[MOD] Ship Rebalance Mod ver 0.59 [30/08/2009] + 2 COCKPIT PACKS + Alkeena's BSD!!!!

[someone else]

Hi someone else, is there a changelog where i can view what was changed in the no civs mod by draffut? Great mod btw, i've been using this and cmod and loving it!

you need to ask draffut... he made it. sorry

@Raumkraut93: from the description i can understand that the "Kalmar" is this ship (Thresher in english).
It works like a "anti tank" platform, you go in range and snipe the enemy with a volley of 10 PPC or Ion Cannons... and then run away while energy recharges. Imho it isn't so unbalanced. It is a M7, and as a M7 is quite powerful. It is just a bit BIG, but most of the Boron ships are so big, look at my ship size comparison (link in my sig). Anyways tell me what it should become. mmmh... maybe one more shield can be useful on it.

@OOZ662: yep. but if you remove shields it becomes a easy prey. anyways... what you suggest? only 2 shields + more weapon generator?

p.s. everyone agrees on Carriers? so next version will have them modded again.

[OOZ662]

I dunno, I'm bunk at balancing. Just good at noticing non-canon things.

I don't think a carrier should be able to bust through a Destroyer. I think they ought to be able to defend themselves but not become a "main battle tank."

[DannyDSC]

p.p.s. anyone wants to try this shiny little mod? makes missiles more interesting...

yeah, I think Missiles Rebalance is very useful , especially if we used both Missile Rebalance and Rebalance Mod

[Raumkraut93]

@Raumkraut93: from the description i can understand that the "Kalmar" is this ship (Thresher in english).
It works like a "anti tank" platform, you go in range and snipe the enemy with a volley of 10 PPC or Ion Cannons... and then run away while energy recharges. Imho it isn't so unbalanced. It is a M7, and as a M7 is quite powerful. It is just a bit BIG, but most of the Boron ships are so big, look at my ship size comparison (link in my sig). Anyways tell me what it should become. mmmh... maybe one more shield can be useful on it.

Oh sorry, i forgot that the english name of the ship is different than the german. sorry

I didn't know that the boron cap ships are so really big. I'm just wondering what they do with this much more space. Same with Teladi Phoenix, by the way.

Maybe you could improve the laser generator a bit (to the level of the Cerberus maybe), or give it one more shield. Because it is really big in regard to the other M7 and its even worse in its technological level (only advantage is that it can mount PPC, but this isn't so useful with this low weapon generator).

@carrier

I would agree to make the carrier stronger. The flagship class is a class which really is missing in this game and the carriers are a good templatte for them. But maybe you should also raise the price a bit for them.

[OOZ662]

I agree that a price hike is needed for the carriers even as they are, though magnified by how much you buff them too.

[someone else]

boh the price does not matter a lot.. I any capital even with MARS. I'll rise it a bit, about 20% of the original.

the problem with the Thresher/Kalmar is that with its 10 PPC it already kills a M2 easily. I can rise the laser energy, but the regeneration must remain somewhat low to stop the player from shooting too much... I'll make some tests to ensure "fairness". One more shield and one more gun in down turret are surely needed though, I'll raise A LOT the shield generator though... my Borons (SRM ones) should excel in generators (laser/shields), have medium shielding and good manouverability.

for the Tiger... it has already a lot, is is fast, has good weapons (IBL), its flaks are deadly (if the flak bug does not kick in), has decent cargo and good weapon generator. I think that a small nerf in the shielding could be good. I propose to remove 1 shield from it (and to adjust shield gen accordingly), maybe to counter this "nerf" the laser generator and the laser energy can be raised.

[@fon]

some proposed changes:

--Teladi M1... no idea.

How about increasing it's speed at least on par with Argon Collossus?
Description claims that it's faster than most carriers, yet in vanilla it's the slowest player-buyable M1(only M1 slower than Condor is the Deca)

-- Xenon J... mmmh... side PPC? 8 guns on each side...

Maybe increase it's hangar capability?

[Raumkraut93]

can you give each Heavy M6 one docking slot? the external dock is already in the models, but not used ...

15.Raised the number of frontal guns on Heavy Hydra, raised the cargo hold to 1000 and toned down the price

I see no difference in its price, still 25 million

[someone else]

@@fon: actually the Condor description says

The Condor is the carrier ship of the Teladi Company Space Fleet. It is a powerful battleship based upon technology supplied by the Split combined with that of the older Argon Prime VI.
Rarely seen outside Teladi sectors the ship is slow but heavily armed and shielded compared to the carriers of other races, its Captains preferring to last longer than others in a battle while still avoiding to get into trouble in the first place.

Anyways yes, looking at the descriptions to know how they should "feel" in-game can be a very good idea... the J for example "The Xenon carrier is a slow, yet powerful beast." and goes at 90 m/s. yeah.

@Raumkraut93: that problem with the Hvy Hydra will be fixed in next version...
the next version will integrate this docking mod so just wait a little.

[OOZ662]

I don't wanna wait! I've missed those docking slots ever since XTM...

[djrygar]

small question;

is it possible to change hull/rudder/cargo optimisation cost?

for me it should be much, much more expensive to make such adjustments

my point is - there are lots of ships with similar properties (which is why you're doing your mod), but with exception of freighters (their cargospace), the cost of finetuning ship is actually hard to notice. Yet AI ships fly around with just slight improvements. The first thing players do is maxing engines/rudder/cargo, and its cheaper than buing one expensive missile.

