Techniques for training up Auto Traders

[Scoob]

Hey all,

I'm testing this in the Beta, but it's a more general and not beta-specific question, so I put it here.

AutoTraders, how best to train them up?

Initially, they're VERY limited, but require zero Piloting skill. So that's ok. Also, they can only trade ONE ware within ONE sector. Finding a good, sustainable Sell / Buy Pair isn't always easy, but I have a couple in my game. One sector produces cheap Graphene, with a couple of stations regularly buying it, but not in high volumes. Another sector has a Shipyard and Wharf - Argon Prime - and two producers of Hull Parts. Both of these are keeping the Local AutoTraders mostly busy. They'll have periodic down-time, but they're busy more than they're not. My plan is to get them to three Star Piloting each, so I can use Advanced AutoTrade.

With their one Sector limitation, choosing a sector two two or three clusters has the potential to be beneficial, but for me such sectors that I've uncovered don't present such opportunities at this time. I'm unsure whether levelling up - or the chance of levelling up rather - is linked to the profit a trade makes or just per transaction. I've read conflicting information on this.

So, if you use AutoTraders, how are you most efficiently getting them to Three Star Piloting so they can go advanced? They're really not that useful at the moment.

Note: I also have several manual traders I control. I look at all the deals I'm aware of, and try to find good trade pairing all over the map. Despite being a little clunky - there's no hint at what might or might not be a good trade, until you pick a ware - I've made FAR more profit from this, but those traders have levelled significantly more slowly.

I'd usually use a third-party Auto-Trader replacement, such as the excellent Tater Trader (Dead Tater), but as I'm 100% vanilla for the Beta, I wanted to revisit the regular Auto-Trader.

My AutoTraders have been running for over 24 hrs, yet they've only achieved two stars in PIloting. They got there fairly quickly, but have been stuck at this level for half a day, not progressing any further. I wish they were better!

[LameFox]

Personally I would not actually use auto trading to train them. Just like you've seen, I rarely find good places for it, and those are usually such that they can only support a small number of S traders. I've done it before and they level so slowly I'd have got other 3 star pilots before they get there.

If you want them early on, grab some of your scout pilots. These are the only things that genuinely seem to level piloting fast in vanilla. Later, you should start to get 3 star pilots amongst station trade subordinates. My mining depot stations use M miners to distribute wares and those things are *always* busy. They start to reach 3 stars and seem to cap out at that point, so if you have them and want traders or advanced formations for a fleet leader you may as well reassign these.

[BitByte]

I train my captains in active fighting as they protect mining areas where Kha'ak ships often are shown. For those protection fleets I use either Minotaur Raiders (4+ is already very efficient) from SCA / BUC or Xenon PEs (5+ ships in fleet) or Xenon PEs (3+) in areas where Xenon sends their SE ships to gather resources (assuming it's not hostile area).
I often choose captains that they would have 1 star and then I may give them 1-star pilot seminar to reach 2 stars level. If urgent situation and I have already made mission which have granted 2-stars pilot seminar I can give that to pilot too.
Otherwise I rely my traders to operate under stations as station managers gain experience very fast so it will allow ships to travel longer distances.

Local AutoMine is feature I have used in my current game (started with version 7.10) but it's for rep & small income not for experience.

[Scoob]

Yeah, I get that. I do have other Crew that have gained three Stars in Piloting. However, they're doing that in COMBAT, not Trading. I just cannot bring myself to use a trained Combat Pilot in a trade ship lol. Same with Explorers, I just don't like training someone up in one discipline, then assign them to another - even though they're the same (Piloting) as far as the game is concerned.

What I was hoping for were some tips in training up a Trader using Trading so they can Trade better. Skills should progress naturally, not have to be forced by working other roles. That's my thinking any way.

I do feel the game is missing something, certainly a strong sense of true pilot progression, when cross role "training" is required to do one job. That job being trading.

When running a modified game, Tater Trader (Dead Tater) is just so good. It sees the same trades the player does, but it's automated. It is perhaps a little too good at times, able to trade ALL wares from the get go, but it only works of what the player knows.

What I've done in the past, is to simply have extra Warehouses. I set them to buy and sell appropriately. They'll then roam one or two sectors (depending on their level) buying wares cheap and delivering them to a station. Other traders will then sell those wares, at a modest profit to the economy. I've had such stations be a major passive income source. I might just set one up again in a relatively central location.

[Raptor34]

Are vanilla ATs even good? I run them for free travelling around and also for specific shipyard force feeding, but are they generally useful? It feels like a trading station would be better, and with the upcoming patch you can even auto replenish them.

[LameFox]

Well, if it absolutely must be done by trade, maybe set up an early factory for something always in demand like medical supplies. And use fast moving small ships with a decent cargo, like a Kestrel. That should maximize the amount of trading they do while still being actually useful.

