Old Steam Poll posts split and 'archived'

[henkbein]

but then even without steam, theres still a chance the game wont work either.

OK, assume i'm a Steam user and X:R does not work.
What do i do ?
Cancel my account ?
It seems to be the only right i have on Steam.

But i'm confident my rig can run X:R, so back to my issue:
Can you - Bernd - state: 'You *ARE* able to play offline' ?

[Burneyx]

We are not debating whether Steam is great. We are saying Steam does not work for some, or a minority of us.
It works great for you and for me when I am at home, but it does not work for others (and for me, some times).
We are just asking for a non-Steam alternative.

So the next question would be:

Which feature(s) would you like to leave out of the game so Egosoft can support a second release version?

Well,
if i keep in mind that none of the X-games did need it, i would vote for Steam, or is that an bad answer?

Anyways Steam has some fans:

http://www.best-steam-reviews.com/

greetings

burneyx

[Laden Swallow]

Requiring developers to stick with frankly rather crappy distribution methods seems rather silly to me.

When I buy something I tend to do it on the basis of what's in it for me, not the person trying to flog it. Call me old fashioned.

As does the developer selling the game to the publisher. If the developer gets a larger cut of the profits from selling the game using steam only (via steamworks - introducing people without steam to steam, and probably bought from steam for those people with team), a cheaper DRM option, preventing early release of (full) code from mail order copies (I'm sure I received TC before the release date) making piracy harder, a single update delivery mechanism, and potential multiplayer backing (regardless of whether or not it is necessarily wanted).

[Shimrod]

Again this enumerates benefits from the seller and not the buyer, me, who is worse off with an unwanted Steam service sitting on my PC and moreover with some kind of rental arrangement rather than a game I own.

I'm not a deepsilver shareholder and have no interest in their profit margins. If they want me to buy the game they'll need to sweeten the deal.

[Scott C.]

It's change; it sucks for some people but it's the way life works.

Dig it.

The nature of tech evolution offers a very clear choice to all; Keep up with the times, and the new requirements that come with them, or pick a nice spot to stop, and wave goodbye.

Some folks can/will trail the procession for a bit hurling stones, but they'll tire, and likely regret spending their time on such futile endeavors.... Hopefully they'll recognize the smell of false entitlement, and ditch it before it bitters them.

[Cycrow]

Again this enumerates benefits from the seller and not the buyer, me, who is worse off with an unwanted Steam service sitting on my PC and moreover with some kind of rental arrangement rather than a game I own.

I'm not a deepsilver shareholder and have no interest in their profit margins. If they want me to buy the game they'll need to sweeten the deal.

actually it does give you benefits.
if the seller can sell more copies, cost less to make and update and get more profit. It means theres more likly of updates and additional content. as well as more money to spend on the next game and/or expansions.

so in that way, you do gain as well

[fairywhipper]

ok steamers...

how do you solve this one:
limited internet connection (highest speed = 115.2kps at night time)
monthly download cap = 1gb for all my internet use.

brought game with physical disc
try to install... requires steam.... ok install steam (how big again?), set up steam account.
activate game... it attempts to download from internet (good thing i managed to stop it). ok installed game from disc..
played it for 1 minute (had to goto bed by this time, so only verifyed).
next time,3 weeks later i start the game... no play (ok disgrunted, let it have online till i find a way to stop it. so give up... buy another game... oh look it requires steam for activation, same thing....
.. aha offline mode.... goto offline mode.
turn off internet.... start game.... refuses to work
steam has started a patch.... i cant play the game until it is patched, and cant afford to let it download patch because the patch size > 900mb
2nd game installed ok when i pop to the loo, came back... started a 2.5gb download patch.... 2 games i brought, both required activation only... 2 games i cant play.... wasted 50pounds until i get them going... could cost me more to get them going.

so how do i solve this guys....? throw more money on the bonfire or cut my losses

not everyone has unlimited high speed internet, if i did i would be playing online games and watching po*n like everyone else and not asking for a steam free version.


ah yes, steam was designed for the always on internet people, guess im in the stone age in comparison and the other "minority" people like me.
if you dont ask you dont get, even if we ask and dont get, we can at least try. X has been with me for so long and so much, the wife puts a limit on it and calls it the mistress guess the mistress is moving out.....

[Dantrithor]

fairywhipper:

Ask a friend/relative to download/install the game in their computer, copy the steam installation into a pendrive or portable HD, and move it to your computer. Copy the steamapps folder into your Steam folder, and voilà.

