Ok, we need to discuss Internal logistic

[ns88ns]

Hi Egosoft and Community.

I would like propose a thing which was absent in previous games and it is still absent in XR: internal logistics.

I mean moving of wares between players station. Trading for credits between player station is good for small enterprises but it is really sucks for production tycsons. We wrote scripts to implement this in each game and it is still not implemented as in-game functionality. Complexes in X3 were really good but wares movement between player's warehouses, separate stations and complexes was realy sucks (sorry for that). But complexes are absent again in XR and internal logistics returned to X2's state. Very inconvinient. And we're still writting the same functionalty again and again.

So is it possible to implement good internal logistics in X4? Perhaps it can be separate NPC or even payable function of Staion Manager NPC or something similar...

I would like to post this in requests of features but I didn't find such thread. Please point me if I missed it and I'll move this post there.

Thank you.

[CBJ]

With the modular stations in X4, I don't think you're going to find that this is a problem.

[ubuntufreakdragon]

Well it was a big issue in x3 and a big issue in xr, in x3 you were able to build complexes(modular stations), so it likely WILL BE A BIG ISSUE in x4.
its mainly an issue for long distance trading, so there is e.g. one system with plently of bogas and another one on the other side of the galaxy with high demand, and some xenon systems in-between and some longer secure route, than you need to build two storagestations and internal logistic to link them.

[Killjaeden]

With the modular stations in X4, I don't think you're going to find that this is a problem.

If there are limits in modules for stations, there will be situations where players are going to want to get over the limits -> logistics/ware distribution between distant stations becomes necessary.

If there was truly no problem with interlogistics in X4, then it would mean the location of a station in the universe doesn't matter, no limits on station growth or capacity per station and no limits on ressource gathering potential would be present.

In X3 station production and storage capacity was limited per station, growth potential for complexes was limited (due to ingame performance) and ressource availability was also limited and dependant on the location in space (asteroid abundancy and yield).
There can be other reasons for interlogistics as well. There are good reasons not to want a production facility where the product is actually needed (maybe because of danger from hostiles e.g. an arms depot for fleet supply)

I highly doubt that this will not apply in X4.

[ns88ns]

With the modular stations in X4, I don't think you're going to find that this is a problem.

We will. Modular stations are good but what about movement of wares between several of these modular stations? Will we trade for credits in manual mode again between playe'r modular stations and standalone warehouses/hubs?

[Rice]

and Most importantly i want to Move Susan to her near dead parents in X:4! And moving Billions of Susan through the Empire from one station to hundreds Stations ...

[Slashman]

and Most importantly i want to Move Susan to her near dead parents in X:4! And moving Billions of Susan through the Empire from one station to hundreds Stations ...

Susie had a LOT of clones. This could be a disaster!

[Seanchaidh]

Modularity can certainly give the player a good workaround (which also happens to save on transport costs) but I don't think it really solves the issue. A solution which requires the player to use a certain strategy of organization (vertical integration rather than horizontal integration) is not really a solution.

One thing that might be interesting is to be able to define more than one station as sharing the same budget, so transactions between them cancel out automatically.

[DavidGW]

One thing that might be interesting is to be able to define more than one station as sharing the same budget, so transactions between them cancel out automatically.

I guess under the new XR world order, what this really means is multiple stations having the same manager. Perhaps like with the cap ships in XR, we could make managers become subordinate to other managers? Could definitely minimise the micromanagement.

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

Simplest would be a manager buying rule that has options such as

Buy from my stations only

My preferred suppliers are .... (an ordered list)

By from nearest stations first.

Don't care get it from where you can... Steal or use force if necessary.

Similar for selling.

[Killjaeden]

Simplest would be a manager buying rule that has options such as
Buy from my stations only
My preferred suppliers are .... (an ordered list)
By from nearest stations first.
Don't care get it from where you can... Steal or use force if necessary.

Similar for selling.

That's not quite the same.
Internal logistics would mean to make a list with stations to supply, what transaction type (with or without money transfer), what conditions for transfer ( min/max stock level on sender, min/max stock level on "target", minimum wares per flight,...).

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

Yes I recall doing something like that very early on. Must have been X2.

After I could build complexes, never ever did it again.