[Imperial Good]

Short answer is... You do not train them.

You instead train a manager at a manager training school (these stations can 0 to 4 star a manager in a minute or two by abusing optimised repeat commands) and then use the manager to boost the auto trade range of even the worst skilled pilots to 5 sectors.

In theory an inverted manager training school could be used to train traders, but this is unlikely to get them past 3 stars even after hours of doing the most optimum trade as fast as possible. And then you would need to assign them to ships one-by-one. Far easier to do it with managers. There is now even a purpose to owning a station in every sector, the radar module.

[BitByte]

Are vanilla ATs even good? I run them for free travelling around and also for specific shipyard force feeding, but are they generally useful? It feels like a trading station would be better, and with the upcoming patch you can even auto replenish them.

Depends what you mean "good" and "useful". Personal opinion is that it works fine.
In long-term game I have plenty of Adv. AutoTraders which operate very well. Like for example in Avarice I have 1 Adv. AutoTrader handling medical supplies and another for Food Rations. Both of them are all the time travelling between Windfall (buy) and Avarice (sell). In Wretched Skies-Litany of Fury I have Inca SE operating as Adv. AutoTrader for mid resources like Refined Metals, Graphene, Superfluid Coolant and few M-size local AutoTraders handling Soja Husk & Mecial Supplies trading due Paranid does not have own traders in the area (no their own shipyard nearby just mine where they don't for some reason by any ships).

[EGO_Aut]

I make good pilots on a very simple way - Early Game:
Every station has traders, buy skill books
Try missions to get skillbooks
Buy a pilot for your playership, he will automatic gain exp whenever you do something in the ship.
As soon as i have a 2. Ship, i let it scout and open container
Small mining complexe with S ships, gain much faster exp than M or L - same with trade ships (low cargo space), but miner are more useful

Med game:
Terraforming (but i dont do that boring stuff )
There are misdions where you can get a L ship with mods and a good captain/crew

I dont like autotraders, but good pilots in my XL,L & pers ships

[Scoob]

Thanks for the replies.

I think the answer here is either cheese it, or they're a bit rubbish. I was hoping, after not playing with them for a very long time, that perhaps things had improved and they could naturally progress through trading. However, that's does not appear to be the case.

I've just relocated my two, as opportunities have opened up in Black Hole Sun IV and V. However, when relocating them, I noticed one of them had started visiting neighbouring Sector, despite just being a local trader. Do they gain the ability to roam a bit further now, even while remaining a Local Trader?

Still reckon my technique of setting up a warehouse to buy/sell wares selected by me is a far better option. It's what I did during a prior beta and, while it was initially a bit of a credit sink - ship prioritise Buying over Selling and get a bit stuck if they WANT to buy, but need to SELL something first to raise the funds - once it took off it was a steady earner. Plus the supported allied economies thrived because of it.

Yeah, I think that's what I'll do for an additional passive income stream. I already have a "raw materials" warehouse in BHS IV, might was well add some Container storage to it...

[TheDeliveryMan]

I'm unsure whether levelling up - or the chance of levelling up rather - is linked to the profit a trade makes or just per transaction. I've read conflicting information on this.

I'm writing this from memory, I can dig up current numbers later.

Everytime a trader buys something pilot and crew have a chance to gain a skill or morale point (1/3 star). Everytime a trader sells something pilot and crew have a chance to gain a skill/morale point.

Trades come in three catergories: good, normal and bad. Good trades give a better chance to gain a skill point than normal trades. Bad trades give the lowest chance and can also result in the loss of morale.

Buying below (min_price+avg_price)/2 is a good trade. Byuing above (max_price+avg_price)/2 is a bad trade. Anything in-between is a normal trade.
Selling above (max_price+avg_price)/2 is a good trade. Selling below (min_price+avg_price)/2 is a bad trade. Anything in-between is a normal trade.

For example Energy Cells with a price range from 10 Cr to 22 Cr, average is 16 Cr:
good trade: buying below 13 Cr, or selling above 19 Cr
normal trade: selling or buying in the range from 13 Cr to 19 Cr
bad trade: buying above 19 Cr, or selling below 13 Cr, unless the trade partner is of the same faction, then it is a normal trade

The percentage of the ship's cargo hold being bought is also important. The chances are highest when trading full cargo loads.

So small and fast ships are best.

I'd use repeat orders to increase the frequency of good trades.

[taztaz502]

I buy pilots on stations very close to 1 star piloting then i give them a basic pilot seminar and a 1* seminar which brings them upto very close to 3*.

Then you can set them to mine or something, if you need to boost their morale to gain the 3* stick them on a station builder as crewman and have them build something. This will boost their morale and engineering.


