[Closed] X4: Foundations Official Poll - Which Boost mechanic do you prefer?

[Ragnos28]

I'd prefer the second option but i don't care much. Part of me hopes that they leave the current system just to see the forum reaction

My position is that, if the boost logic change mess up my fleet combat experience, for example by rendering turrets useless, or unnecessarily prolonging engagements between/with S/M ships, a.k.a wasting my time, I'm totally ready to walk away from X4, I've had my 5k hours in, got way more than my money worth.
X4 is a highly addictive game, and my gaming time is limited, so I wouldn't mind to gain the freedom to fill my gaming space with other games, maybe other space sims.

[PV_]

If you check various Let's Plays you’ll see that the guy almost always sees a game over during his first serious combat encounter. Like 90%. The vast majority of new players are distracted while their shield depletes below the escape reserve.

I've seen escape opportunity wasted to initiate bad combat or for mindless reposition in multiplayer games so many times that I don't see the new boosting as a lifesaver. That is what experience/learning is about. Jumping in Xenon fighter wing with starting ship because "I'll show you machines who bloodbags are!" should be punished.

if you could kite small enemies and basically never die. Is this arcadey and lame? Yes. But is it more fun for the masses? Yes.

You said it the way that new boosting has almost instant recharge. What I can't endorse. If it will get protracted delay then some newbies may see it as limiting fun of a fight. How they will behave is quite subjective speculation. For vets its questionable as well, because with purple recharge/delay mod I'll back in the fight in the matter of several seconds while new boosting may not provide that opportunity.
I don't stand against the feature, I want to see details first if I'm asked for opinion. And the opinion must have a basis.
Getting ahead I almost sure the feature will take place. Most likely the only barrier that could impact the decision is whole community resistance. Which didn't happen. Rest is just speculating in here.

With old boost it's 0 or 1 - either too boost away to safety or AI boost it's shields to handle you victory on a plate.
With new boost it's no longer 0 or 1 coz post boosting there is still window for fight and manouver, for both player and for AI.

Which one will be more tactical?

First one.
- because one has to think, evaluate balance of powers and their own capabilities now. May be it remains with rebalanced boosting. I don't know. Nobody knows. Its pure juggling with guesses atm.
- with first strike I may deplete S shields and an enemy boosts nowhere. M ship will boost for rest of their shield and in practice won't restore them till the end of the fight. What is a possible outcome with tweaked feature? Any ship boosts away as soon as their shields below 80-90%. Good luck fighting multiple ships at once, each of them escapes when focused and while you're retargeting your ass gets heated by wingmates. If you waste boost to reach first one runaway then you have to wait for boost recharge before proceed with fighting. Fun? No. And lets not discuss the case when you remain in the fight, all enemies escaped and offered you an opportunity to gather that scattered mess around.

Not to mention with new boost we might finally have more depth with boost options?

Who or what restricts adding more boosting variety to current boosting system?

[mr.WHO]

Who or what restricts adding more boosting variety to current boosting system?

Nothing, but adding boost variety to current system does nothing to AI and shields problem either.


There won't be any benefit from boost variety due to the fact that people who complain abotu current system would still be affected by sheilds and AI flaws.

[PV_]

Nothing, but adding boost variety to current system does nothing to AI and shields problem either.

- lets say there is safe 8km distance for ship to escape. Does it make change if ship has lost all shield remains or only half of it?
- does boosting max speed impacts boosting efficiency?
- balancing recharge delay / regeneration rate?

There is enough to add/change at what already exists. For example, more shield slots as a boost duration addition/recharge delay, more boost time for initially slow ships and less for ones with high speed, etc.

And yes, there is still huge room for AI improvements and I'm not sure that room becomes any much tighter after feature rebalance.

[mr.WHO]

And yes, there is still huge room for AI improvements and I'm not sure that room becomes any much tighter after feature rebalance.

No there isn't - we are already past 7.0 and Egosoft made multiple failed attempts to fix AI boosting to it's own demise.

As I said multiple times here in this topic - you can continue to pretend square wheels are fine and there is a room for improvement...or you can do the obvious solution and pick round wheels.

[PV_]

No there isn't - we are already past 7.0 and Egosoft made multiple failed attempts to fix AI boosting to it's own demise.

Is it hard to program capitals spoil travel engine up instead of boosting on gate crossing?

As I said multiple times here in this topic - you can continue to pretend square wheels are fine and there is a room for improvement...or you can do the obvious solution and pick round wheels.

Except there is no proof new wheels are round ones but pure imagination.

