Comm Menu amendment: OOZ Ship build & Commands to ships outside squad(solved)

[ubuntufreakdragon]

Hi, I have argued at Egosoft for a change of Comm menu, they said they did not know whether they'll be fine:
changed moved by the way there isn't any choice that got deleted!

1: Join my squad / Leave my squad
2: New order (when in squad) / Orders (Manager Defence)/ Come back on board (when piloting ship without superior)
3: Assign new superior / Call Architect (when on builder platform) / I want to hire you / Come back on board (when not pilot or commander)
4: Follow me again / Where can I find ...? / Engage: Smalltalk / moneyTransferMenu(Manager)
5: Show Ship Details / Show me your skills
6: Goodbye

1: Join my squad / Leave my squad
2: New order (when in squad or commanded) / Orders (Manager Defence) / Showshiptraders (Manager Not player owned)
3: Assign new superior / Call Architect (when on builder platform) / I want to hire you / Work somewhere else / Come back on board (when not pilot or commander)
4: Follow me again(when in squad and doing something else) / Where can I find ...? / Engage: Smalltalk / moneyTransferMenu(Manager) / Come back on board (when piloting ship without superior)
5: Show Ship Details / Show me your skills
6: Goodbye

Some modified vanilla md files implementing the changes (for testing purposes):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/g2nxzhu448uia0g/md.7z?dl=0
A small prove of concept mod for OOZ Shipbuild as this isn't done yet.

The main issue is about allowing Commands for ships without a Commander.
german topic

By the way this is not meant as something that fixes the hole game or makes cookies, it's just meant as a small step in the right direction.

[mr.WHO]

I'll happily get back to X-Rebirth if I won't have to constantly juggle to and from my squad to issue any command and won't have to fly the damn 3 sectors to order ship build in the shipyards.

[BigBANGtheory]

There are a few issues around this topic all inter-related in their own way, but the principle of being able to command any unit and to give instruction or override it's AI behaviour is essential.

Its got to be tightly integrated into the UI though it can't just be an extension to menu hell.

[Sparky Sparkycorp]

Voted "Yes!!!!!"

I think I would like to nuke "Come back on board" and "You're fired" from orbit. Or at least until Egosoft introduces an "Are you sure?" option

[Pares]

I voted yes. I am not far into the game, finished the main plot not so long ago, just finished expanding the URV factory, but few things bother me so far:

-If I want to remove a ship from a squad of an other ship or station, I must first order it to "join my squad" then right after that I must order it to "leave my squad". I searched everywhere in the menus, details, etc., but so far I didn't find any way to only order it to "Leave current squad".

-It's good that I can order a ship to transfer wares to another ship or station I own only using the trade offers menu, but it won't do the job if I want to transfer more than the demanded amount. In this case I must order the ship to "join my squad" again and do the whole process through the "transfer wares" order.

And while I am doing these "join my squad" orders, I always fear that the ship will boost/jump to me, wasting fuel and time, before I give it the order. I don't know whether there is a time limit regarding how much time do I have giving the ship an order before it begins executing the default "follow me" order, but it's uncomfortable.

I think the default behaviour of the "join my squad" order should be changed from "follow me" to "wait for orders" or "stand by". Or simply, as suggested, giving orders should not be tied to joining the squad...

[linolafett]

How do you order a captain back on board then?

EDIT: To get the captain back on board, you would have first to stop the current task of the captain with "follow me again". Then the button number 4 is free, as the ship is now following you. Thats where we have the only place to add this option.
It may be very confusing for people, who do not know the conditions to get a captain back on the skunk.

[Vandragorax]

I can see what their philosophy was initially with having to tag ships "in your squad" before you can provide them with certain orders, but I agree that it's too limited in scope for late-game empire play.

I'd love to see them expand on this feature in the near future with a revised system of command and control for fleets and ships which you own. It always baffled me why I have to put a mining ship in my squad before I can tell it to start mining in a sector somewhere else!

[BigBANGtheory]

I can see what their philosophy was initially with having to tag ships "in your squad" before you can provide them with certain orders, but I agree that it's too limited in scope for late-game empire play.

I'd love to see them expand on this feature in the near future with a revised system of command and control for fleets and ships which you own. It always baffled me why I have to put a mining ship in my squad before I can tell it to start mining in a sector somewhere else!

Couldn't have said it better myself

[Earth Ultimatum IV.]

Nothing bad with the squad system. Just understand it as "ships I currently use".

[linolafett]

Also ships in squad will react to the "attack" broadcast command.

[Vandragorax]

Also ships in squad will react to the "attack" broadcast command.

Yep, which is REALLY BAD if I have a few fighters, plus some mining ships in my squad.

I have to have mining ships in the squad to tell them to mine, then remove them from the squad otherwise they will attack when I tell the fighters to do so. Then I have to put them back in my squad again to tell them to mine elsewhere.

So it turns into a juggling act moving ships in and out of my squad, until I can afford a capital ship to group the fighters with and issues commands to that instead. But you have the same problem that I can't use the 'all attack' option if I have any miners or traders in my squad with the capital.

It just feels a little messy and could do with a re-work. As for priority, it's probably creeping up the list now that other more critical things seem to be fixed or on-the-way to being fixed

[Sparky Sparkycorp]

How do you order a captain back on board then?

EDIT: To get the captain back on board, you would have first to stop the current task of the captain with "follow me again". Then the button number 4 is free, as the ship is now following you. Thats where we have the only place to add this option.
It may be very confusing for people, who do not know the conditions to get a captain back on the skunk.