(I have a station builder empty of crew where i send all my shot down crewmen i rescue to train them up)

[Scoob]

I'm writing this from memory, I can dig up current numbers later.

Everytime a trader buys something pilot and crew have a chance to gain a skill or morale point (1/3 star). Everytime a trader sells something pilot and crew have a chance to gain a skill/morale point.

Trades come in three catergories: good, normal and bad. Good trades give a better chance to gain a skill point than normal trades. Bad trades give the lowest chance and can also result in the loss of morale.

Buying below (min_price+avg_price)/2 is a good trade. Byuing above (max_price+avg_price)/2 is a bad trade. Anything in-between is a normal trade.
Selling above (max_price+avg_price)/2 is a good trade. Selling below (min_price+avg_price)/2 is a bad trade. Anything in-between is a normal trade.

For example Energy Cells with a price range from 10 Cr to 22 Cr, average is 16 Cr:
good trade: buying below 13 Cr, or selling above 19 Cr
normal trade: selling or buying in the range from 13 Cr to 19 Cr
bad trade: buying above 19 Cr, or selling below 13 Cr, unless the trade partner is of the same faction, then it is a normal trade

The percentage of the ship's cargo hold being bought is also important. The chances are highest when trading full cargo loads.

So small and fast ships are best.

I'd use repeat orders to increase the frequency of good trades.

Thanks. I assume for player-asset to player-asset trades, the prices are used even if not credits change hands? Also, do you know what impact other Factions buyer from a player-owned station has? I have a Solar Power Plants that's made over 50 million credits, yet the Manager is only one Star in management.

I buy pilots on stations very close to 1 star piloting then i give them a basic pilot seminar and a 1* seminar which brings them upto very close to 3*.

Then you can set them to mine or something, if you need to boost their morale to gain the 3* stick them on a station builder as crewman and have them build something. This will boost their morale and engineering.


(I have a station builder empty of crew where i send all my shot down crewmen i rescue to train them up)

I've often done that, as seminars can give a fairly large boost. However, I had a number of Pilots that were just under one Star Piloting, but they'd NOT accept - greyed out - basic seminar, they needed the next one up. Will grab some more seminars and test that further, as it doesn't seem quite right to me.

It's weird really. I have several stations:

1st: A Solar Power Plant that's made over 50 millions as mentioned.
2nd: A Warehouse that's mostly just hoarding Raw Materials for later in the game, but sells some Ore and some Nividium. This station has made 4 million credits.

The Manger for the first station, which has been active longer, is just one Star Management as mentioned, however, the Manager of the second station is two Star Management.

Now, the 1st station has made more than 10x the credits, BUT the second station is constantly "buying" from its own miners delivering raw materials to it. So, while numbers matter - as you kindly detail - even zero sum transaction are counted.

My aim this game, as I started fresh for the beta, was to set up supporting infrastructure first. So, Energy Cells (which I sell to other Factions currently), all raws, then Food and Meds production - which is up and running nicely - when, when I have the credits, I'll add Habs to improve efficiency, then I'll start adding Tier 1, 2 and 3 production before building my first Wharf. To this end, I need CREDITS, but I'm not doing so well earning as I usually would.

Usually, a Raws warehouse selling to local Factions would raise the bulk of my funds. However, the game is doing a far better job having Factions feed their own stations. One assumes due to direct ship assignment. As a result, the opportunities I'd usually exploit don't really exist. Energy Cells are a steady earner - I'm the cheapest lol - but outside of that my passive income is really low. This is the main reason I wanted to look at Auto-Traders again.

What I might do, taking advice from here, is indeed take a Pilot trained in another skill - exploration or combat - and assign them to a Transporter or Freighter. Then I'll test out an Advanced Autotrader performs. That said, my Buy / Sell Warehouse is ramping up, and has moved solidly in to profit now, having built up stock of certain wares.

[BitByte]

Also, do you know what impact other Factions buyer from a player-owned station has? I have a Solar Power Plants that's made over 50 million credits, yet the Manager is only one Star in management.

As far as I have noticed impact is 0 as you won't gain reputation from that either. If that would have affect then for example player should gain rep and manager exp if FAF buys ships from player shipyard / wharf.
Only active trading (player ships / station own ships) have influence.

[taztaz502]

I've often done that, as seminars can give a fairly large boost. However, I had a number of Pilots that were just under one Star Piloting, but they'd NOT accept - greyed out - basic seminar, they needed the next one up. Will grab some more seminars and test that further, as it doesn't seem quite right to me.

It's weird really. I have several stations:

1st: A Solar Power Plant that's made over 50 millions as mentioned.
2nd: A Warehouse that's mostly just hoarding Raw Materials for later in the game, but sells some Ore and some Nividium. This station has made 4 million credits.