[mr.WHO]

No there isn't - we are already past 7.0 and Egosoft made multiple failed attempts to fix AI boosting to it's own demise.

1) Is it hard to program capitals spoil travel engine up instead of boosting on gate crossing?

As I said multiple times here in this topic - you can continue to pretend square wheels are fine and there is a room for improvement...or you can do the obvious solution and pick round wheels.

2) Except there is no proof new wheels are round ones but pure imagination.

1) Egosoft tried multiple times and we still where we are.

2) Multiple different space-sims and space shooters that have boosters with separate energy bar - Freespace 1 & 2, Starlancer, possibly (It's been decades since I played) Freelancer.
That's why I'm using roudn and square wheel as an examble.
Egosoft has ben using square since X-BTF, but multiple other games prove that wheel is superior.

[Submarine]

I'd prefer the second option but i don't care much. Part of me hopes that they leave the current system just to see the forum reaction

My position is that, if the boost logic change mess up my fleet combat experience, for example by rendering turrets useless, or unnecessarily prolonging engagements between/with S/M ships, a.k.a wasting my time, I'm totally ready to walk away from X4, I've had my 5k hours in, got way more than my money worth.
X4 is a highly addictive game, and my gaming time is limited, so I wouldn't mind to gain the freedom to fill my gaming space with other games, maybe other space sims.

With apologies to shield boost fans, I voted for the new version, as a tactical necessity... I do quite like shield boost tactics in the way you can trap then capture opponents. Using it myself to flee is superceded by avoiding ganks in the first place but stopping the other guy getting away is always useful and losing that will make capture harder.

Despite that I voted new boost because I want egosoft to do something about the problems boost creates. If I vote to keep shield boost they may do nothing at all. If they have to overcome inertia to change boost, they might see the sense of adding boost controls, MIA since forever, which would ironically make shield boost playable for me. Even more irony, if they change boost the missing higher level boost controls remain unhelpful but no longer stop me playing because boost does not kill my squadron of misfit heroes so I no longer need to micro.

That is why I included both quotes because in reply, I stopped playing X4 after a mere 927 hours because of the absent boost controls Nov 26 2022, two years ago. No emotional blackmail intended, just want to explain why for purposes of feedback, because of muscle memory of a long standing beta testing involvement in X, so egosoft people understand.

The reason is the game itself creates an impasse. To recap, the internal spaces and crew interactions I love, they are great, employee management and training likewise. I have to admit to feeling encouraged to engage in imaginary scenarios regarding the characters and motivations of my people. So I really dont like it when they get themselves killed because they depleted their shields by boosting about inexpertly in the middle of a dog fight, even with costly and laborious better pilot training which helps not a jot. Not to put too fine a point on it, it ticks me off, because I invest real game time and effort recruiting and training them, not to mention inventing a back story. That is the root of my frustration, being a caring employer and indulging in a little roleplay which I feel the game supports. The effort put into the interiors, character, races and dialogues is excellent and deserves that kind of appreciation. It just needs to be matched in the fight controls.

So I have to reload when my people die which is shameful but true. To minimise the reloading, (I know an old lady who swallowed a fly...) after empirical tests on the same battle saves, I have to micro every single attack order, both autogenerated and manually assigned, to switch off boost and this gives the best outcomes for my small squad of (6-12) captured ships. Multiple new start playthroughs, multiple battle tests, it always comes to this. - Despite all this "we" captured pirate DDs and stood guard against the Xenon, even taking down Is and Ks by piloting a fighter with Burst Rays and having the squad tackle the escorts. Such larks but every battle was a horror show of micro because I had to switch off boost for every attack order, which became unbearable especially when the fleet grew. Why? Because boost is on by default and there is no way to set the default to off, that tiny little thing made the game unplayable.

X4 makes pilots and other employees part of immersion, plunges you into fights but does not give you the tools to manage combat effectively. I stopped because I reached a point of frustration which meant I could not play on. I felt it best on balance not to get jaded by persevering with X4 while it is still in too rough a state, I hoped to see it reach a higher level of playability before investing more time in it.

I hope this thread and question about new boost is the beginning of egosoft making the fight game more playable. Fingers crossed, doing my best to provide constructive feedback.

[jlehtone]

Torx is less "round" than hexagon, but has more traction.


How about a "compromise":
* Allow us to continue to fly with the old boost
* Allow us to forbid all use of boost from our pilots
Then you, your pilots, and NPC are free to use the new boost. Win-win?

[PV_]

1) Egosoft tried multiple times and we still where we are.

At what version of the game devs implemented immediate spoiling travel engine up instead of lots of maneuvering and boosting? That isn't the thing in v5 and 6, and I can't recall it in v7 (didn't pay attention).

