xenon

[JamieDHarding]

Play is pointless unless the Xenon problem is fixed. Played over and over about 10 times even with mods to fix this. The xenon start out strong and fissile out and then HOP & ANT take over the bottom sectors with out help. Without the scary treat of the Kha'ak or Xenon the game is over. Its been this way since 7.10.

[jlehtone]

You did start with "the problem" like everybody knows what you refer to. Luckily, you then did describe what you mean.

What changes would you do, if you were a dev, to "fix the problem" and how do you expect those changes to affect the gameplay?

[JamieDHarding]

I miss x3 Reunion. Their was Kha'ak and xenon sectors, no mans land and the Kha'ak would form cubes then break up and attack. The also had destroyers when you saw them you new you were dead. I like the improved ailed response to attack's. Xenon need more sectors and be able to defend them. These sectors should be hard to take. Xenon attacks should come from all of its sectors an in sufficient numbers balanced with the response of its defenders. Xenon & Kha'ak should have the advantage because they are scary. Maybe to please everyone you could have a difficulty scale of some kind. Otherwise I love the improvements. I would also like to be able to form wings and battle groups like x3 instead of linking them. x3 Reunion had fear and mystery.

[MKL81]

You did start with "the problem" like everybody knows what you refer to. Luckily, you then did describe what you mean.

What changes would you do, if you were a dev, to "fix the problem" and how do you expect those changes to affect the gameplay?

Changes to how miners identify suitable resources? Make it so that they do not desire to mine on the other side of galaxy for resources for starters. This affects all factions, but Xenon are the most impacted, since they are enemy to everyone. If not - redesign current sector resource levels that Xenon own so that they would mine within their own sectors without changing the logic for miners. Usually that is how SPG sectors die. They send miners to far reaches of other systems, leaving only handful of them. The others get annihilated. They produce more miners. They send them again. They are annihilated again. Rinse repeat. Local miners are too slow to gather resources. The Xenon are out of stock. Then Teladi armada comes in. They wipe those few ships left along with a handful of miners. They position near Wharf/Shipyard. They have superior range. Xenon are defenseless. They die. Pretty much every game I had is like that.

Maybe increase the unit cap for Xenon? I do not know the logic exactly of course, but if Xenon H is "blocking" limit caps for XEN destroyer ships then this is also a problem, since they tend to get wiped out very easily by stations or enemy destroyers. They do good vs s-size ships, but that's it.

Change the out of sector combat logic? Seriously, there is a night and day difference on how Xenon ships perform IS and OOS. IMO Xenon are WAY too weak OOS and that is how 99% of encounters plays out.

Probably there is more ways to address these complaints, I still think there could be a slider/option for some of the settings that could influence how many stations and units the Xenon can have. "Make it as an option"

[flywlyx]

You did start with "the problem" like everybody knows what you refer to. Luckily, you then did describe what you mean.

What changes would you do, if you were a dev, to "fix the problem" and how do you expect those changes to affect the gameplay?

This is a pretty common issue—basically, with every new patch, people complain that the Xenon are too weak, useless, passive, or lack challenge.
The usual solutions suggested are either a difficulty slider or an endgame crisis. Egosoft tried the endgame crisis approach, but most players didn’t like it.
I think a difficulty slider is the only viable option now, unless they decide to rework and reintroduce the endgame crisis.

[Raptor34]

You did start with "the problem" like everybody knows what you refer to. Luckily, you then did describe what you mean.

What changes would you do, if you were a dev, to "fix the problem" and how do you expect those changes to affect the gameplay?

This is a pretty common issue—basically, with every new patch, people complain that the Xenon are too weak, useless, passive, or lack challenge.
The usual solutions suggested are either a difficulty slider or an endgame crisis. Egosoft tried the endgame crisis approach, but most players didn’t like it.
I think a difficulty slider is the only viable option now, unless they decide to rework and reintroduce the endgame crisis.

The problem with the endgame crisis is it approaches out of basically nowhere.
I don't know what others want, but I want something I can gatecamp, so basically new sectors full of Xenon. Infinite fights and all that.

[flywlyx]

The problem with the endgame crisis is it approaches out of basically nowhere.
I don't know what others want, but I want something I can gatecamp, so basically new sectors full of Xenon. Infinite fights and all that.

Agreed, jumping directly on top of the player's assets is a bad idea. I wouldn’t mind if they targeted the player’s HQ and marched there, but spawning a fixed-size fleet right on top of the player’s assets is just dull. After the third wave, there’s really no excitement left.

