Do the factions of the Commonwealth deserve to get XL destroyers?

[S!rAssassin]

IMO, "Asgard to all factions" isn't good idea. It's will devalue TER Asgard, even Erlking! But Commonwealth lacks XL capital ships with high durablity. XEN K-type ships are nice balansed to high durablity and firepower and can serve as migtht spine of any fleet. But Commonwealth has only XL carriers and XL resupplers as ships with strong shields, as fleet's core.

So IMO, Commonwealth deserve to get XL Destroyer, like XEN K, without main guns, but with strong XL shield, and with many turrets of couse

[CBJ]

There's nothing like a poll that only contains options that support the OP's premise.

[S!rAssassin]

There's nothing like a poll that only contains options that support the OP's premise.

Added third option. Please, vote!

Maybe, you prefer push "Super carrier" doctrine fleet against "Super cruiser" doctrine fleet? Commonwealth fleet lacks heavy armor, but have enouth smallcrafts with missiles and torpedoes; Xenon lacks repair-and-resupply, but have tonns of armor and crude firepower... Modern warfare against old doctrine. I'm right?

[LameFox]

I think some variety in XL direct-combat ships would be nice. L ships too for that matter. I don't want them to all work like a variation of the Asgard, but I do want them to exist. Personally I fully reject this notion I saw in the reddit FAQ that not adding them creates variety between factions. You could maybe claim only one faction having any sort of battleship is "variety" if those other factions were instead fielding their own unique thing which fills that gap in their combat ability, but laughably, the only faction to field a real battleship is also the only one that gets multiple direct-combat L ships (not counting deprecated destroyer variants laid to rest by E ships).

[Flippi]

IMO, "Asgard to all factions" isn't good idea. It's will devalue TER Asgard, even Erlking! But Commonwealth lacks XL capital ships with high durablity.

First things first. Neither the Asgard, nor the Erlking are battleships despite what the game calls them. The Asgard is an artillery piece, a sniper rifle if you want to call it that way. And the Erlking is the literally perfect definition of what a battlecruiser is. Having specialised ships is not a problem. It makes factions more unique if they do get some of those specialised ships. But basing their entire fleet around those is a problem. Also the Erlking is a unique player only ship, so not relevant for NPC factions.

XEN K-type ships are nice balansed to high durablity and firepower and can serve as migtht spine of any fleet. But Commonwealth has only XL carriers and XL resupplers as ships with strong shields, as fleet's core.

That isn't the only issue. The numbers and economies just aren't there unless we are counting player interference. In another thread, I wrote down some numbers for NPC fleets. People can use the same mod and get the fleet numbers at different stages of the game themselves if they want to check. And the fleet numbers aren't there for many factions. The strategic AI of all NPC factions is also not very good. They don't make effective use of their assets unless specific mods are used. So the lack of battleships is made worse by that too.

So IMO, Commonwealth deserve to get XL Destroyer, like XEN K, without main guns, but with strong XL shield, and with many turrets of couse

This is a common request. And considering there are mods already helping out in that regard, some people have been doing good work there too. Just don't use the X Rebirth ship pack, unless you want to see what happens when the Xenon have 65 XL ships available (plus probably some other additions). Spoiler alert, it's not pretty for anyone except the Xenon (and maybe the player).

There's nothing like a poll that only contains options that support the OP's premise.

I agree. There seems to be a total confusion among players as to what others would like to see. So having a poll like that doesn't help anyone. This is especially true because of the very often brought up topic about "main gun cap ships can't hit enemy" topics.

There's nothing like a poll that only contains options that support the OP's premise.

Added third option. Please, vote!

Maybe, you prefer push "Super carrier" doctrine fleet against "Super cruiser" doctrine fleet? Commonwealth fleet lacks heavy armor, but have enouth smallcrafts with missiles and torpedoes; Xenon lacks repair-and-resupply, but have tonns of armor and crude firepower... Modern warfare against old doctrine. I'm right?

For any carrier fleet to work, the AI would first, have actual fighters to spare and secondly, use them in a not dumb way. That can be a bit difficult to achieve.