2) Multiple different space-sims and space shooters that have boosters with separate energy bar - Freespace 1 & 2, Starlancer, possibly (It's been decades since I played) Freelancer.
That's why I'm using roudn and square wheel as an examble.
Egosoft has ben using square since X-BTF, but multiple other games prove that wheel is superior.

Didn't play any of those except for Freelancer (don't remember if boosting a thing here as well). But if something matches one gameplay it may break another one. Once again details are needed to make statements.

[GCU Grey Area]

2) Multiple different space-sims and space shooters that have boosters with separate energy bar - Freespace 1 & 2, Starlancer, possibly (It's been decades since I played) Freelancer.
That's why I'm using roudn and square wheel as an examble.
Egosoft has ben using square since X-BTF, but multiple other games prove that wheel is superior.

Proves nothing except that is your subjective opinion. Mine's different. Played all the same games & vastly prefer X4's shield depleting boost mechanic, where I have to continually evaluate whether the current situation is best handled by a sudden burst of speed, or conserving energy for my shields. Free boosting either wildly unbalances the game in the player's favour, or is balanced against limited usage or slow recharge, meaning that it's only practical use is being reserved for emergency situations. Neither of those outcomes is something I'd enjoy - the first would make dogfighting far too easy, much less satisfying & unappealing to participate in, while the second would make it far less exhilarating, less satisfying & unappealing to participate in.

[vkerinav]

In terms of tactical design, the best solution is the one that creates the most options at the least cost. You <i>want</i> full power to shields, if you need it, not reserve energy for boosting. You want to be able to burn shields to escape a tense situation, if you need to. How is it really better to not be able to escape because you've spent your boost energy, but your shields are up, so you can survive ten more seconds, which isn't enough because it takes a really long time to recharge boost.

What I'm trying to say is, more options is always better, and the current system provides more options. There's no square wheels here, either, which is an unnecessarily extreme metaphor. More like, we're debating what brand of tire to use on our wheel.

[mr.WHO]

Proves nothing except that is your subjective opinion. Mine's different. Played all the same games & vastly prefer X4's shield depleting boost mechanic, where I have to continually evaluate whether the current situation is best handled by a sudden burst of speed, or conserving energy for my shields. Free boosting either wildly unbalances the game in the player's favour, or is balanced against limited usage or slow recharge, meaning that it's only practical use is being reserved for emergency situations. Neither of those outcomes is something I'd enjoy - the first would make dogfighting far too easy, much less satisfying & unappealing to participate in, while the second would make it far less exhilarating, less satisfying & unappealing to participate in.

Boost will still be limited, just like shields are limited by recharge.
Why people don't complain that shields are free? Because it was figured out for ages in many games that shields recharge. There might be one or two games that do it differently or no shields, but it's established gameplay standard that if there are shields, in 99.99% gameplay cases they recharge for free.

Same is with boost.
Different types of new boost will in fact make them less OP in player hands and even the field with AI.

You want to use boost in combat movement? pick Split boost with short but powerful boost with fast recharge rate - you won't be able run away (not a Splti way), but you will be able to use boost to dodge fire (totally Split way).
You want to use boost as a backup escape plan? pick Teladi boost with low performace but very large capacitor...just make sure you pick your escape route wisely coz once you boost away it will take ages to recharge.

These will be, to basic extend usable by AI - Egosoft will no longer need to limit AI boost, so it could be more liberal in using boost ofensively and defensively.


Current X4 boost it slightly nerfed X-Rebirth boost - it's completely OP and boring.
People keep telling it's tactical, but after just a moderate experience, there is very few situations where anything in universe could hurt you.
You really need to not watch out at all, to be caught without booster shields reserve (I don't consider myself a combat top gun - it's just very easy to take a brief look at your surroundings and knew if it's time to boost or not - this is nothing complex or tactical).

The way I see, it's the old boost that is free out of jail card.
New boost will make combat much more spicy than current cheesing old booster by player against handicapped AI.

We are running in circles I think we have this back and forth several times already.

[EGO_Aut]

With the new boost i can make my OP Asgard, Erlking and even M's like Katana or Kuraokami super OP We all want that, dont you

Do you realy change the engine when your round tires have no air

What shells, we will see. We still can complain when it comes, or play somthing else where it works

[GCU Grey Area]

Current X4 boost it slightly nerfed X-Rebirth boost - it's completely OP and boring.
People keep telling it's tactical, but after just a moderate experience, there is very few situations where anything in universe could hurt you.
You really need to not watch out at all, to be caught without booster shields reserve (I don't consider myself a combat top gun - it's just very easy to take a brief look at your surroundings and knew if it's time to boost or not - this is nothing complex or tactical).

