X-Verse Fleet Fest I

[X2-Eliah]

Not really, just that Alex told us about this thing, I got excited, and together we pulled in two more - Stemardue and Killjaeden

Also, these things do play a part in determining the balancing of X3-TC, and we'll be watching for any unprecedented results that aren't fair so they can be fixed.

But enough about that

[Deadbeat_Spinn]

Does that mean you're going to try and drag Trickmov, enenra, Aragon Speed, and every other XTC member in as well?

[X2-Eliah]

Not necessarily - this is primarily for our entertainment. We're not making these fleets up just to tick boxes off of a checklist, I, for one, genuinely am excited to see how well everyone's fleet fares against everyone else's.

[Merdocharr]

Answering the questions a few pages back:

Were you able to tell how many ships were successfully engaging at once?

A few dozen? Those fighters are hard to see. The big ships mostly just sat there when the battle started, moving only for short amounts of time and too rarely. My computer can handle ~100 ships without too much idling, but for some reason it looked like just a few dozen. On both teams.

You missed one major factor: fighters do attack runs

From a quick look at the submitted fleets the total hull values seem to be in the range of 900,000 give or take a few hundred thousand points. Assuming that a fleet has 1,600,000 hull points it would take 1,600,000/185=8649 MD rounds to destroy. With 100 ships (continuing from the last post example), a single ship needs to fire 86,5 rounds. With 4 MDs a single MD needs to fire 21.7 rounds. MD has fire rate of 740 rounds per minute or 12,3 rounds/second. So if a fighter can get only 1,76 seconds of fire on average the opposing fleet will be destroyed. I can't see it being more than 4 attack runs even with the short range of mass drivers and collision detection (1 or 2 being the realistic number). And with the full fleet of 199x4 MD solanos a ship needs only 0,9 seconds to fire enough rounds to inflict enough damage to destroy any fleet. That is, just a single attack run for all fighters.

I'll do some testing later today and try to see what is really happening. The PSG is starting to sound like a good choice .

[Stars_InTheirEyes]

X2-Eliah, you know now you love us all here?
How about giving us some behind-the-scenes?

[Algoran]

This, it is epic. I wanna play!

And thus, here's my contribution:


The Sunset Squad

Phoenix

1 x hull: 68,560,758
5 x 2gj: 3,739,620
24 x gc: 17,464,032 (front, left and right)
12 x isr: 5,828,916 (rear, top and bottom)
100 x gc ammo: 683,300
30 x tempest missile: 404,280

Total = 96,680,906

1 x Phoenix = 96,680,906


Tokyo

1 x hull: 68,226,890
5 x 2gj: 3,739,620
8 x ssc: 4,986,144 (top and bottom)
16 x m/am launcher: 7,229,952 (front, rear, left and right)
10 x m/am ammo: 9,360

Total = 84,191,966

1 x Tokyo = 84,191,966



Nova Raider

1 x hull: 1,610,680
3 x 25mj: 257,100
4 x ebc: 604,576
4 x prg: 598,336 (one prg in tail turret)
10 x wasp missile: 13,480
10 x ebc ammo: 15,510

Total = 3,099,682

16 x Nova Raider = 49,594,912


Scorpion

1 x hull: 314,800
1 x 5mj: 20,776
1 x pbe: 249,308
5 x wasp missile: 6,740

Total = 591,624

33 x Scorpion = 19,523,592


Total cost = 249,991,376. 8,624 remaining.
Hanger slots used: 49/50.

Hopefully I've got that all right.

Tried to make a reasonably balanced fleet, and I kept ending up arriving at the same ships everyone else was picking! There's good reason for their popularity I guess Think I still managed to come up with something that doesn't look like I copied it though.

But seriously; solanos, after looking at their stats.. is it just me or are they way too good? I was sorely tempted!

[Mutiny]

Tried to make a reasonably balanced fleet, and I kept ending up arriving at the same ships everyone else was picking! There's good reason for their popularity I guess Think I still managed to come up with something that doesn't look like I copied it though.

You could try limiting yourself to certain races or ship classes, i find it more interesting and challenging as you have to patch up holes in your fleet instead of using the "cookie cutter" template

[Cpt.Jericho]

@ x2-eliah:

Don't feel too flattered - I would have had opted for the Deimos anyway . Though probably not with all these PSGs but there are more swarm fleets in this - how many frakking Iguanas? Feh, going with 6 PSG through those is like mounting a lawnmower on your chest and walk through a horde of zombies

@Algoran:

I don't think your fleet looks copied in any aspect. I'm surprised of the outfit of a Tokyo. Those M/AMLs are MEAN. But only 4GJ shields on your M2? Well, it's your funeral

@mutiny:

Only the best ships for the TerrorCorps. F.A.R.T.

[Alex Vanderbilt]

Tried to make a reasonably balanced fleet, and I kept ending up arriving at the same ships everyone else was picking! There's good reason for their popularity I guess Think I still managed to come up with something that doesn't look like I copied it though.

