Round 4 of Would you use Steam for Rebirth thread

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quase
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Post by quase »

As we are talking of games I thought there was of course the most important thing to discuss right here.
Try talking to somebody about political issues, try raising an actual problem to think about in this society and you will earn nothing but ignorance either. Go ask some people why they vote liberals/democrats if they are not going with their political agenda, the answer might probably be "because I always did" or maybe "I do not go voting".
Slashman wrote: You keep talking about the music industry learning it the hard way, but that happened because people cared about moving music between devices. Steam doesn't stop you from having your game on a hundred PCs or from making a backup. For most people, that's fine.
Really? In my experience it was because the copy protection on the CDs was so good that even original CDs were not played properly in your normal CD player. At least my only purchased DRM protected audio CD did never work properly on any CD player. Only the rip-off worked!
The account binding that came with iTunes for example should not have been more inconvenient for the customer as games are with Steam now. The music industry would have just needed to tell everyone to be always online and lock into their iTunes account to listen to their music. I wonder why they did not do so ...
For Steam it is also not true that you can install and play a game without being online once. You need a Steam account and verify the game online every time you want to install it, even from a backup.
Slashman wrote: The problem is that you're telling other people what they should think is 'better'. If they don't actually have a problem with something, you can't convince them that they do until there is an actual issue.
See and there comes the shut down of Steam in handy. Switch it off for a month or two and let us see if the people care? If not, it could at least help to bring them to other maybe more healthier free-time activities. Maybe they can put the time into doing something more important? It won't happen? Of course it won't happen, but it would be the only way that the people would even remotely care about account binding and DRM (in form of Steam for example).

You read about the upcoming Sim City 5 and its always-online feature? I won't even talk about Diablo 3 and the Battle.net as I have given up on Blizzard years ago. Still the people buy it like mad because they are blinded by a marketing campaign and will never care about the implications of the DRM system a game comes with.

Look after all it is business. I could not care less, if companies that offer solely through Steam close their doors or not. They can sell wherever they want, but if they want my money, they will have to offer an account free alternative. That means I have an installer that does not need to be online to activate. Even if Deep Silver will be successful with their Steam-only-way which I still doubt, they could have been even more successful doing it Steam-free as well.

The thing you mentioned with the sales is proven to be spread quite differently for CD Projekts Witcher 2 again. If offered a choice, more than 70% of the people will still choose a hard copy from retail without Steam being involved. The only market where it differs is the USA again with something about 70% of overall numbers through Steam, so quite the opposite of the rest of the world. Seeing that the USA is surely a big market and important I fail to see a reason why the rest of the world should get the same bad conditions that the Americans obviously love for the reason that they have no functioning retail market any more. Blame the consolisation of the US market for the death of PC retailers I would say.
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rusky
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Post by rusky »

quase wrote: You read about the upcoming Sim City 5 and its always-online feature? I won't even talk about Diablo 3 and the Battle.net as I have given up on Blizzard years ago. Still the people buy it like mad because they are blinded by a marketing campaign and will never care about the implications of the DRM system a game comes with.
.
Have you even considered for a second that they buy it like mad because they expect a good game and couldn't care less about the DRM because it's not intrusive enough to bother them ? [/b]
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quase
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Post by quase »

rusky wrote: Have you even considered for a second that they buy it like mad because they expect a good game and couldn't care less about the DRM because it's not intrusive enough to bother them ?
A "good" game is in my opinion no excuse to overthrow simple principles of customer-supplier-relationships. I think we are not addicted to games as much as the next junkie is, are we? So the marketing campaigns surely lure you into a hype making you believe, "this is a must have" title, no matter the conditions it needs. Clever of them of course, but maybe also a weakness of us customers getting manipulated.
Last edited by quase on Wed, 28. Mar 12, 20:47, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Deleted User »

How much do you have invested in steam? This may be of interest to you and others.

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/02 ... eam-games/
Jumee
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Post by Jumee »

people just apparently cant even imagine that someone can just not care about DRM, it is not intrusive enough for me to be bothered and I do not mind opening 3rd party app to play a game

I don't love steam I dont hate steam - I just use it - just like I use GoG to get older games that I cant get otherwise, and digital purchases are pretty much the only ones I'm interested in because I have to move around all the time and do not feel like carrying CD's with me, and I do not even feel like going to a store looking for a DVD if I can purchase it with 2-3 clicks

both Steam and GoG do that - they allow me to get games that I would not have gotten otherwise - X being one of them - and that is pretty much all I want them to do, with or without DRM

the whole talks about do we own games on steam? could not care less - I have never resold a single CD/DVD I have owned so its not like they were ever of any real monetary value

the talks about Steam going down? companies will move their games to other platforms if that happens and you know why? not because they are good and kind but because they want to continue selling their product to get money - so that is not a real issue too - obviously some will not, but well again - tough luck

it all breaks down to personal preference - not some sort of a battle between good and evil

EDIT/DISCLAIMER: I am not saying that you shouldnt have your non-steam version what I'm saying is that there is no need to make it an "ideology" thing or at least try to bring salvation and enlighten steam/digital-distribution users
Slashman
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Post by Slashman »

