xenon

[blackphoenixx]

I would argue it's not that OOS cripples Xenon, it's IS cripples factions instead. Because OOS is logically the end result of the superior ranges of faction destroyers, the dumb AI just makes the Xenon looks smarter than they are.
Xenon for some of their dead end sector should get an XL turret for a super station or something. Like a combo shipyard/wharf that also has weapons that can outrange others. Dead end because in that way, it wouldn't be something you feel you need to clear for trade or whatever, so something you can deal with at your leisure.
And I've also suggested some kind of missile boat, but for defense only, because the argument is that having players deal with suddenly missiles is unpleasant, this can be dealt with by reserving them for defense and the crisis.

You will never satisfy the "xenon too weak" faction if you keep half-assing things because you're too scared to challenge the players.

How do you expect Xenon to give a proper fight if they're not allowed to use half the tools the game offers (missiles, anti-capital weapons on S & M ships)?
How are they supposed to actually make things harder if all the dangerous stuff just sits in a dead-end sector until you decide to go there and fight it?
It's the same reason the crisis isn't a proper endgame threat - you can pick and choose when to engage it, it doesn't actually threaten anything.

Similarly the "xenon too strong" crowd will never accept a solution that could actually threaten their overbuild gate defense platforms (and the eco behind them). They don't want any combat challenges in their empire building sim.

The two points are fundamentally incompatible. Xenon can be either the tutorial enemy or a real endgame threat, but not both at once, so ES either needs to decide which it's going to be or make it an option to choose on game start.
This half-assed compromising that tries to please both sides just ends up disappointing to everyone.

[EGO_Aut]

I have dismantled my defense stations on the xenon borders, now they are a challenge again, at least for the factions.

It would be boring if xenon were too weak and posed no threat to the factions.

[jlehtone]

How are they supposed to actually make things harder if all the dangerous stuff just sits in a dead-end sector until you decide to go there and fight it?
It's the same reason the crisis isn't a proper endgame threat - you can pick and choose when to engage it, it doesn't actually threaten anything.

True, but "threat" and "fight" are not 1:1.
A real threat gives you "The End", if you don't do this and that. Aren't the 4X games built on that premise? (X4 is not 4X, nor should be.)

The "I don't fight but I want to sell Hull Parts non-stop" play does depend on the NPC "consuming" Hull Parts, and initially Xenon play a big part in that. No Xenon, less death, less sales. The NPC-NPC attrition is "fight".


Three different setups: Nothing to shoot at -- something to shoot at will -- absolutely definitely must shoot.
Yes, the one in the middle is a compromise. It is still better than the first.

-have them keep a pool of reserve SEs that *only* serve their shipyard and wharf and don't go out to build stations, because this is often how they lose a big chunk of them, and it seems to spiral downward from there.

Xenon do need minerals and energy. I just saw Xenon dismantle their only SPP in the pocket. Even if they had SE for energy transfers, they look practically dead. Yes, their S/SE logistics is weak. The Shipyards do not help in that. Only their Wharfs can replace lost SE.

A bug, reported and acknowledged, is that Xenon fail to build the station plots that they start. Their expansion, and even rebuild of "home sectors" fails due to that. The builds fail, because SE do not bring materials. SE do not bring materials, because they are busy serving the yards. (And when SPP is gone, there is nothing to bring to anywhere ...)


The fact that a faction can be hugely affected by targeting its logistics is awesome. The fight is more fun if it gives the feeling that we are smart. At the same time, being smart is and should be very boring, since we intentionally avoid threats and unnecessary risks. If the chance to be smart is removed, then fight becomes a grinder and you just supply enough cannon fodder to it in order to "win".

[Raptor34]

I would argue it's not that OOS cripples Xenon, it's IS cripples factions instead. Because OOS is logically the end result of the superior ranges of faction destroyers, the dumb AI just makes the Xenon looks smarter than they are.
Xenon for some of their dead end sector should get an XL turret for a super station or something. Like a combo shipyard/wharf that also has weapons that can outrange others. Dead end because in that way, it wouldn't be something you feel you need to clear for trade or whatever, so something you can deal with at your leisure.
And I've also suggested some kind of missile boat, but for defense only, because the argument is that having players deal with suddenly missiles is unpleasant, this can be dealt with by reserving them for defense and the crisis.

You will never satisfy the "xenon too weak" faction if you keep half-assing things because you're too scared to challenge the players.

How do you expect Xenon to give a proper fight if they're not allowed to use half the tools the game offers (missiles, anti-capital weapons on S & M ships)?
How are they supposed to actually make things harder if all the dangerous stuff just sits in a dead-end sector until you decide to go there and fight it?
It's the same reason the crisis isn't a proper endgame threat - you can pick and choose when to engage it, it doesn't actually threaten anything.

Similarly the "xenon too strong" crowd will never accept a solution that could actually threaten their overbuild gate defense platforms (and the eco behind them). They don't want any combat challenges in their empire building sim.

The two points are fundamentally incompatible. Xenon can be either the tutorial enemy or a real endgame threat, but not both at once, so ES either needs to decide which it's going to be or make it an option to choose on game start.
This half-assed compromising that tries to please both sides just ends up disappointing to everyone.

They already have the crisis mechanism. Just let the player choose.