You could try limiting yourself to certain races or ship classes, i find it more interesting and challenging as you have to patch up holes in your fleet instead of using the "cookie cutter" template

Indeed. Signed. Totally agree. The whole competition loses it's sense when everyone uses the same fleets. In this case we'd better use a lottery to find the winner instead of watching 10 cloned battles. I don't say, it should be prohibited to use the same fleets, but one should really think twice about using the one and only way to win sth. again and again. That just dumb in my opinion.

Anyway, made a minor Missile Update on my fleet. The only bottle of victory champagne I can buy with the remaining Cr belongs to me then.

AV

[perkint]

like mounting a lawnmower on your chest and walk through a horde of zombies

I recognise that reference - Brain Dead by Peter Jackson!!!

Do I win a prize?



Tim

[Tenlar Scarflame]

Absolutely true - I've been seeing a lot of Solanos, Nova Raiders, Falcon Haulers, and Panthers. (I am partially to blame... but Falcon Haulers fit in with my Teladi fleet. )

There's a couple days left... I might still restructure my fleet. There's a pure Boron fleet, Paranid fleet (almost pure), Argon fleet, and Teladi fleet... but I haven't seen a real All-Split battle group yet. I'd say they have a lot more to offer the competition outside of the Clown Car/Panther.

[Master of the Blade]

but I haven't seen a real All-Split battle group yet

The reason for that is thwofold. Firstly, their larger capital craft are undergunned and undershielded, leaving frigates as their only logical choice of battleship. Secondly, their badly-shielded fighters(sharing this drawback with the Boron) are cannon fodder for the abundance of flak in most fleets.

And as for the popularity of the Falcon Hauler, it's the heaviest shielded buyable M3, sharing that position with the Argon Eclipse, which costs twice as much. The F.H's larger cargobay and similar speed offsets the far smaller weapon generator(uses ammo based weapons well). (Not to mention the missile spamming ability of a fighter with 350 freight space.)

[Mutiny]

There's a pure Boron fleet, Paranid fleet (almost pure), Argon fleet, and Teladi fleet... but I haven't seen a real All-Split battle group yet. .

I had just noticed that as well, theres an all yaki fleet also.
I was considering for XFF 2 a Profit Guild fleet or having a fleet with ships no smaller than m6s (so no dockng is needed)

*EDIT*

The reason for that is thwofold. Firstly, their larger capital craft are undergunned and undershielded, leaving frigates as their only logical choice of battleship.

It would be a challenge but every commander has to make sacrifices

[Deadbeat_Spinn]

Ho hum de dum, fleet list updated. We are now at 30 fleets.....2 more to go (or more).

I don't really see an all Split fleet happening...unless some of their unbuyable ships were made available.

Sure the Falcon Hauler has the heaviest shielding with a 200 MJ shield but I think that could lead to it's downfall. The recharge rate is significantly slower than fighters using 25 MJ shields.


I see TJ has decided to still be absent, TWO DAYS prior to the start of Round 1 of the competition. I even checked my message box since I sent him a PM yesterday on the new fleets......the message is still sitting in the Outbox.

[Master of the Blade]

The recharge rate [of the Falcon Hauler] is significantly slower than fighters using 25 MJ shields.

Aye, but fighters tend to die very fast when they come in range of flak, with no chance to recharge. So you want the ship to last as long as possible under sustained heavy anti fighter fire to deliver its attack, which even 100mj of shields will struggle to do. The Terran fighters are probably better than the F.H, but ~360k for each and every gun? Come on.

[Deadbeat_Spinn]

Indeed. Signed. Totally agree. The whole competition loses it's sense when everyone uses the same fleets. In this case we'd better use a lottery to find the winner instead of watching 10 cloned battles. I don't say, it should be prohibited to use the same fleets, but one should really think twice about using the one and only way to win sth. again and again. That just dumb in my opinion.

I do agree that we have a fair amount of cloning but the majority of the clones are with four ships, the Panther, Shrike, Falcon Hauler, & Solano. Most of the other cloning is limited between 2-4 fleets and we do have a lot of ships that are limited to only one fleet.


I'll even give reasoning for my fleet,

Tenjin: A great ship but expensive, outfitting made each one cost roughly 6.8mil a piece. Out of all the M3's submitted, it's the only M3+ in all the fleets.

Solano: Again a great ship at a good price, I did want to try the Eurus/Venti but the former isn't in the game and the latter is unbuyable.

Heavy Centaur: Now I would have prefered the HCP but again due to the unbuyable tag I chose to make due with the standard version. Including myself, only one other fleet is using this ship.

Skiron: Originally I was planning on 4 Heavy Centaurs but I wanted a little variety when it came to M6's. Funny thing is the hull of a Skiron is more than the Heavy Centaur, but after outfitting the Skiron was actually cheap than the HC even though it has more guns. My fleet is the only one using this M6.

