P vs Paranid

[Panzerman]

You cannot really complain about it being op if you use it; that makes little sense.

I'm not really complaining that it alters the game balance drastically, I'm just stating that it actually does

I'm totally down with the "if you don't like it, discard it or mod it" philosophy - like I said, I think that's where X3 really shines. I just don't think it should imply the end of productive analysis or constructive criticism about game features.

[Lelouch]

The TurboBooster in conjunction with a jump drive was the only way to complete some of the pre-3.x luxury transport missions.

[Nanook]

...
The Turbo Booster completely annhilates that balance. ...

Well, I have to disagree with this statement. Yes, it gives you an advantage in combat over the NPC's. But really, what doesn't? To me, it's just one small addition to a player's arsenal.

The TB isn't needed in most cases, anyway, unless you're trying to do something that's totally insane, such as taking on a large Paranid fleet in a P. In that regard, the OP probably never would've even tried such a thing if not for the TB. So he wouldn't have the fun of destroying the fleet.

Now what's more of an imbalance, saving before such a big battle and then doing the dying/reloading thing until you succeed, or just using the TB when you get close to dying so you can continue the fight without interruption?

With all this, I can argue that the TB actually increases the fun factor of the game, rather than vice versa. And really, the bottom line is having fun, not having some nebulous 'balance', IMO.

So if you want to view it as a 'cheat' in your own mind, fine. Personally, I feel that saving/reloading to get some desired result is much more of a cheat or exploit. The TB is just fun!

[deca.death]

And really, the bottom line is having fun, not having some nebulous 'balance', IMO.

(I don't say I disagree with most of things you said but i must add something related to your upper sentence)

But can't you see that's exactly the point? Fun arises from balance. Fun is built from the structure of game balance glues together. No balance - no structure. No structure - no fun. Just antother brainless shooter that will become boring in days. X lasts for years because of it's balance.

[Panzerman]

We're having a meta-discussion here I can see that "cheat" is a loaded word around here, so I'll discard it.

I totally agree that the bottom line is fun. No argument at all from me on that point. Hence the fact that I use the TB anyway despite my argument that it wrecks balance. I'm also not trying to paint this in black and white - just the opposite.

My points regarding balance and the TB are that the TB create situations that allow for:

- Outrunning any missile that poses a threat to your craft
- Creating massive, instant changes in speed that will throw off the gunnery on any weapon that hits hard enough to threaten an M6
- Massively reducing the risk of engaging a superior enemy on account that you can completely break off the engagement at will
- Diminishes the importance of choice between different ship models for the player (they're all monsters with a TB installed)

I think it's safe to state all of that without attatching value judgements to any of it. My arguments for why it's fun are more subjective, but still valid:

- Faster is always better. ZOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!
- My Hyperion is too sexy to not be able to kill everything in the universe.
- Ramming an M5 with a corvette because it's too slow to escape you is just hilarious.
- The fact that MY ship is faster than everyone elses's of the same model makes me feel special.

How I settle this argument personally is self-evident (well, to me anyway) - I use the freakin' TB with gusto. It's awesome - but could it be even awesomer if a critical eye were taken to it with balance in mind? I think so, and that's the spirit in which I'm offering these comments. I don't think balance is some nebulous, frivolous concept - it's at the core of good game design. Even in an open-world game like X3 situations have to be carefully crafted to generate expected outcomes. When the outcomes tend to the absurd (like a lone P smashing the Paranid navy), immersion and fun can potentially suffer.

And I'm right there with you on the save/reload thing, but that's a whole different topic of discussion.

[Sovereign01]

@deca.death - What kind of weapons was the Deimos carrying? I had a similar experience in Ore Belt and got hammered (flying Hyperion) as the Deimos was armed with PSGs. In the end I was forced to retreat and pepper it with missiles.

I'm guessing you had to use a LOT of missiles, with PSGs being what they are and all

[kurush]

Speaking of balance, TB is for people who can't buy themselves a springblossom just yet Once you get it, your need of TB will be likely limited to those "transfer me in 1 min" missions. Now, you can argue that SB is hugely unbalanced. For me it was also a huge fun to fly.
If you feel something is unbalanced, you can always limit yourself to flying, say, a dolphin. If you find that it still didn't make your game balanced enough, you can start flying it backwards

[greypanther]

Sorry nanook, but face imossible odds in real life you ' run ' away. thats how it should be here. No magic get out clause!

[pjknibbs]

- Creating massive, instant changes in speed that will throw off the gunnery on any weapon that hits hard enough to threaten an M6

Just moving the throttle is enough to do that, though--heavy-hitting weapons are so slow that a 10m/s change in speed is often enough to throw off their aim!

[SIMON POPPLEWELL]

@deca.death - What kind of weapons was the Deimos carrying? I had a similar experience in Ore Belt and got hammered (flying Hyperion) as the Deimos was armed with PSGs. In the end I was forced to retreat and pepper it with missiles.

I'm guessing you had to use a LOT of missiles, with PSGs being what they are and all

If you can't beat the bigger guy with a stick, then you have to throw a lot of rocks! That's why I always carry large amounts of Typhoons and Wraiths just for these occasions.

[Lelouch]

I don't understand. Either the Deimos should be 100% missile proof or every missile hits.

If the PSG fires then it doesn't matter if the missile consists of multiple warheads or just a single one. The umbrella kills all of them. If the PSG doesn't fire, then every warhead hits. (Except if shot down by a different turret.)

