Split from X-Rebirth Steam poll thread - Round 2

[Burneyx]

Burneyx,
I do feel for you mate, having given Steam a fair chance and been sadly let down!
However I ask you to refrain regretting that ES should also give Steam a go?
The strength of our main difference with ES over this is, that we are telling no one what they cannot do. It is Steam, ES and their dictatorial supporters that are insisting that we must accede to Steam control if we wish to play RB.
It is not for us to SINK to their level and insist they cannot use Steam, if they wish to live under Steam control by all means allow them to do so, this is Democratic and proper!
All we are asking ES for is the same democratic option to play RB the way X always has been played, with freedom, without let or hinderance. It is ES that has betrayed us not the other way round!

David,
thanks for your good answer mate.
English isn't my mother language, so i have to excuse for any unwanted side effects.
It wasn't my intention to be NOT Democratic, so i edited my post. I hope it is better now.

greetings

burneyx

[Observe]

It realy hurts my heart that Egosoft don't do the same way and decided to go Steam only, with no other option, for me a way that i can't follow!
But anyways, it's a good decision from a financial side and Egosoft will get a "Sunny Place" from this cooperation.

I'm not convinced going with Steam is a good decision for Egosoft - even on the financial side.

Consider close to 50% of respondents in this thread are opposed to Steam. Who knows how that actually translates to the wider X-games audience. For whatever reasons, Space sim's are a small niche market, and I wonder if Egosoft can afford to alienate so many of its die-hard fans?

How many of those Steam-tolerant customers who may replace the lost fans are going to stay with Rebirth the way many of us have stayed with X up until now?

Many of us are not into buying the latest and greatest or cheapest games. We are extremely selective and are not interested in buying based on hype. I doubt there are many Steam fanboy gamers who have played one game over the years to the extent many of us have with X. In fact, I suspect Steam fanboy's generally tend to play a lot of games a little bit. After all, isn't that one of the advantages of buying through Steam?

Bottom line: I fear Steam is a death trap for Egosoft in light of it's current fan base and I doubt Steam fanboy's are going to provide the support Egosoft is accustomed to. Why? because they are busy downloading their next game - with Rebirth already a distant memory in their haste to the next adrenalin rush.

[Ketraar]

Here probably my last contribution to this subject, given I cant really be bothered with the redundant arguments and lack of proper manners (mostly lack of respect for other peoples opinion). Seams people are more interested in arguing just for the sake of it, than really inform others and that's something I wont be part of.

I like to start with saying that there are not many PRO steam users as I have only seen very few that had Steam as their only choice (but yes there are some that will ONLY get if its available from Steam). Most people I see have no problem if it has Steam, maybe some even welcome it but don't make Steam a requirement, nor a deal breaker. Last but not least some will not buy XR if it uses Steam of any kind.

So here I would like to sum the 3 Arguments I (arbitrary) recognise as valid reasons not to want steam. If you read this and you are not sure about Steam and none of the 3 listed arguments fit you, then its safe to say you can safely use Steam and therefore I just save some time and don't bother sum the good points as to why you should use Steam or not.

• Because you can - This is a valid argument and applicable in most democratic countries, it does not require more explanation.
• Lack of Internet access - If you don't have a connection that allows you to at least authenticate the game, then you will not be able to play it. For all other situation plenty of options were given IF you bother or if you really want XR.
• Ideology or philosophical reasons - If you have an issue as to where things are going and don't want to support/participate in it. If you think you can make a difference and you want to induce a change, than start petitions etc. and hope enough people join to swing things around.

All other arguments I read here are a desperate attempt to make the list artificially grow, in the hope to make it more relevant. Don't! These are 3 valid arguments on their own, no need to make up more. If you identify with any of these its your right to do so and you don't need to be ashamed. Desperately making up reasons just makes you look silly, so I'd say don't.

MFG

Ketraar

PS.: Just to make it clear this is 100% my personal opinion and has nothing to do with any labels you may associate with it.

[Shimrod]

Thats a fair summary. There is possibly a fourth position but this may be considered a special case of the 3rd bullet.

To play a Steamworks game one must enter into a contract with Valve Corporation, the Steam Subscriber Agreement, which describes itself as a legal document and enumerates conditions and limitations of use.

A fourth position would be not wanting to enter into a legally binding arrangement with Valve Corporation outright, or disagreement regarding particular terms of the contract.