If given the choice, I'd restrict "come back on board" to face-to-face and via the captains info page reached via the ship info page. For the following reasons:

1. When in space we cannot see if a ship in front of us is in our squad or not. If you frantically want to issue a retreat-style order, or isuse some other ship-specific order, the last thing we want to do is 'Comm, New Order' thinking in-squad but it be out-of squad and actually have issued 'Comm, Come back on board' when they were out of squad.

2. We cannot as quickly in space issues a come back on board to any other capital crew member so the option for captains is the odd one out for causing confusion rather than the removal of the option from space (captains and pilots) causing a difference for captains.

Ultimately, "Come back on board" is not a particularly crucial option to have such a prominent place in the space-based UI, which I would suggest should focus on regular and/or critical activities or leave blank for future use.

'Come back on board' for captains and pilots is probably mostly only helpful for working around the fact we cannot know skills until they are employed or small-talked or when trying to deal with bugs. Neither of which I would suggest should be considered regular or critical (and doesn't help with other crew types in either case). Weighed against the downside of accidentally bringing a captain back on board when under pressure trying to issue an order via space, that is why I would remove it from space Comm options.

Regarding broadcasts to squad members, I think they were a great addition. If we could issue orders to non-combat ships when they were out of squad and/or if non-combat ships ignored combat-related broadcasts*, I think they would be even more useful.

*Edit: Or perhaps any ship with a DO set to Defense instead of Offense instead of combat vs non-combat ships to offer options and different granularity.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

Also ships in squad will react to the "attack" broadcast command.

Yep, which is REALLY BAD if I have a few fighters, plus some mining ships in my squad.

I have to have mining ships in the squad...

Simple answer might be to have non-combat vessels (and perhaps their sub-ordinates) not respond to the broadcast combat commands (or have the broadcast "combat" commands - or variants there of - explicitly exclude them)? Alternatively, a per ship setting for if they are to respond to broadcast combat commands (for the squad).

[ubuntufreakdragon]

How do you order a captain back on board then?

EDIT: To get the captain back on board, you would have first to stop the current task of the captain with "follow me again". Then the button number 4 is free, as the ship is now following you. Thats where we have the only place to add this option.
It may be very confusing for people, who do not know the conditions to get a captain back on the skunk.

In vanilla it's not visible at all for ships inside the squad, while follow me again is only visible for ships inside the squad -> no collision, by the way it wont be confusing if 4 becomes the general End of Task button.

[BigBANGtheory]

I think "the squad" should be singular and refer to the personal collection of ships that follow the player be that in the skunk, or when docked on a capital ship or station. The squad is then commanded by quick and simple actions from either the radial or ribbon menus job done.

What is left then is everything else, every other ship, unit, station, object etc that is willing and able to accept orders from the player. I think you need groups to handle that such that you issue commands to groups and or individual ships. The player should be given two choices for groups :

1. Temporary group formed just in time by the action of the player selecting a number of ships, for the purpose of receiving commands collectively until the player selects something else.

2. Pre-formed groups where the player assigns ships to designated groups which remain persistent until ship destruction or disbandment of the group by the player.

Ships and units should be capable of being in both the temp group and a pre-formed group at the same time however they will respond to the most recent command over previous commands.

So you don't broadcast anything any more, you command either:
1. your personal squad
2. temporary group of units
3. persistent pre-formed groups
4. singular ships/units

Now if you want to set pre-requisites for forming a group e.g. a certain number of captains NPCs to receive the players orders so be it.

To my mind that works, that gives the player enough flexibility and choice to organise and command as they see fit. What is left then is the commands themselves and method of execution which is drifting off topic a bit so I'll stop there.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

Flat group structures are insufficient IMO, the hierarchy approach should stay. I would hate to see a retro-grade change that moves back towards the old flat "wings" approach.

Top-level commanders and "freelance"/solo/independent ships should be able to be given orders without being in the player's squad though IMO (hence voted yes).

I do not want to see a move to the RTS style on-demand/flat grouping as the primary/only method of commanding units which is what BBT is describing. Optional dynamic grouping of top-level commanders and independent ships would be ok though.

[linolafett]

We had a quick meeting just now.
Conclusion:

We remove the restriction, that you can only give orders to ships in your squad.

You can only give direct orders to ships, if they do not have a superior other than the skunk. (Ships assigned to stations first have to be added to your squad to clear the superior)

The "come back on board" option will be moved from the converation menu to the captain details/info menu. This is because we want to avoid people using shortcuts to accidentialy recall their capatin (c->4). We hope that this is a option, which is only needed in rare situations (when you want to recover a captain before selling a ship at a shipyard) and that the player has enough time to do this action.

These changes will be hopefully avaliable in an upcoming 3.50 beta build.

[Sparky Sparkycorp]

Thank you so much to you, your colleagues, and of course ubuntufreakdragon

[Vandragorax]

That sounds like a wonderful quality of life change, thanks Linolafett! Looking forward to trying it out

[BigBANGtheory]

Once you can command outside your squad (and it seems that will become a reality thanks guys), you need to be careful that the player has some way of organising larger numbers of ships. If say you have 20 ships (could be more could be less) with no superior chances are you do not want to broadcast a command to all of them and have them all do the same thing nor do you want to issue 20 commands manually. Only the player will know how they want those 20 organised be it in hierarchy or flat or something else.

asking the player to do 20 commands manually and repetitively to 20 ships (X3 Reunion style) = bad gameplay to be avoided or at least only tolerated in the short-term if we are talking about progressive change