[Master of the Blade]

The vanilla missile targeting AI has a pause between target changes after it kills a missile. If you keep up a barrage, this means some of the missiles you fired will even slip through a PSG defence. And because that happened, the rest will, because the AI keeps trying to take ~5 seconds to retarget a missile that hits the hull before the gun can fire.

At least, that's what I think happens from reading something Gazz said.

[SIMON POPPLEWELL]

I don't understand. Either the Deimos should be 100% missile proof or every missile hits.

If the PSG fires then it doesn't matter if the missile consists of multiple warheads or just a single one. The umbrella kills all of them. If the PSG doesn't fire, then every warhead hits. (Except if shot down by a different turret.)

You forgetting that front turrets are generally not set to missile defence. So if the ship is flying towards you you should get a lot of free hits in.

[Triaxx2]

True, but not only are there gaps in the coverage, but fast missiles with wide spreads can duck in between volleys and get through.

Plus doesn't it have a blindspot below?

[TBV]

and it's not terribly useful for much else (i.e. as a matter of convenience) because of the cooldown restraints placed on it. It's great for smashing huge fleets of capitals and escorts with an M6, it's not so great for getting across Maelstrom in a hurry because you're tired of looking at empty space and clouds of green stuff.

You just haven't used it enough to judge. Try putting it on a Teladi harrier,
and it'll get you across Maelstrom on shield-energy alone, no worries.
In fact in terms of usefulness for travel and deadlines, it does favour
the smaller, heavily-shielded Teladi ships. Offering a bit of a sweetener for
their pitiful standard speed.

That said, a Harrier with Turbo and MDs is death incarnate, and can kill
any other ship, which isn't too realistic. a lot of fun tho'.

[Nanook]

...
But can't you see that's exactly the point? Fun arises from balance. Fun is built from the structure of game balance glues together. No balance - no structure. No structure - no fun. Just antother brainless shooter that will become boring in days. X lasts for years because of it's balance.

Say what? How do you get "No balance - no structure'? What does that even mean? Sorry, but 'balance' is highly overrated, at least the balance as I understand it. And you can hardly call any of the X games 'balanced'. It just ain't so. The player has massive advantages in every area, which is what makes it fun and playable. Without those advantages, the game would either be very boring or the NPC's would always win, which is really the same thing. IMO, the Turbo Booster is just a minor addition to the player's arsenal of already overwhelming advantages.

Sorry nanook, but face imossible odds in real life you ' run ' away. thats how it should be here. No magic get out clause!

Umm, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that what the Turbo Booster does, allows the player to run away? As for 'impossible odds', sometimes it's just a huge blast to be able to fight them, and possibly even win. Who want's 'real life' in the game anyway? I certainly don't. I don't have to sit in front a computer to get that.

[SIMON POPPLEWELL]

Plus doesn't it have a blindspot below?

Yes, but with the ability to mount PSGs on all it's turrets makes it very dangerous...Luckly I've never run into one that has full PSG coverage.

[Triaxx2]

On the other hand, they can switch weapons if they happen to have spares in the hold.

[Panzerman]

Say what? How do you get "No balance - no structure'? What does that even mean? Sorry, but 'balance' is highly overrated, at least the balance as I understand it. And you can hardly call any of the X games 'balanced'. It just ain't so. The player has massive advantages in every area, which is what makes it fun and playable. Without those advantages, the game would either be very boring or the NPC's would always win, which is really the same thing. IMO, the Turbo Booster is just a minor addition to the player's arsenal of already overwhelming advantages.

I think you're misunderstanding what we mean when we say "balance." It doesn't mean that the NPC's and the player should be on equal terms - that would obviously make for some seriously lame gaming. Rather you can think of it in terms of a balance between ease of play and sense of accomplishment at overcoming challenges. It is expected that the average player should be able to accomplish most challenges presented to them - if it weren't it would be a waste of time to include content that the average player can't utilize.

It's easiest to illustrate this argument by carrying it out to extremes. Introduce a "kill all enemies" button, bind it to your joystick. Fly around in your unarmed Mercury and destroy the galaxy by mashing said button. It's just another minor addition to the player's arsenal of advantages because you were going to win anyway, right? It's fun, right? Not for most, because it upsets game balance.

As far as game balance and structure goes, the two come hand in hand. The different classes of ships are balanced against each other. That doesn't mean an M5 should stand a chance at taking out a Boreas - it means that the M5 and the Boreas should provide greater utility proportionate to the difficulty of obtaining them. The "structure" of different ship classes, racial advantages, weapon advantages, and costs is geared towards achieving a balanced universe in which the player can make meaningful choices about how to overcome different challenges and reach different goals.

The X series works so well in part because it is an extremely well balanced game in that regard. The other reason it works so well is because it's so highly customizable and players are able to balance the game to their liking through use of mods. There still needs to be a reasonable baseline in the standard version of the game, and I don't think turning an M6 into a captial fleet destroying monster for a million credits necessarily falls inside that

[deca.death]

I think you're misunderstanding what we mean when we say "balance."

More or less you've covered most of things I wanted to say. By balance I mean consistency, game has to be true to the rules itself provided. For example: If vettes go from 90 to 170 then one that goes 360 has to have very good reason to do so (and very big drawbacks). If you have to choose between speed, armor and weapon by default no ship should have all.