The Manger for the first station, which has been active longer, is just one Star Management as mentioned, however, the Manager of the second station is two Star Management.

Now, the 1st station has made more than 10x the credits, BUT the second station is constantly "buying" from its own miners delivering raw materials to it. So, while numbers matter - as you kindly detail - even zero sum transaction are counted.

My aim this game, as I started fresh for the beta, was to set up supporting infrastructure first. So, Energy Cells (which I sell to other Factions currently), all raws, then Food and Meds production - which is up and running nicely - when, when I have the credits, I'll add Habs to improve efficiency, then I'll start adding Tier 1, 2 and 3 production before building my first Wharf. To this end, I need CREDITS, but I'm not doing so well earning as I usually would.

Usually, a Raws warehouse selling to local Factions would raise the bulk of my funds. However, the game is doing a far better job having Factions feed their own stations. One assumes due to direct ship assignment. As a result, the opportunities I'd usually exploit don't really exist. Energy Cells are a steady earner - I'm the cheapest lol - but outside of that my passive income is really low. This is the main reason I wanted to look at Auto-Traders again.

What I might do, taking advice from here, is indeed take a Pilot trained in another skill - exploration or combat - and assign them to a Transporter or Freighter. Then I'll test out an Advanced Autotrader performs. That said, my Buy / Sell Warehouse is ramping up, and has moved solidly in to profit now, having built up stock of certain wares.

The reason you can't give them a basic seminar is because their pilot skill is 1* or above, the reason their total is below 1* is because they have low morale, which will lower their overall rating.
(Also not sure if it still happens but when you set them to captain they used to get a boost to their pilot skill, so give them seminars before assigning them to captain.)

As for stations they are too difficult for me to really track to be honest, i just leave them to do their thing and don't really rely on them for early money unless as you say they are energy cells or mining stations.

Also the only two skills that will effect a pilot is morale and pilot which changes the overall rating, and in my opinion the only way it effects them is by unlocking the scripts to perform certain tasks. (Have heard they actually perform better, never witnessed it in 2800 hours of gameplay.)

Few ways to make money early game, sell adv sats to wharf, attack SCA ships, board their large freighters and destroyers, get rep 10 and do faction missions, specifically fleet build. Early game you can get missions to build fighters/frigs for good money using other faction wharfs.

[Scoob]

The reason you can't give them a basic seminar is because their pilot skill is 1* or above, the reason their total is below 1* is because they have low morale, which will lower their overall rating.
(Also not sure if it still happens but when you set them to captain they used to get a boost to their pilot skill, so give them seminars before assigning them to captain.)

As for stations they are too difficult for me to really track to be honest, i just leave them to do their thing and don't really rely on them for early money unless as you say they are energy cells or mining stations.

Also the only two skills that will effect a pilot is morale and pilot which changes the overall rating, and in my opinion the only way it effects them is by unlocking the scripts to perform certain tasks. (Have heard they actually perform better, never witnessed it in 2800 hours of gameplay.)

Few ways to make money early game, sell adv sats to wharf, attack SCA ships, board their large freighters and destroyers, get rep 10 and do faction missions, specifically fleet build. Early game you can get missions to build fighters/frigs for good money using other faction wharfs.

That would be a valid reason for them not to accept the Seminar, however, they WERE below one star in Piloting, which is why I tried to give them a basic Seminar. That's why I found it odd.

I'm making decent credits actively, boarding ships, forcing bails etc. I generally keep the ship but sell off any excess equipment. Plus I tend to normalise everything at Mk2 Engines and Thrusters and more basic weapons, with anything else making me more money. I'm also actively taking missions - anything to do with destroying Kha'ak or Xenon - as well as anything else that pays well. It's the passive income side that's lacking a bit. My SPP is making steady credits, but profits have dropped from 5-6 Million per "page" in the log, to around 3, as I've had to lower my pricing. Lower pricing also means there's lower demand so less bought per transaction. I have Miners selling off Nividium and excess Ore, which give some extra cash and the Warehouse is starting to turn a slight profit.

The thing about keeping Military ships is having them earn for me. This involves taking Kill Kha'ak / Xenon type missions and having THEM satisfy that. They don't get payouts from regular kills - even with a Police Licence - but they do get mission kills.

I'm just adapting to playing a vanilla game again. Certain things in vanilla are MUCH easier, really, quite significantly so, other things, well, not harder as such, but I haven't got the same tools. As part of testing, I'm trying to largely play normally so I can see things that might impact me in a regular game. However, I do want to get to the more advanced new stuff, but I need a Wharf of my own to test that. Not there quite yet.