[Raptor34]

The problem with the endgame crisis is it approaches out of basically nowhere.
I don't know what others want, but I want something I can gatecamp, so basically new sectors full of Xenon. Infinite fights and all that.

Agreed, jumping directly on top of the player's assets is a bad idea. I wouldn’t mind if they targeted the player’s HQ and marched there, but spawning a fixed-size fleet right on top of the player’s assets is just dull. After the third wave, there’s really no excitement left.

It's not bad per se. It's just that after that it just ends. And you can only do it once, though I heard if you let the enemy escape you can do it again.
But as the only thing... I'll mix it to new Xenon sectors and Khaak jumping in, but by mix, I mean give you two separate options you can choose to activate either together or separately. Though considering the strength of the Ravager, I'm not sure how it'll work. Like how strong is it against capital ships? Like my idea would be fighter gate camps to deal with the Xenon, destroyer patrols to deal with the Khaak.

[flywlyx]

It's not bad per se. It's just that after that it just ends. And you can only do it once, though I heard if you let the enemy escape you can do it again.
But as the only thing... I'll mix it to new Xenon sectors and Khaak jumping in, but by mix, I mean give you two separate options you can choose to activate either together or separately. Though considering the strength of the Ravager, I'm not sure how it'll work. Like how strong is it against capital ships? Like my idea would be fighter gate camps to deal with the Xenon, destroyer patrols to deal with the Khaak.

If it’s just 2–3 waves, it’s not too bad, but when it’s 10–30 waves of the same thing happening over and over, it just gets boring. Watching the Xenon and Khaak fight each other can be entertaining, and when I get bored, I’ll even intentionally lure them together just to see the chaos.

What’s really missing is a genuine challenge to the universe, along with the atmosphere of everyone working together to face it. The current endgame crisis feels more like a staged show where everyone else just watches as the player takes out random enemies that appear out of nowhere.

[jlehtone]

I want something I can gatecamp, so basically new sectors full of Xenon. Infinite fights and all that.

Infinite fights with no danger. That covers most players. Those, who do not want any fight to stay safe, for the rest some turkeys.

However,

I miss x3 Reunion. Their was Kha'ak and xenon sectors, no mans land

and we were not able to affect sector ownership and "economy" in any real way.
Endless turkey shoot was fine, when the Space Invaders was the pinnacle of games.

Being able to halt the logistics of enemy is a jewel of X4. Great power. Unfortunately,
Spiderman-something does apply.


[EDIT]
X3R Kha'ak very scary: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zk9cmb ... sp=sharing
(Truth: Kha'ak very scared.)

[Raptor34]

I want something I can gatecamp, so basically new sectors full of Xenon. Infinite fights and all that.

Infinite fights with no danger. That covers most players. Those, who do not want any fight to stay safe, for the rest some turkeys.

However,

I miss x3 Reunion. Their was Kha'ak and xenon sectors, no mans land

and we were not able to affect sector ownership and "economy" in any real way.
Endless turkey shoot was fine, when the Space Invaders was the pinnacle of games.

Being able to halt the logistics of enemy is a jewel of X4. Great power. Unfortunately,
Spiderman-something does apply.


[EDIT]
X3R Kha'ak very scary: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zk9cmb ... sp=sharing
(Truth: Kha'ak very scared.)

More or less yeah. Nowadays I can't just cruise into Xenon sectors and blow some things up, because then those lizards with their 100 Phoenixes would come in and burn the rest of the sector into the ground.
And when they are all burned down, I need to go after factions next, and then at the end of the day it's a dead universe.
I prefer to keep the status quo.

[flywlyx]

Infinite fights with no danger. That covers most players. Those, who do not want any fight to stay safe, for the rest some turkeys.

X4 lacks real danger because the AI is so poorly designed. This leaves you with two scenarios: a boring situation you can manage or a boring situation you can’t manage. I doubt anyone prefers the latter.

[LameFox]

I do find the current status quo pretty boring. Time and time again I get a few days/week into a game and find the Xenon are being eradicated without any intervention from me. I can possibly fix it by sabotaging the other factions but it is such a strange thing to have to do.

Regarding what changes might help, I think:

-moving some Xenon wharves and shipyards deeper into their territory. It only takes one Asgard or a few destroyers to get in and start damaging these to completely ruin their chances of recovery.

-have them keep a pool of reserve SEs that *only* serve their shipyard and wharf and don't go out to build stations, because this is often how they lose a big chunk of them, and it seems to spiral downward from there.