It will probably only require a few Mb's of download to set up your steam installation.

If the game requires constant internet connection to be played... well, that's not really Steam fault, neither a problem found only in Steam.

[Antaran]

Considering I've used steam continuously since 2004, and still play the crap out of the half life games I registered it with, I can say with some definitiveness that buying from steam (especially if you buy valve products) is actually better than buying from a store in terms of longevity. Half life runs as good as the day I bought it, I can't say the same for most of my other games from that era.

Considering ive had my half life disk in the closet since approx the same time then I disagree with your statement that it is better than buying from a store, being a steam game though it still is not working for me, I do have the disks and they work fine, but after trying to install and play it back in the day and giving up I would say that buying games that require steam are WAY worse than buying games that do not need it, hell I still have my diablo cd, still works great.....

Why is it so hard for you to understand that we who have been posting here asking for another alternative to steam have zero interest in Steam, sure it works great for you, but we do not care, we also do not care if it has [insert random useless feature] that you so much love.

It is important not to confuse theoretical risk with practical risk, practically valve is a titan of PC development and probably THE single most promising distributor for the platform. It is highly unlikely that they are going to randomly say you can't play your games or go out of business. it is highly likely that they will continue to support their platform which makes them so much money

You may think of it as "theoretical" [tell that to the people that have had their accounts closed] but the fact is that Steam can and has locked accounts in the past and will continue to do so, it is a fact, so saying it is theoretical is just wrong.

You may be fine with the fact that your account might be closed without warning but I am not , and no matter how much you glorify Steam, this is something that will not change.

But lots of people will buy it, because steam is a lot better for PC developers than conventional publishing methods. Store publishing is one of the most wasteful practices in the industry, and costs developers a fortune to do, or requires them to make deals with publishers at punitive costs in order to afford.

Steam is much cheaper, comes with lots of useful things like DRM that isn't really DRM to anyone who already owns a steam game, steamworks, an update distribution system, and all sorts of statistical and diagnostic info for devs.

Do you have any numbers to back up this claim, that steam is cheaper than all the rest?

[apricotslice]

if steam and onlne system is the future then the PC is dead for gaming...

Steam and digital distribution in general has been the saviour of what until a few years ago was a rapidly declining PC games industry.

Perhaps for some.

As I've said before, I've bought only 3 games in the last 4 years. TC, Sins and Superbox. I've looked at Impulse, now Steam and one of the others linked here, and found nothing worth even looking seriously at, let alone buying. (The screenshots alone put me off most of the time). Sins btw lasted a couple of months with extensive modding, and then I havent even been tempted to go back to it.

I just didnt realize that what I knew of PC Gaming was actually dead. I guess thats what happens when you spend so much time on only one series of games.

Steam is a ONLINE store that allows you to download games, instead of going to the store to buy them. It requires you to authentic the purchase as with any other form of purchase.

Steam hasn't done that to users either, Steam is designed for those with Internet Access and always has been. This is the market it is tailored around and not in anyway an illegal act.

We dont have a problem with that.

What we object to is the box version forcing us to have a good internet connection and then be forced to have a program on our computer we dont want.

If the program is purely download only, then there is no problem.

But a box version should never require access to anything more than a dvd drive.

XRebirth is being developed for steam, they are allowed to make a game for a market they choose. Just like Apple is allowed to make phones for the phone market, Egosoft can make games for steam. They have that right and it isn't breaking any laws.

In that case, they should NOT bring out a box version but make it downloadable only. And in that case, my response is still the same. GAME OVER.

Steam is a program designed around and inheretenly rely on the Internet. Things like Offline mode is meant as an accomodation rather than an alternative. It's meant for people who has shaky connect, or netphobic who don't want to stay on all the times ...etc... but at the end of the day it will still work under the assumtion that it can get online when it needs. Steam does not mean to work with a total black out, you might get lucky if it does, but if you know you're heading into one and still invest in it, any bad luck is your own bad investment. Staying permanent offline is something Steam "might be able to do", but that's not how it's intended or meant to work.

Which is EXACTLY why we want a stand alone NON-STEAM version of XR.

Steam doesnt suit all people. Its not supposed to. You said it, not me.

So FORCING all people to use something it isnt designed to suit everyone is crazy.

When and only when, all people in the world who want to play PC games have a high speed reliable internet connection and the hardware to run it, then and only then can steam become the ONLY option.

Note: only to page 101. Got to stop for a breather, or this post will be too long.