I think some variety in XL direct-combat ships would be nice. L ships too for that matter. I don't want them to all work like a variation of the Asgard, but I do want them to exist. Personally I fully reject this notion I saw in the reddit FAQ that not adding them creates variety between factions. You could maybe claim only one faction having any sort of battleship is "variety" if those other factions were instead fielding their own unique thing which fills that gap in their combat ability, but laughably, the only faction to field a real battleship is also the only one that gets multiple direct-combat L ships (not counting deprecated destroyer variants laid to rest by E ships).

I agree. I also believe that a discussion would be more useful than a poll. Especially because there are people thinking that some players want copy/paste Asgards for everyone.

As a last thing I want to say is. People really need to play other games. I know I bring it up a bit too often, but Games like StarSector (and others) can show everyone how to make ships with unique features and gameplay. From Broadsider cap ships, to combat freighters, to battle carriers or fleet carriers, to phase ships, and so on.

[gbjbaanb]

Absolutely not.

However, they do need better carriers. Compare the split raptor to any of the other commonwealth's carriers and you'll see their are jokes. The new colossus (cool design BTW) has capacity for 16 fighters. That's less than a mining ship (most have storage for 40 S class ships, the Colossius E can carry only 28)
Compare defences, colossus gets 1 L and 16 M turrets. Raptor has 8 and 93!

I often think the races should have something remotely comparable, or at least competitive with each other's races to allow for diversity in player choices. Right now, there are a lot of ships but very few that get used.

[S!rAssassin]

I also believe that a discussion would be more useful than a poll.

Discussion is welcome, despite the presence of a poll. I'm really interested in your unique opinion

[LameFox]

Absolutely not.

However, they do need better carriers. Compare the split raptor to any of the other commonwealth's carriers and you'll see their are jokes. The new colossus (cool design BTW) has capacity for 16 fighters. That's less than a mining ship (most have storage for 40 S class ships, the Colossius E can carry only 28)
Compare defences, colossus gets 1 L and 16 M turrets. Raptor has 8 and 93!

I often think the races should have something remotely comparable, or at least competitive with each other's races to allow for diversity in player choices. Right now, there are a lot of ships but very few that get used.

You don't want more of a ship there aren't many of, but you want carriers to be more interchangeable...? This actually sounds like asking for less variety, like how things were at launch. The reason the newer ones have lower capacity is because at release all ships had a bunch of stats that were basically duplicates. They've been moving away from this but seem reluctant to modify old ships, so it happens when they add an E variant. Personally I wish they'd bite the bullet and rebalance the ones that aren't being replaced, maybe try to have it so that if someone has crammed 40 S ships into a miner for some reason, they all get kicked out into space on load.

The Raptor is actually an example of what I want more of. Every major faction has a carrier, but not all carriers are the same. That is a good kind of variety, because it creates more ships to use and encounter. And while the Raptor excels in fighter capacity and turrets, it has junk shielding, only one M pad, and a low cargo capacity relative to its fighters should it want to resupply consumables on them.

[Flippi]

I also believe that a discussion would be more useful than a poll.

Discussion is welcome, despite the presence of a poll. I'm really interested in your unique opinion

I mean, I can give you a description on how I would design XL Destroyers / Battleships. But that would be a lengthy post. And still only limited to the basics with no special, unique ships. Others have done even more, like the modders who created ships that fulfill certain niche roles already (example: Axeface's Cyclops).

We can also discuss fleet sizes of different factions, which is another major problem in X4. Because some factions simply don't field a lot of military ships. ANT especially is busted in that way. And adding XL ships for them wouldn't help them as much without support and economy to keep them active.

[PersonyPerson]

No. Because it will completely disrupt all the power dynamics and the balance of the game.

They may eventually look awesome, but the Commonwealth factions simply don't need them. Their strongest ships are their L-class destroyers. The Xenon K is only marginally better. It's like that so the K can be a real threat to it's opponents and defeat other destroyers 1v1, but not so much of a threat that it will destroy everything in their way. That's supposed to be the I's job. Xenon Ks (and Is) already get regularly taken out by Commonwealth battlegroups and defence stations.