If Valve redefines the the terms of the arrangement to your dissatisfaction, such as introducing non skippable ads or a subscription fee, my interpretation is that cancelling the account and therefore forfeiting any games linked to that account is your one and only recourse:

Valve may amend this Agreement at any time in its sole discretion. As a Subscriber, you agree that Valve may amend the terms of this Agreement.
...
If you don't agree to the amendments or to any of the terms in this Agreement, your only remedy is to cancel your Account or a particular Subscription.

You understand and agree that the cancellation of your Account or a particular Subscription is your sole right and remedy with respect to any dispute with Valve.

Source: http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/

[EmperorJon]

Here probably my last contribution to this subject, given I cant really be bothered with the redundant arguments and lack of proper manners (mostly lack of respect for other peoples opinion). Seams people are more interested in arguing just for the sake of it, than really inform others and that's something I wont be part of.

Indeed, I'm also going to stop posting here for similar reasons. I have these things to say.

I am not against people against Steam. Choice is good.
I am against people who fabricate lies about Steam to sway the debate... either way.
I have had no issues with Steam, some people have, some people are over hyping their issues to be the end of the world, some people are claiming that without Steam we'd all die.
I understand that some people cannot use Steam, at all. Or never will. For you, I hope that a non-Steam version is released.

Basically, I'm fed up of the childish lies and insults being thrown around on both sides, of the personal insults, of the lack of people caring for other opinions, and similar. It seems there are relatively few people taking other opinions on board. I like to think I'm one of them. In my personal opinion, this discussion should stop being "Steam is BAD" "NO STEAM IS GOOD" "NO STEAM IS ****" "NO STEAM IS GOD" "NO..." etc.
That's not going to get anyone anywhere. The thread is negative, and to put it blunty, a rage-fest at times.

I will suggest 2 things. Neither of which will happen, but I'll feel better.

1. Someone starts some sort of poll, petition, whatever, off site, which is simply "I will not buy Rebirth if I'm forced to use Steam."
2. The arguments for sake of arguing stop.



(May I also point out, many anti-Steam people have something like "XR ON STEAM? NO SALE" or similar in their signature. Some others have a line about choice, or "only" on Steam. I would suggest the latter is more accurate and less negative, the former suggests you won't buy it because Steam is a possible distribution method. That's how I read it at first.)


One last thing. I hope it all works out nicely for everyone, and I hope that everyone that wants a non-Steam copy can get one, for the sake of the community, but that it's also sold on Steam, for the sake of those who can get it only of Steam, and to boost sales for Egosoft, an awesome company! I also may reply to any direct replies to this post, or just to alert anyone that they've made me totally lose all respect for the community. You are warned!

[NUKLEAR-SLUG]

For me, Steam had its chance in 08/2010, i tried to use it in the trust that many X-fans like it. That Steam badly failed because the activation key was already used is not the important part for me, its the bad service provided (customer service server down for more then 2 hours, i didn't want to wait longer).

You're seriously telling us you hate Steam because one day they had 2 hours of unexpected server downtime? Seriously?

Now another example that is called minecraft, they are small but refuse to go Steam. They want to interact with their customers like they wish to do and need nobody to direct them in any way. All i can say is bravo, hold on doing so!
It realy hurts my heart that Egosoft don't do the same way and decided to go Steam only, with no other option, for me a way that i can't follow!
But anyways, it's a good decision from a financial side and Egosoft will get a "Sunny Place" from this cooperation.

Minecraft is a bit different from X actually. It's not so much that they refuse to join Steam but more that at the present time Steam provides no actual advantage to them. In terms of marketing for example they would gain little from advertising on Steam as the way Minecraft has gone practically viral pretty much half the planet has heard of Minecraft by now. Most people have never heard of the X series.

In Minecrafts case then it would actually be a disadvantage to go with Steam as while they are able to manage their own sales they get to keep those extra royalties that they would otherwise pay to Steam. More profits for them. X is the other way around, those Steam royalties they pay are more than made up by marketing potential and extra sales.

Bottom line: I fear Steam is a death trap for Egosoft in light of it's current fan base and I doubt Steam fanboy's are going to provide the support Egosoft is accustomed to. Why? because they are busy downloading their next game - with Rebirth already a distant memory in their haste to the next adrenalin rush.

At the end of the day tho, whether they choose to stay with the game or go pick up Modern Warfare 7 instead they still bought the game and that's still money in Egosofts pocket.

[Mightysword]

Here probably my last contribution to this subject, given I cant really be bothered with the redundant arguments and lack of proper manners (mostly lack of respect for other peoples opinion). Seams people are more interested in arguing just for the sake of it, than really inform others and that's something I wont be part of.

In my personal opinion, this discussion should stop being "Steam is BAD" "NO STEAM IS GOOD" "NO STEAM IS ****" "NO STEAM IS GOD" "NO..." etc.
That's not going to get anyone anywhere. The thread is negative, and to put it blunty, a rage-fest at times.