-look at the low attention balance of turrets vs forward guns. Xenon in particular which rely entirely on the Graviton turret are quite formidable if you watch them fight but don't seem that impressive when facing destroyers or Asgards in low-attention. Another good illustration of this is the performance of Kha'ak Ravagers. These appear much more powerful in low attention where their gun is not subject to being aimed.

It may also be worth looking at their costs, since a lot of their worse performance seems to have come about as the commonwealth economy grew more robust. I suspect their balance has long been tuned based on the very weak starting conditions endured by the other factions for most of the game.

[taztaz502]

I would love to see the xenon more contained, but a bigger threat.

E.g. have HAT, ARG and ZYA form a coalition in Tharkas Cascade XV and place destroyers along their trade lanes and at gates, while the xenon attack traders etc constantly but are gathering a bigger fleet to actually invade..

If anyone played litcubes i would prefer the xenon to be much more like the OCV.

[LameFox]

I doubt they want an OCV type situation as default. Would have made a good end crisis, but alas...

Right now I think what the Xenon mostly need are changes that facilitate defending themselves a bit better. I'd be hesitant to do anything too drastic as they still can be circumstantially dangerous, especially in specific areas where the "terrain" advantages them, and to weaker factions. But they shouldn't be getting erased even in games where the player does nothing.

[taztaz502]

I doubt they want an OCV type situation as default. Would have made a good end crisis, but alas...

Right now I think what the Xenon mostly need are changes that facilitate defending themselves a bit better. I'd be hesitant to do anything too drastic as they still can be circumstantially dangerous, especially in specific areas where the "terrain" advantages them, and to weaker factions. But they shouldn't be getting erased even in games where the player does nothing.

Why? They were that slow they wouldn't even bother the mass number of players unless they wanted too as they expanded so slowly.

Beats them getting wiped out and seeing your save game become instantly stagnant.

[LameFox]

Sure but OCV had a lot of sectors to get through before they reached most of the map, and the map itself had a lot of sectors in it. X4 is not set up that way. And for the most part they don't seem to (intentionally) create situations we have to deal with, generally if something drastic can happen we have to make it. That's why I was hoping for something like it in the end crisis.

[MKL81]

I do find the current status quo pretty boring. Time and time again I get a few days/week into a game and find the Xenon are being eradicated without any intervention from me. I can possibly fix it by sabotaging the other factions but it is such a strange thing to have to do.

Regarding what changes might help, I think:

-moving some Xenon wharves and shipyards deeper into their territory. It only takes one Asgard or a few destroyers to get in and start damaging these to completely ruin their chances of recovery.

-have them keep a pool of reserve SEs that *only* serve their shipyard and wharf and don't go out to build stations, because this is often how they lose a big chunk of them, and it seems to spiral downward from there.

-look at the low attention balance of turrets vs forward guns. Xenon in particular which rely entirely on the Graviton turret are quite formidable if you watch them fight but don't seem that impressive when facing destroyers or Asgards in low-attention. Another good illustration of this is the performance of Kha'ak Ravagers. These appear much more powerful in low attention where their gun is not subject to being aimed.

It may also be worth looking at their costs, since a lot of their worse performance seems to have come about as the commonwealth economy grew more robust. I suspect their balance has long been tuned based on the very weak starting conditions endured by the other factions for most of the game.

Same. I think that low attention hugely cripples Xenon in general. There were numerous encounters where I did try OOS vs IS. The results were all over the place, with Xenon being wiped out with zero casualties in low attention vs Xenon destroying a couple of destroyers and some of the defence station modules before being defeated. Next wave could actually make it through, if other faction was not quick enough to rebuild the station.

[Raptor34]

I would argue it's not that OOS cripples Xenon, it's IS cripples factions instead. Because OOS is logically the end result of the superior ranges of faction destroyers, the dumb AI just makes the Xenon looks smarter than they are.
Xenon for some of their dead end sector should get an XL turret for a super station or something. Like a combo shipyard/wharf that also has weapons that can outrange others. Dead end because in that way, it wouldn't be something you feel you need to clear for trade or whatever, so something you can deal with at your leisure.
And I've also suggested some kind of missile boat, but for defense only, because the argument is that having players deal with suddenly missiles is unpleasant, this can be dealt with by reserving them for defense and the crisis.

[LameFox]

I guess, but we've been wanting ships to aim properly in high attention forever. If that's not going to happen, and it doesn't seem like it is, the other solution to resolve the discrepancy is make their main guns less accurate in low attention too. Whatever the solution, I think for balancing things in general it's important for high and low attention outcomes to be similar.