If you give XL class destroyers to the Commonwealth factions, then everyone else (especially the Xenon) would be significantly weaker, especially on a strategic level. The Xenon K would be next to useless and the Xenon as a whole would lose a lot of their offensive power. You'd also by proxy weaken the Terrans too. It would also destroy the lore narrative that the Terrans are vastly superior to the other factions (which is why nobody touches them post-Terran Conflict... fear).

If it were to happen, then you'd need to also give the other factions new ships to balance it out. You'll then be power creeping and reducing the effectiveness of every ship smaller than it. It would be a mega L to S ships.

[Flippi]

No. Because it will completely disrupt all the power dynamics and the balance of the game.

No, it wouldn't.

They may eventually look awesome, but the Commonwealth factions simply don't need them.

Also wrong. Especially when looking at fleet sizes of different factions.

Their strongest ships are their L-class destroyers. The Xenon K is only marginally better.

No it isn't. The Xenon K has much better shields, is as fast as the Behemoth and Phoenix, faster than Terran ships and has more hull than any destroyer except the Rattlesnake.

It's like that so the K can be a real threat to it's opponents and defeat other destroyers 1v1, but not so much of a threat that it will destroy everything in their way. That's supposed to be the I's job. Xenon Ks (and Is) already get regularly taken out by Commonwealth battlegroups and defence stations.

Xenon K only have to fear Defence stations. But not for long. After a while, the Xenon will whittle them down eventually. Most factions that border the Xenon do not have the best fleets, with the Paranids and the Terrans being the exception. The Teladi are highly dependant on circumstances.

If you give XL class destroyers to the Commonwealth factions, then everyone else (especially the Xenon) would be significantly weaker, especially on a strategic level.

No they wouldn't. As I have written in another thread, the Xenon can replace their losses laughably easy. Also, the map the way it's set up, and the way sector conquest works, heavily favours the Xenon.nd just so you know, Egosoft had to nerf the Xenon in older versions, because they were doing better than intended. And they also had to buff the Split so they survive longer. The Xenon really are fine, despite the nerfs they received. And they will continue to be fine with battleships added into the game.

You'd also by proxy weaken the Terrans too. It would also destroy the lore narrative that the Terrans are vastly superior to the other factions (which is why nobody touches them post-Terran Conflict... fear).

No it wouldn't weaknen the Terrans. They have a better economy than the Commonwealth, much safer Sectors, no pirates able to disrupt their trade and Kha'ak not able to disrupt mining significantly. The Terrans also have a relatively well balanced fleet compared to other factions. Their cap ships overall are better than commonwealth counterparts.

If it were to happen, then you'd need to also give the other factions new ships to balance it out. You'll then be power creeping and reducing the effectiveness of every ship smaller than it. It would be a mega L to S ships.

Your entire point of things being imbalanced simply isn't founded in reality. Just to let you know, there are several mods that already add battleships, larger L ships, XL trading and mining ships and all of that. And not a single one weakens the Xenon or the Terrans for example. So Sorry if that sounds rude, but you have no idea what you are talking about.

If the mod community is able to prove your point wrong, then you are complaining about things that don't exist. There are numerous other factors that are more important for the overall balance of the game than XL ships.

[GCU Grey Area]

No - I don't consider them necessary. Would prefer time & effort that could be used to make them to instead be used to make additional S-L size ships.

[EGO_Aut]

I voted NO - i hate Asgard, Erlking and Raptor No realy, there are enough OP ships.

[S!rAssassin]

And adding XL ships for them wouldn't help them as much without support and economy to keep them active.

If ships has been added, also being added jobs to make them used by factions.

Players, role playing only one faction techs, will get more options to configure their fleets.

Especially, Boron players will be glad Boron don’t have dedicated station destroyer.

[Flippi]

And adding XL ships for them wouldn't help them as much without support and economy to keep them active.

If ships has been added, also being added jobs to make them used by factions.

Players, role playing only one faction techs, will get more options to configure their fleets.

Especially, Boron players will be glad Boron don’t have dedicated station destroyer.