[ubuntufreakdragon]

I see two ways to implement logistics
1 the trade route(Anno, CLS2 like) way:
you simply define waypoints and load/unload actions at these, we additionally need 3 conditions:
when unloading a maximum stock level for the target, e.g. the ship has 100RMP the station 87 and this limit is 100 only 13RMP will be unloaded
when loading a minimum stock level for the target and a maximum stock level for the ship.
pos:
easy to implement
easy to use
no need for blacklisting systems as you can define empty waypoints forming a detour around them
neg:
inflexible
huge micromanagement involved, so waypoints and routes must get a save/load system
2 you define a group of managed stations and per station whether a ware is produced or demanded or both, you give a target stocklevel and limits for a supply or demand request, the traders automatically search for the request with highest priority and link it to on of the other type for the same ware, than the wares are exchanged.(like CLS1)
Good captains may populate this route with additional wares that should be exchanged, too.
pos
flexible
less micromanagement involved
still easy to use
neg
more difficult to code
need of a blacklist and detour system

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

In real life logistics is never done at the level of the vehicle carrying the goods.

Products are delivered to a warehouse. The logistics is done at the warehouse.

Vehicles deliver to consumers from the warehouse. The responsibility of the driver is the route taken. Even this maybe pre-calculated at the warehouse for efficiency.

[Killjaeden]

Yes I recall doing something like that very early on. Must have been X2.
After I could build complexes, never ever did it again.

If you dont have to supply a fleet and only ever build selfsustaining complexes then you might not need it. Evidence was however, that open complexes where much more profitable (leveraging npc stations) and for fleets it reduced micromanagement.

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

I built dozens and dozens of complexes in a game, supplying every kind of weapon and shield, illegal drugs and booze.

These were mega-complexes with multiple products, with multiple factories for each kind of product. I over produced everything so that I had plenty left over to equip any number of fleets not just a single one.

I never required any kind of logistics because all of the resources were also produced within the complex.

I never needed any ships to sell the stuff either. I produced so much weed and booze that almost every single pirate in the universe was blue and friendly.

Now we can build complexes again in X4. So as CBJ indicated why do we need logistics.

Unless you love to micro-manage?

[euclid]

I built dozens and dozens of complexes in a game, supplying every kind of weapon and shield, illegal drugs and booze.

These were mega-complexes with multiple products, with multiple factories for each kind of product. I over produced everything so that I had plenty left over to equip any number of fleets not just a single one.

I never required any kind of logistics because all of the resources were also produced within the complex.

I never needed any ships to sell the stuff either. I produced so much weed and booze that almost every single pirate in the universe was blue and friendly.

Now we can build complexes again in X4. So as CBJ indicated why do we need logistics.....

Exactly! Complex planning and development was for me a most challenging and entertaining part and I'm looking forward to the corresponding modular features of X4.

Cheers Euclid

[ns88ns]

I mean simple things. For example, I have a base site which product basic components like energy and food. It is big site to support all other sites/complexes/standalone stations.

Easy question : why I need build energy and food stations everywhere? I prefer to build only weapon factory in locations with shipyards (for example) and I prefer to build middle-production in locations with NPC hi-tech stations.

So how I should move wares from base site to all these locations. There are a lot of secondary locations. Even in modular stations I have to replicate the same structure many times... Energy - food - mid-term - hi-tech.

Why I can't build only mid and hi tech factories and MOVE (not buy/sell because all these stations belong to me. There are player's stations) basic wares there?

Do you think it really bad idea? Why do you think we are writing logistics mod/patches again and again?

[Nanook]

... So as CBJ indicated why do we need logistics.

Unless you love to micro-manage?

Perhaps because everyone doesn't want to play the same way as you? And for many players, building huge complexes in a single sector caused major lag. Now let me ask you this. All those extra bits and pieces that you produced, how did you get them onto your fleets? You obviously couldn't dock your cap ships at the complexes, so I assume you moved the bits to either your equipment dock or an NPC one. How did you do that? Manually, as in micromanaging, or did you automate the process using CLS? CLS is the antithesis of micromanagement, in case you didn't know.

It's pretty obvious that a large number of players wanted internal logistics capabilities in the games, based on the popularity, and inclusion in the Bonus Pack, of both CLS and CAG scripts. Arguing against such a thing seems a bit silly, IMO.

[Miniding]

A good thing that was in X3AP was the possibility to set commercial routine between stations... and even black list sectors if needed in case of conflict/risk... I think this was a mod but it really was a good way to deal with logistic...

I remember having lots of stations far from each other supplied by traders I told to pick ware from S1, leave it in S2 then pick Something in S2 the.....

Needed a bit of setup but was really efficient... May be it's Something Ego should implement in X4...?