[Shimrod]

so in that way, you do gain as well

I don't begrudge Egosoft profits. However it's my understanding that they are already tapping into the Steam market, and the XR Steamworks exercise is all about cost cutting through severing support for the non Steam version. Particularly since they're still planning to ship boxed copies, I can't see that cost cutting alone (+tages, hosting patches on website) funding many sequels.

[Rednoahl]

For me the cost for Rebirth is high enough - I'll need a new rig to play the game on. That gaming rig will never be connected to the net for any reason. It's sole purpose will be for my single-player gaming pleasure, but it won't get built if the Rebirth requires an internet connection to run. It's a single-player game so why does it need to be connected to the damn net... if it was multi-player I could understand.

As far as I'm concerned, steam requirement to play means the game will be polished on the fly and not properly beta-tested at all; in other words unfinished. It wouldn't surprise me if publishers start to demand the only way we can save games soon will be through services like steam just to cut costs in alpha/beta testing.

[Laden Swallow]

http://www.dereksmart.com/2009/11/esd-p ... ott-steam/
So for baseline Steam wrapped games, you only have delivery, authentication and auto-patching.

But it goes even further than that. Since Steam has a full image of the game on their servers, if you wanted to sell the game direct (e.g. on yours or a partner’s website), all you have to do is give out the Steam keys. The end user then fires up the Steam client, enters the key and downloads the game. Directly from Valve. In fact, thats how we sell Steam versions of our games through BMT Micro (our store frontend) and Digital River. If you have Steam installed, it is a no-brainer. If you don’t, you have a link (in the sale confirmation email) showing you where to download the Steam client from. You install, enter key, download game. Play it.

But here is the kicker. With Steam, in the form of their SteamWorks tech suite, you the developer gets so much more stuff – FOR FREE. Plus not only is it all trivial to implement, the royalties that Valve doles out to Steam publishers is on par with what these other ESD sites give out. And those other sites have no added value service whatsover – unlike Valve which gives you all this stuff and everything you need to be successful on the platform.

Some developer speaking on digital downloads comparing steam with other sites. Basically it amounts to steam pays the same amount of money, but provides many free features, that saves the developer the expense of making their own (such as selling the game on their own website without having to host the game via the sale of CD-keys). Hence steam makes them more money.

http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/opinion- ... team/01887
Since 1997, when 1C’s gaming division was founded, the company worked on a model whereby a title developed and sold by 1C in Russia was then sub-licensed to our great publishing partners.

As a generalisation, retail would pay these guys a maximum of 40 per cent of what they made. So on a £29.99 game the publisher would receive about £12 (and on a sub-licensed deal, we would then only get about £4.25 of that) – minus return, write down and consignment costs.

When would we get that money? Well, payment would be by the end of the quarter.

So, let’s say £10 per unit sale goes to the publisher, £3 to the developer/sub-licensor, and it’s in your bank five months after the customer has paid out £30.

Compare that to the digital model. On a £29.99 sale, the digital partner will pay the publisher – or in many cases direct to the developer – between 60 and 70 per cent, by the end of the month following the sale.

Wow. To recap: on a sale over the counter today, we can have our £3 by the end of March, or on a digital sale, we can have £20 by Christmas.

Remind me why we should choose to go with retail and decline to let Steam sell the game?

Diminishing returns by retailers having overheads themselves, sending less money back to the publishers, who in turn send less money back to the developers.

[Chris0132]

Do you have any numbers to back up this claim, that steam is cheaper than all the rest?

Not offhand, but I am quite certain it's correct, I suppose the easiest solution would be to go on the steampowered website and look at all the one shot or noname developers you've never heard of in the indie section, steam is a haven for companies who otherwise would not be able to get games published.

Sure most of them are crap, most of everything is crap, but you do get the occasional gem, and that low price distribution extends to anyone. Steam simply has vastly reduced costs compared to store distribution, you actually have to buy shelf space in stores, across all the countries you want to sell in, and advertising, and all sorts. Steam distributes everywhere and I would imagine they charge by the filesize, which can be deducted from every sale made. Essentially their distribution method allows for conceivably, distribution with absolutely zero capital. Something unheard of outside the digital distribution market.

Of course none of this is altruistic, by encouraging small devs they encourage innovation, innovation they can then capitalise on in their games, or perhaps the dev's game will get really popular, in which case steam gets more money from sales.