My irritattion is that there are quite a few good posters around trying to be reasonable. You have people goes out of their way to do experiment to inform other, there are people who try to gather info from various sources (like me) so others can make an informed decision. There are people who took these info and said "ok, I can deal with that", and some said "still, no thanks", that's fine too. But for the most part, a "majority" of negative posts came from a minority of posters that at this point, feel like just try to sweep whatever afford made by others under the rugged with a "LOLZ SO WHAT?" attitude.


At this point, any good, valid, helpful info will be under the rubble of same irresponsible venting in less than half a night, and the new readers will get nothing from following the thread. Unless some kind of proper code of proper conduct, this thread is going nowhere. The current forum basically give everyone a free pass to have a shout match and drown out any reason and get away with it.

[bobxii]

Thats a fair summary. There is possibly a fourth position but this may be considered a special case of the 3rd bullet.

To play a Steamworks game one must enter into a contract with Valve Corporation, the Steam Subscriber Agreement, which describes itself as a legal document and enumerates conditions and limitations of use.

A fourth position would be not wanting to enter into a legally binding arrangement with Valve Corporation outright, or disagreement regarding particular terms of the contract.

If Valve redefines the the terms of the arrangement to your dissatisfaction, such as introducing non skippable ads or a subscription fee, my interpretation is that cancelling the account and therefore forfeiting any games linked to that account is your one and only recourse:

Valve may amend this Agreement at any time in its sole discretion. As a Subscriber, you agree that Valve may amend the terms of this Agreement.
...
If you don't agree to the amendments or to any of the terms in this Agreement, your only remedy is to cancel your Account or a particular Subscription.

You understand and agree that the cancellation of your Account or a particular Subscription is your sole right and remedy with respect to any dispute with Valve.

Source: http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/

This is kindof moot since you must agree to a contract when you install any game, even if it isn't on Steam. (The EULA everybody clicks past without reading?)

[Shimrod]

This is kindof moot since you must agree to a contract when you install any game, even if it isn't on Steam. (The EULA everybody clicks past without reading?)

These are entirely different contracts.

Steam is a subscription arrangement which can be terminated or modified at any time without your consent. Your only recourse is to cancel the account with a loss of all your games.

The traditional EULA typically warns off reverse engineering, making copies and the like. It has no impact on your continued ability to play the game. With obvious exceptions of MMOs and multiplayer.

[Antaran]

This is kindof moot since you must agree to a contract when you install any game, even if it isn't on Steam. (The EULA everybody clicks past without reading?)

Not really a mood point imo, since all EULAs tend to differ, Dynamic(online f.e. steam) EULAs can change in the future and if you do not accept the new EULA online you loose your access, and the online service can enforce it.

Static EULAs on the other hand f.e. those that come with a game when you buy it from a store in a package with a disc activation do not change over time.

So even if you accept 1 EULA somewhere does not mean you accept all EULA everywhere (well, the selected few that actually read the EULA).

[VincentTH]

Thats a fair summary. There is possibly a fourth position but this may be considered a special case of the 3rd bullet.

To play a Steamworks game one must enter into a contract with Valve Corporation, the Steam Subscriber Agreement, which describes itself as a legal document and enumerates conditions and limitations of use.

A fourth position would be not wanting to enter into a legally binding arrangement with Valve Corporation outright, or disagreement regarding particular terms of the contract.

If Valve redefines the the terms of the arrangement to your dissatisfaction, such as introducing non skippable ads or a subscription fee, my interpretation is that cancelling the account and therefore forfeiting any games linked to that account is your one and only recourse:

Valve may amend this Agreement at any time in its sole discretion. As a Subscriber, you agree that Valve may amend the terms of this Agreement.
...
If you don't agree to the amendments or to any of the terms in this Agreement, your only remedy is to cancel your Account or a particular Subscription.

You understand and agree that the cancellation of your Account or a particular Subscription is your sole right and remedy with respect to any dispute with Valve.

Source: http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/

This is kindof moot since you must agree to a contract when you install any game, even if it isn't on Steam. (The EULA everybody clicks past without reading?)

\

There is a very big difference. The emphasis is in losing ALL games, if in the UNLIKELY scenario where Steam changes the EULA, that effect ALL of your games, should you refuse the new EULA, not just for the one game with the EULA that you don't agree with.

To be fair, the counter argument is that Egosoft/Bernd has stated that in that case, Egosoft would release a patch to make X:R a standalone game. But that does not negate the fact that you may lose all other games, not just XR.

