually better than buying from a store in terms of longevity. Half life runs as good as the day I bought it, I can't say the same for most of my other games from that era.

It is important not to confuse theoretical risk with practical risk, practically valve is a titan of PC development and probably THE single most promising distributor for the platform. It is highly unlikely that they are going to randomly say you can't play your games or go out of business. it is highly likely that they will continue to support their platform which makes them so much money.

[Texhnolyzed]

I think even more so now, the anti-Steam people will grab and hold onto every single bit of straw they can find. I'm glad to see some really good posters in this thread though... I pretty much gave up on trying to argue with the people here.

You keep attacking anti-Steam people's opinion, but you kinda ignore the real tests that are related to Steam+Egosoft. Those are real problems with X3TC-on-Steam - and acknowleged by an Egosoft dev - that are currently un-resolved after 3+ months. Just the facts maam!!!

Issues that a few people here have, while others do not. Well, it at least is a problem that actually exists though, certainly a step forward... in a way.

[Shimrod]

It is important not to confuse theoretical risk with practical risk, practically valve is a titan of PC development and probably THE single most promising distributor for the platform

For me I'm not so worried about the wheels falling off the car, as having an unwanted passenger telling me how to drive it.

If I can accomplish activation then uninstall Steam and continue to play, then that'd work for me. As long as they patch out that activation down the road like in witcher 2.

[bobxii]

Steam is not designed to be a long-term offline platform, period.

It's offline mode is designed for relatively brief periods of no internet connectivity - though Valve is working on it (reportedly the beta client fixes the offline mode!)

If you're in one of those situations where any kind of internet is impossible, remember that you're in a tiny minority, and your favorite games' developer won't make a whole hell of a lot of money off of you anyway (whereas they will by having it on Steam).

It's change; it sucks for some people but it's the way life works.

[Chris0132]

You can't, steam games use steam as part of their functionality, their data is stored in steam archive formats and their updates patch to those archives, they function as a backup and also a security measure as you need steam to use them, and you need a valid account with the game connected to it to run steam. Does have the nice benefit however that you can (with half life 2 at least) make whatever modifications you like to the game folder, and if it breaks you just delete it and steam restores from the archive, very nice for modding work.

Otherwise valve really doesn't tell you how to play your games, I suppose the closest they come is VAC bans, but unless you plan to cheat on multiplayer games that shouldn't be an issue. All you need is to be connected to the internet, really. Steam connects and sorts all its stuff out by itself, when you want to run the game, you open steam and pick the game. It's actually a lot cleaner than having a million desktop icons, and you don't need disks and CD keys and all that rubbish. It really does try quite hard to be a service rather than a chore, which is why I like it. It is technically DRM, but it isn't JUST DRM, it's a really quite useful service, with a lot of features that make PC gaming more enjoyable. Like the overlay system which puts a web browser, chat client, and other steam features into any game. Being able to use it as a manager for your non-steam games to clear desktop space. Having some pretty awesome sales during summer and winter, valve using it to support their really old games better than most any other developer. Steamcloud which keeps your save games backed up for you.

I dislike the idea that people view steam as something like the new securom or some rubbish, it's far more like if someone combined winamp with itunes except for all things games related.

[Shimrod]

It's change; it sucks for some people but it's the way life works

Don't always need to lie down and accept change. For example if nobody bought it they'd remove Steamworks asap, and the consumer wins.

[VincentTH]

Considering I've used steam continuously since 2004, and still play the crap out of the half life games I registered it with, I can say with some definitiveness that buying from steam (especially if you buy valve products) is actually better than buying from a store in terms of longevity. Half life runs as good as the day I bought it, I can't say the same for most of my other games from that era.

It is important not to confuse theoretical risk with practical risk, practically valve is a titan of PC development and probably THE single most promising distributor for the platform. It is highly unlikely that they are going to randomly say you can't play your games or go out of business. it is highly likely that they will continue to support their platform which makes them so much money.

We are not debating whether Steam is great. We are saying Steam does not work for some, or a minority of us.
It works great for you and for me when I am at home, but it does not work for others (and for me, some times).
We are just asking for a non-Steam alternative.

[Chris0132]

It's change; it sucks for some people but it's the way life works

Don't always need to lie down and accept change. For example if nobody bought it they'd remove Steamworks asap, and the consumer wins.

But lots of people will buy it, because steam is a lot better for PC developers than conventional publishing methods. Store publishing is one of the most wasteful practices in the industry, and costs developers a fortune to do, or requires them to make deals with publishers at punitive costs in order to afford.

Steam is much cheaper, comes with lots of useful things like DRM that isn't really DRM to anyone who already owns a steam game, steamworks, an update distribution system, and all sorts of statistical and diagnostic info for devs.

Requiring developers to stick with frankly rather crappy distribution methods seems rather silly to me. PC gaming is kind of an unpopular thing nowadays for developers, steam is one of the few things that makes it better than console development.

[bobxii]

We are not debating whether Steam is great. We are saying Steam does not work for some, or a minority of us.
It works great for you and for me when I am at home, but it does not work for others (and for me, some times).
We are just asking for a non-Steam alternative.

So the next question would be:

Which feature(s) would you like to leave out of the game so Egosoft can support a second release version?

[Shimrod]

Requiring developers to stick with frankly rather crappy distribution methods seems rather silly to me.

When I buy something I tend to do it on the basis of what's in it for me, not the guy trying to flog it. Call me old fashioned.

[Chris0132]

Same, but sometimes that involves thinking about me being a difficult customer is going to put the person out of business and then I don't get to buy anything at all.