Of course, but people do not seem to understand in the slightest how busted the different factions are in terms of nominal fleet strength. People really believe that each and every faction runs around with dozens or hundreds of cap ships, when that is not the reality. Also map design has a gigantic influence on how well or bad a faction does. And the Xenon are one of the most entrenched Factions right now. Only the Terrans have a better location for their economy and also a really simple one too.

To give you an example:

The Argon Federation has around 700 ships. 5 - 6 of them are XL sized, split into carriers and resupply ships. If Egosoft adds Battleships, we would be looking at around 1-2 Battleships, maybe 2 - 3 at best for ARG following that distribution. And even that would be a stretch. In terms of L sized ships, they have less than 20 so, between 15 -17 I think. My game may be not accurate here due to the addition of the Cyclops heavy Frigate, which is a small L ship. But vanilla should have a similar number of ships here, maybe even less.

Meanwhile, TER are sitting around 800 ships. 15 -16 of them XL sized, split into Tokyo, Asgard and resupply ships. Not sure the ratio here in terms of Asgards, but I haven't seen too many of them either. In terms of L sized ships, the Terrans have a whopping 40 something flying around. That means, Osakas and Syns. So the Terrans have a superior fleet despite having a similar number of ships than the Argons. ANT doesn't even field XL ships except one resupply ship or so, and they certainly don't have more Behemoths than ARG.

The Xenon start with 1200 ships. 40 to 41 XL ships, no L ships (patch 6.20) and the rest is the usual M and S sized Trash. And the Xenon also have a simpler economy, no pirates disturbing them, and a map design that favours them heavily, while they are able to dish out high damage to hostile economies.

And if you add mods with ship packs and such, the Xenon continue to do the exact same as in vanilla. They take sectors, drain enemy resources, and slowly overcome their enemies. The Xenon win through war of attrition. Very lore friendly, and very effective in X4. Xenon Sectors also happen to have some of the most resources in the game.

[GCU Grey Area]

Especially, Boron players will be glad Boron don’t have dedicated station destroyer.

Not me. Playing a Boron game right now & my Rays are doing absolutely fine for station demolition (I just use a few more of them). Just to be clear, this Boron player would NOT be glad for dev time to be wasted on adding a Boron battleship. Would very much prefer a Boron frigate instead (still somewhat miffed that that my favourite faction doesn't have my favourite ship class).

[lionroot]

.

[Ragnos28]

If memory serves me, the Commonwealth used to have XL destroyers.
For example, the argon Titan: https://roguey.co.uk/x3tc/ships/ship-12/
and the paranid Odysseus: https://roguey.co.uk/x3tc/ships/ship-85/

And while I consider that the number of "L turrets" of X3TC destroyers is overkill for X4 universe, something like 4 L turrets in front (2 up 2 down), 4 on each side (same, 2 up 2 down) and about 24 M turrets (8 up 8 down + 4 up 4 down in the rear) would be feasible.
Because right now, the conventional destroyers are just cannon fodder for the Ks, I recently saw a single xenon K killing 10 MIN Phoenix, 1 Condor and 1 aux ship, w/o losing its shield.

[Ragnos28]

Not me. Playing a Boron game right now & my Rays are doing absolutely fine for station demolition (I just use a few more of them). Just to be clear, this Boron player would NOT be glad for dev time to be wasted on adding a Boron battleship. Would very much prefer a Boron frigate instead (still somewhat miffed that that my favourite faction doesn't have my favourite ship class).

How many is a "few more of them"? I remember I did some calculations back in the day, and found out that a Behemoth with plasma on L turrets have 700% more dps that an Ray.

PS: if I don't get a boron battleship, I will "vote" that you don't get a boron frigate.

[GCU Grey Area]

How many is a "few more of them"?

Demolition Fleet currently has 14 Rays. For context, in previous (i.e non-Boron) games my demolition fleets have typically included around 10 destroyers. I don't need as many as a strict DPS calculation might suggest because Rays are more responsive when moving from one firing position to the next. Due to their zero travel charge time engines they can often be in position & shooting while their counterparts would still be waiting for their travel drives to warm up.