It's good for the developers, they get to make games, it's good for steam, they get to make sales, and it's good for the gamers because they get what amounts to videogame research being conducted, and PC gaming in general gets one of it's biggest advantages nowadays over consoles. It really is win win.

Unless of course you live in a cave with no internet, in which case have fun banging your pointy rocks together or something.

[apricotslice]

So, let’s say £10 per unit sale goes to the publisher, £3 to the developer/sub-licensor, and it’s in your bank five months after the customer has paid out £30.

Compare that to the digital model. On a £29.99 sale, the digital partner will pay the publisher – or in many cases direct to the developer – between 60 and 70 per cent, by the end of the month following the sale.

Wow. To recap: on a sale over the counter today, we can have our £3 by the end of March, or on a digital sale, we can have £20 by Christmas.

Remind me why we should choose to go with retail and decline to let Steam sell the game?

Which totally ignores the fact that a very high percentage of steam sales are only for heavily discounted games during sale periods. And a high percentage of Steam users ONLY buy when prices are heavily discounted.

In which case, the developer is getting much much less than they would from the store sales.

The interesting thing about store discounting is that the store paid the full wholesale price for the game. If they decide to sell it below that, they make a loss, the publisher and developer get the same.

I assume steam doesnt work this way. 60% of a heavily discounted sale isnt going to be very much. So the publisher and developer probably wont get as much as the discounted box would have brought them.

If the publishers are only looking at full price sales and ignoring that a majority of steam sales are heavily discounted, their math is buggered.

[fairywhipper]

fairywhipper:

Ask a friend/relative to download/install the game in their computer, copy the steam installation into a pendrive or portable HD, and move it to your computer. Copy the steamapps folder into your Steam folder, and voilà.

It will probably only require a few Mb's of download to set up your steam installation.

If the game requires constant internet connection to be played... well, that's not really Steam fault, neither a problem found only in Steam.

ah the download to another computer work around... a few mb would be ok, but 2.5gb + 900mb ish = 3.4gb ish.

however, that might not be solution as you install the game onto another computer with steam, doesnt it mean authentification is based on that computer? in which case, then transfering the files back to my computer, then steam would need re authentification, but that would fail because its not the same computer, and i dont know if the EULA would let you do that either..... this idea has been floated on before several pages back by various people. however using a memory stick etc, or by me physically dismantling my rig, ship it to a friends house and download all the patches and activations then set steam to offline there.. this might take a while, then bring it back to mine in order to play a few games which has now been rated as medicore or worse by various places/people..... hmmm oh yea, i might be tempted with steam... the only friend that has the capacity for this job lives 57miles away, taking into account petrol + time or public transport (if there was any), it sorts of costs as much as the game is worth at full market value.... the closer friends have all got download limits which many of them use on average, but still they live only 26miles away... i did mention i work in remote places compared to people who lives in cities, hence likes to play single player non internet games such as X.


These work around on a problem which caused by the idealism of steam and its design to be always on internet transfering data on a system without the resources of such. so i think there might be 2 current solutions:

1) move home and get highspeed internet access etc
2) not use steam

for money reasons, i think option 2 suits me.

and that is the point we minority have been making for 100+ pages, we want a choice that requires no steam.
and for the record man of us are willing to pay for a nonsteam disc version, because we know it cost more for the production of rather than a digital copy. several of us are even willing to wait till after the game is released to buy it, so it is not directly demanding the developers time now, so that they can finish designing and building the game.

[strude]

Which totally ignores the fact that a very high percentage of steam sales are only for heavily discounted games during sale periods. And a high percentage of Steam users ONLY buy when prices are heavily discounted.

I didn't realise that. What are the percentages?

[apricotslice]

Which totally ignores the fact that a very high percentage of steam sales are only for heavily discounted games during sale periods. And a high percentage of Steam users ONLY buy when prices are heavily discounted.

I didn't realise that. What are the percentages?

Ok, you got me there, no hard data.

But there have been plenty of people here state that they only buy steam games when heavily discounted, never at full price.

In fact, some have said thats why they use steam, because it is a cheap source of games.

[fairywhipper]

Unless of course you live in a cave with no internet, in which case have fun banging your pointy rocks together or something.

I found flint gives a spark, you might even get a fire going

[A5PECT]

But there have been plenty of people here state that they only buy steam games when heavily discounted, never at full price.

You do realize that if the price never reached that point (which it rarely does when it comes to physical retailers), then a lot of those people wouldn't buy the game at all? Now where'd Lion Around get to...

So even 10% of a sale is still better than 0% of a sale.