Panther: I didn't need a full carrier (M1) and since I only had 20 fighters so any other M7's I would need at least 3 of each, which at close to 150mil is well over half the 250mil budget and I wasn't about to spend that much on M7's.

Deimos: I wanted a PSG platform plain and simple. The Oddy is the second most expensive buyable M2 of all (behind the Akuma) and I didn't need something that big. I had no need for a Zeus due to price and I already had a carrier. If the Aggy was allowed it would have replaced the Deimos.


A couple of my fleets that are being worked on have several ships that aren't present in any XFF I fleets. Granted some are on the XFF I list but none are the very popular ships.

[Tenlar Scarflame]

Indeed, I think most fleets can be rationalized by their makers.

The Phoenixes exist as damage sinks and capital smashers, and their enormity makes them difficult for fighters to get a bead on. The Falcon Haulers are there to run anti-fighter work, and the Pelicans are disposable jeeps and missile platforms.

One potential idea for the next X-V-F-F is a smaller scale ship smackdown. Where the credit cap is somewhere around 25 million - which you can easily drain into a single MM6, or spread out across a fighter group or group of gunboats... not quite enough money to do any serious spamming of anything, except perhaps M5's. Or Zephyri. On that scale, the challenge is more about fine-tuning the balance between numbers, gun coverage, speed, and shields.

[Master of the Blade]

One potential idea for the next X-V-F-F is a smaller scale ship smackdown. Where the credit cap is somewhere around 25 million - which you can easily drain into a single MM6, or spread out across a fighter group or group of gunboats... not quite enough money to do any serious spamming of anything, except perhaps M5's. Or Zephyri. On that scale, the challenge is more about fine-tuning the balance between numbers, gun coverage, speed, and shields.

Good idea, but we'd have to do something about the Springblossom in that one: its flak weaponry would make all other ships obsolete on such a low budget.(Cheap ship, you could use two or three on a 25Mcr budget, since they'd only need 4 or so PSSCs to completely dominate.) Anyway, I hope Technojerk's still around - it'd be terrible if this fizzled out now...

[Spitzeuk]

Shrike, solano - ridiculously good value for money.
Panther - almost as strong if not as strong as most other M7, decent price without the 32 hangar bay. Given the hangar bay rule this ship is by far the best choice for anyone with 30+ fighters. Also rendering carriers entirely useless in this competition.
Falcon Hauler - Fairly cheap, crazy shielding and decent weaponry potential (not sure on generator but otherwise go EBC and fill that cargo bay?)
Nova Raider - Pretty good all round ship. Excellent for the price compared to any M3+.

The competition is based around a financial cap, stands to reason that you go for the best value for money ships to win? M3+ ships are incredibly good but are they twice as good as normal M3s to make it worth it? Same for heavy variants of M6s, are they 2/3 (or 5 in the case of the Hydra) times as good as their normal variant? Especially when the Springblossom is the cheapest M6 and probably more powerful (not sure about under AI control with its speed though). Actually I'm quite surprised we have so few Springblossoms and Katanas. Lastly there is M1 vs Panther. Why would you pay 60-90 million for 30-50 hangar space when you can pay 37 mil for 32 space. Some carriers may have slightly better weapons and a fair amount more shielding but are slower, but I don't think it`ll ever justify spending double.
Given 25mil budget I think we'd just see even more Solanos, they are practically M3 ship with M4 cost.

So how can you prevent the best value for money ships being the most common? Maybe change the budget to something that isnt about credits:
Budget as number of ships? - hello Eclipse/Hyperion/Boreas spam (I'm aware you can't buy Hyp, yes)
Budget as number of guns? - not sure how that would go
Given limit for ships of each class? - would probably force fleets to be even more similar.


TLDR; When you limit a competition to a budget you have to expect the best value for money ships to be the most common.


PS I'm aware that my fleet is perhaps the biggest offender as I have all of the above mentioned ships. The fleet was designed to win - even though the winner will probably be a specialised fleet that gets drawn up against what it is designed to counter IE lucky

[NUKLEAR-SLUG]

Code: Select all

Family G'Yvr


Raptor          1x		80,535,325
Shields 2GJ     2x		1,495,848
CIG 		      8x		359,016
FAA		      12x		7,479,216
Tempest		  30x		1,010,760


Mamba		    15x		24,160,200
Shields 25Mj   30x		2,571,000
PAC	         90x		3,506,040
Tempest		 300x		4,042,800


Chimera		  10x		54,373,750
Shields 25Mj   30x		2,571,000
HEPT		     40x		5,609,440
PBE (turret)   20x		4,986,160 
Tempest		 250x		3,369,000  


Asp	         21x		14,588,385
Shields 25Mj   21x		1,799,700
PBE		      42x		10,470,396
Tempest		 315x		4,244,940


Viper		     3x		16,341,345
Shields 25Mj   12x		1,028,400
PBE (turret)    3x		747,924
Tomahawk	    60x		1,347,600
                      ---------------
                        249,869,785