All this discussion about Steam, really damped my enthousiasm about X:Rebirth. Sigh!!!
I am now find solace in Beta testing for a Ubisoft standalone game (TAGES DRM), and will not be actively discussing Steam any further.

[bobxii]

Alright, good points perhaps, but you're still backing yourself into a corner. Ketraar's post is still (except for your point) relevant.

[Shimrod]

Just to clarify, I don't disagree with Ketraar's post, but I felt to express my own position, this needed an additional category over those listed to represent issues with the subscribe vs buy situation, and terms of that contract.

At this point I'd consider using Steam for throwaway kids games where I'd lose no sleep over forfeiting them if was obliged to terminate the arrangement with Steam.

I had bought 3 Steamworks games (civ5, new vegas, supcom2), where the whole issue shot under my radar, then I saw where this was leading and took the decision: no more. Not long before I'd have 100 games, and too much vested interest to walk away from it if the Steam arrangement turned sour.

[Nanook]

It seems to me there are way too many naive, trusting folks willing to stake their whole game collection on the continuing good will and financial stability of a single company. Over the past 30 years of buying computer games, I've seen most of those companies I've bought from simply go under, due to one reason or another. And yet there are plenty of folks in this thread claiming that no such thing will ever happen to another gaming company, Steam/Valve.

Sorry guys, but in my experience, it's just a matter of when, not if. All it takes is a change in leadership, some financial difficulty, poor planning or even a hostile takeover by another company. I've got well over a thousand games in my collection, many of which I still play. But I'd have precious few playable ones if I'd depended on those companies I bought them from still being afloat. So pays your money and takes your chances. I still prefer a standalone box, and would even if my home internet could handle dowloading games and patches. Which it can't.

[EmperorJon]

But once again, Nanook, you're one of the people making a big deal out of nothing. Ok, I understand that you can't download patches/games well, etc. But the main fact is, you're nervous that Steam will go under and you'll lose your games.

You wouldn't have to buy games, only a game. Rebirth. Which has been promised to be provided Steam free should such a situation ever occur.


Anyway, I apologise for posting again.

[Antaran]

But once again, Nanook, you're one of the people making a big deal out of nothing. Ok, I understand that you can't download patches/games well, etc. But the main fact is, you're nervous that Steam will go under and you'll lose your games.

You wouldn't have to buy games, only a game. Rebirth. Which has been promised to be provided Steam free should such a situation ever occur.


Anyway, I apologise for posting again.

It may not seem like a big deal to you, but it is a big deal to us that wan´t to have a disc activation.

You assume this is the only game that is forcing steam usage that we wan't, for me there are 3 games just last 2 months I have cancelled preorders because of steam and 1 other because of forced online as you play.

It is not just that steam might go under or whatnot, it is the fact that you have to rely on a 3rd party online service to use the game, that is unacceptable.

[EmperorJon]

I understand that some people find it unacceptable, I was just commenting on how Nanook was making a big deal about losing the game.


EDIT: After a brief Net Search it seems, indeed, Valve have never released an "official statement" saying that games will be playable.

But I found a forum post of someone who sent a message to customer support.

"I am concerned with further purchases from your company. What happens if your company goes out of business? Your competitors have already addressed this issue by providing an explanation, yet you continue to avoid a clear answer."

Customer support replied with the following:

Thank you for contacting Steam Support.

"In the unlikely event of the discontinuation of the Steam network, measures are in place to ensure that all users continue to have have access to their Steam games.

If you have any further questions, please let us know - we will be happy to assist you."

[Nanook]

I understand that some people find it unacceptable, I was just commenting on how Nanook was making a big deal about losing the game.

You're the one making a big deal. I was just stating my opinion, and my reasons for not wanting a Steam X-Rebirth. If you continue to attack those posters who have a differing opinion to yours, rather than just stick to commenting on the post itself, we're going to have to discuss your posting habits.

[EmperorJon]

Sigh, I think you're missing the point. I can understand you being worried about losing your games, I was just pointing out that in this particular case, Ego were backing it up.

[Burneyx]

Sigh, I think you're missing the point. I can understand you being worried about losing your games, I was just pointing out that in this particular case, Ego were backing it up.

This is the point:

9. DISCLAIMERS; LIMITATION OF LIABILITY; NO GUARANTEES

A. DISCLAIMERS.

THE ENTIRE RISK ARISING OUT OF USE OR PERFORMANCE OF STEAM, THE SOFTWARE, AND MERCHANDISE REMAINS WITH YOU, THE USER.

I think its self explaining.......

greetings

burneyx