See, if finetuning would be expensive, it would give player much more to think of, what ships are better bang for bucks (taking not max properties into consideration, but also base stats and cost of upgrading, especially when buing fleet of, lets say, 10 fighters at once). Just another idea to make existing ships worth buing

[Apsody243]

To follow on from what The Invader Zim said, the argon elite has particle trails when you start as argon patriot.

There may be other ships as well i haven't checked.

[Raumkraut93]

and 1 word to the springblossom

ok, it was overpowered ... now its "only" 260 ms fast, but has small shields and not many weapons. its still a very good M6, but i can't understand why it must be as expensive as an M7

I think it should be at about 25 Million like the Heavy Hydra is now.

[@fon]

the ship is slow but heavily armed and shielded

Russian version claims otherwise. Oh well...

looking at the descriptions to know how they should "feel" in-game can be a very good idea

They are there for a reason

argon elite has particle trails when you start as argon patriot

Here's some screenshots what Invader Zim and Apsody mean.
[ external image ]
[ external image ]
That is without Trial Pack installed

[someone else]

Russian version claims otherwise. Oh well...

Yep.. in the italian version there are some "glitches" like that too. Those low-payed translators... If i could read german I can see descriptions that are exactly what the Ego guys wanted to say (they are germans after all)

@All having trails problems: I sent a PM to Killerog asking to have a look at the relevant files, I am a bit naive on them and I don't want to make a mess while it would take him 10 minutes. Probably will be fixed in the next version.

for springy... will look at his price.

is it possible to change hull/rudder/cargo optimisation cost?

Interesting... very very interesting... I'll look to that, dunno where they are located but I can search for them. How much they should increase? I think that doubling or tripling the Vanilla price would be ok for the speed and rudder ones, for the cargo extensons doubling the cost would be enough. (SF cost of full cargo tunings is about a milion in Vanilla... rising that too much will be... unpleasant)

[killerog]

If i remember correctly this is the file that changes if you install the trail pack, but for some reason your main mod had the unedited one.

Just place this in your main mod.

http://www.x3dmod.com/dev/killerog/Particles3.rar

Ill update the particle add-on in the next few days.

[@fon]

[ external image ]

Can anyone guess what it is?

Spoiler

Show

View from the back turret of the PX

[someone else]

@Killerog: thanks a lot for checking... next version will have it.

@@fon: looks like the Deaths Star... it is a draffut's modify to the camera position. fixing...

[djrygar]

is it possible to change hull/rudder/cargo optimisation cost?

Interesting... very very interesting... I'll look to that, dunno where they are located but I can search for them. How much they should increase? I think that doubling or tripling the Vanilla price would be ok for the speed and rudder ones, for the cargo extensons doubling the cost would be enough. (SF cost of full cargo tunings is about a milion in Vanilla... rising that too much will be... unpleasant)

well.. I like how it is with freighters. This is very good example.
Mistral Super Freighter base cost is something about 1,5mln, cost of full cargo optimisation is something about 2,5mln - more than base price of ships itself. This results in me buing ship and giving it like 0 - 70% cargo optimisation in most cases - and I have to think if it is worth to spend so much money for freighter or not. So If I'm assembling a ship for Prospector - i Im even giving him full cargo opt, if some energy cell freighter for factory - no optimisation at all. But the real gain is me thinking/checking for alternatives. More fun. More immersion. (as it still bugs me, that I'm getting better ships with no effort - why the hell AI ships dont do that it its so simple?)

But now, even with your mod, still OTAS freighters have almost no competition.
Ideally would be that tuning of engine/rudder would be percentage of base price. Doubling current price will not make difference (if you buy freighter for 2mln, it still would be nothing to think of - 20 000 or 40 000 for full engine optimisation, no difference. But, paing another MILLION for full engine optimisation - yes, that will make you think. Maybe intead of Otas one, it's better to buy MIstral or Demiter with better base speed, and spend money on more cargo optimisation?

Same with destroyers - shell out 30k for engines is nothing, just another operation after you buy one. But pay lets say, 10 or 30 mln for optimising engines? Ahh.. maybe this Oddyseus is not good idea, lets take phoenix.. And so on.

Basically thats different approach to what you aim for (bring back all ships to be worth buying) - not by changing properties, but prices.
I'm afraid those prices may be sealed in core exe. (so one unit of engine optimisation costs always 2k and so on), but I think you may change how much optimisation you can add to ship, and this may make the trick.


It wil also make things more natural, compare it to, lets say, cars. You buy some used oldie, and want to tune it's engine. It will be quite cheap operation to some point. If you buy brand new Lambo and want to make some additional tuning to it - be ready to loose some fortune.

[someone else]

But now, even with your mod, still OTAS freighters have almost no competition.

mmmh... that is not intended... can you explain why? I'm not a "trader", I'm a pirate . I'm a bit lacking in TS experience.

Ideally would be that tuning of engine/rudder would be percentage of base price.

yep. it is impossible though, the starting price is a value in the T files and raises while you add another optimization following its own formula. (probably hardcoded)

but I think you may change how much optimisation you can add to ship, and this may make the trick.

warning... if I lower the base speed/rudder/cargo and raise the number of optimizations available it will mean that AI will use vastly inferior ships (due to its low number of tunings spawned)

p.s. I found the T file with the 3 wares (Cargo/speed/rudder extensions) now I must set up a Excel sheet to make it do the number crunching needed to balance it a bit... how much does rise the price for each tuning added before the first? (never cared to know due to so low prices )