The way I see, it's the old boost that is free out of jail card.
New boost will make combat much more spicy than current cheesing old booster by player against handicapped AI.

We are running in circles I think we have this back and forth several times already.

As with many things in this game the degree to which elements of it are OP, boring or cheesy is highly dependent on how each player approaches the game. Game's very flexible in that regard. Personally find the current boosters highly exhilarating.

It's essential for me to carefully consider exactly how much of my shields I'm willing to expend in each boost because I'm generally not out of danger when each boost ends. I don't use sustained boosts to get out of the fight & wait until shields are fully restored before returning. Just don't find that approach to combat remotely satisfying - makes each fight take far too long to keep me interested.

Yes, we have had this discussion before, however felt the need to reply because you seem to have misunderstood how I use my boosters & why I like them exactly as they are now.

[mr.WHO]

The reason why I'm so for new system is because I seen traces of potential already ingame - once a blue moon, by sheer accident AI is able to use boost in fun and amazing manner.

I really think combat will be much more fun, when AI won't be handicapped by shield drain on boost.

Ultimately, we'll only be able to find out and tune it in betatesting, if Egosoft will decide to go for new boost.

[EGO_Aut]

The reason why I'm so for new system is because I seen traces of potential already ingame - once a blue moon, by sheer accident AI is able to use boost in fun and amazing manner.

I really think combat will be much more fun, when AI won't be handicapped by shield drain on boost.

Ultimately, we'll only be able to find out and tune it in betatesting, if Egosoft will decide to go for new boost.

The problem is not tackled at its root. - The AI, not the boost mechanic!
I do not see potential, only a work around.
AI will stay dump as it is, and the players "skill" will be buffed to be more careless.
No need to drift, just boost, boost, attack, boost, boost, aso. But dont forget to buy TER DLC with ultimate shields and engines......

I hope ES will prove me wrong.

[GCU Grey Area]

The reason why I'm so for new system is because I seen traces of potential already ingame - once a blue moon, by sheer accident AI is able to use boost in fun and amazing manner.

I see the same, although wouldn't characterise it as a 'blue moon' event & I don't think it was by accident. Fairly sure they were programmed to act in that way. Countless times I've had an enemy lined up in my crosshairs, about to deliver the killing blow, only for them to activate their boosters & they're gone. Leaves me with the dilemma of whether on not to boost after them. Usually not, by the way. Have learnt from experience (of the Game Over kind) that using my boosters twice in rapid succession can end poorly. Tends to work out better for me to switch targets to something closer at that point, so in that respect AI use of boosters (even with shield drain) was achieving the appropriate result.

[mr.WHO]

I see the same, although wouldn't characterise it as a 'blue moon' event & I don't think it was by accident. Fairly sure they were programmed to act in that way. Countless times I've had an enemy lined up in my crosshairs, about to deliver the killing blow, only for them to activate their boosters & they're gone. Leaves me with the dilemma of whether on not to boost after them. Usually not, by the way. Have learnt from experience (of the Game Over kind) that using my boosters twice in rapid succession can end poorly. Tends to work out better for me to switch targets to something closer at that point, so in that respect AI use of boosters (even with shield drain) was achieving the appropriate result.

I would like to point out that from your description, even your subconscous tells that it' would be right/fun to let loose on the booster - both players and AI crave boosters, let them loose!

The problem is not tackled at its root. - The AI, not the boost mechanic!
I do not see potential, only a work around.
AI will stay dump as it is, and the players "skill" will be buffed to be more careless.
No need to drift, just boost, boost, attack, boost, boost, aso. But dont forget to buy TER DLC with ultimate shields and engines......

You're not wrong, but by God Egosoft tried many times - at some point it's time to accept failure and seek alternative.

[GCU Grey Area]

I would like to point out that from your description, even your subconscous tells that it' would be right/fun to let loose on the booster - both players and AI crave boosters, let them loose!

No, again you're misunderstanding my post. I thoroughly enjoy the way dogfighting currently works. I love it when enemies use their boosters to effectively force me to switch targets. It's exactly the right thing for them to do in the circumstances. It would not be right, or fun, if the game gave me boosters with no consequences for continuing the pursuit. For me combat is only fun if I feel challenged by it & have a distinct risk of it all going horribly wrong if I make mistakes or judge a situation poorly (e.g. by boosting after a fleeing foe, thus depleting my shields to a dangerous degree).