As we are talking of games I thought there was of course the most important thing to discuss right here.
Try talking to somebody about political issues, try raising an actual problem to think about in this society and you will earn nothing but ignorance either. Go ask some people why they vote liberals/democrats if they are not going with their political agenda, the answer might probably be "because I always did" or maybe "I do not go voting".
And you think that the way to cure people of apathy is to simply tell them what choice is the right one for them? They still have to make whatever choice needs to be made. And they may not make one that you agree with.
Really? In my experience it was because the copy protection on the CDs was so good that even original CDs were not played properly in your normal CD player. At least my only purchased DRM protected audio CD did never work properly on any CD player. Only the rip-off worked!
Sorry...I thought you were talking about the removal of DRM from online music retailers. That seemed like a more relevant example to me.
The account binding that came with iTunes for example should not have been more inconvenient for the customer as games are with Steam now. The music industry would have just needed to tell everyone to be always online and lock into their iTunes account to listen to their music. I wonder why they did not do so ...
Because music is listened to on other devices besides iPods and PCs. PC games are only played on PCs. iTunes originally actually tried to prevent you from moving music between devices that weren't either running iTunes or weren't iPods. That caused problems for most people so it stopped when people began to look elsewhere for their music.
For Steam it is also not true that you can install and play a game without being online once. You need a Steam account and verify the game online every time you want to install it, even from a backup.
I don't recall anyone saying otherwise. Yes, you have to validate your install at least once on the computer you install the game on while being online.
See and there comes the shut down of Steam in handy. Switch it off for a month or two and let us see if the people care? If not, it could at least help to bring them to other maybe more healthier free-time activities. Maybe they can put the time into doing something more important? It won't happen? Of course it won't happen, but it would be the only way that the people would even remotely care about account binding and DRM (in form of Steam for example).
I'm all for interesting experiments, but I'm not sure that wouldn't just see people switch to something else pointless to fill their time. Do you plan to shut down Facebook, Twitter and whatever other social networking services are popular these days?
You read about the upcoming Sim City 5 and its always-online feature? I won't even talk about Diablo 3 and the Battle.net as I have given up on Blizzard years ago. Still the people buy it like mad because they are blinded by a marketing campaign and will never care about the implications of the DRM system a game comes with.
Read about it and I'm not buying it. I have no problem with online authentication to register or activate a game, but if I have to maintain a constant internet connection to ensure smooth play, then it doesn't get my money. Hence, I'll be skipping Diablo 3(which looks a little too streamlined anyway) and looking forward to Grim Dawn instead. Oh and Torchlight 2 if it looks entertaining enough.
The thing you mentioned with the sales is proven to be spread quite differently for CD Projekts Witcher 2 again. If offered a choice, more than 70% of the people will still choose a hard copy from retail without Steam being involved.
Well that's a bit different. There was no hard copy available with Steamworks integration to compare it to. I've no doubt that people will buy hard copies whenever they can, as long as they are readily available, but that doesn't prove that they prefer to have a hardcopy specifically without Steam being used for activation.

Also note that Witcher 2 offered a heck of a lot of cool stuff in the box for people who bought it that way. Unlike a lot of developers who skimp on what they put in the box, even the standard editions had nice stuff in them.
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Argonaught.
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Post by Argonaught. »

strude wrote:Steam email you a receipt which you could print. That good enough? :P
I'd still need the boxed disc for me library, a receipt is nice and all but not the same as a box with disc. :)
EmperorJon wrote:@Argonaut.

So... you'll never buy any software then? Doesn't matter if you can hold the box, or disk, or whatever. What matters is that it's on your harddrive. ;)
I do buy software etc, it's just that I like to also receive a physical disk also, don't mind using something like steam as long as I have the full software/game on a disk in a box on a shelf.

note:
I did have a steam account years back.
When halflife 2 came out I had to register with them for some reason, probably to play it i think.

Anyway a few hdd's and computer upgrades/builds later, as well as a house move, ended up with me loosing the account details.
I can't even remember what email i had at the time because i only used it that once for HL2.

Only one lost game but it could've been a couple or couple hundred.

So yea, because stuff like paper can get lost and HDD's fry I like to have a hardcopy now of any software that costs me money.

example:
I build all my own PC's and bought OEM hardcopies of Win95, 98, XP, Win7 , I skipped over Vista as it was buggy as hell and resource heavy from what i hear.

So I do buy software, I just like to have it to hand for when I spread it all out on the floor and lay naked with it all :P :D

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Post by Deleted User »

Slashman wrote:Well that's a bit different. There was no hard copy available with Steamworks integration to compare it to.
Oxymoron, surely?
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Post by Deleted User »

Argonaught. wrote:So I do buy software, I just like to have it to hand for when I spread it all out on the floor and lay naked with it all :P :D
Argo.
:lol:
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quase
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Post by quase »

Slashman wrote: I'm all for interesting experiments, but I'm not sure that wouldn't just see people switch to something else pointless to fill their time. Do you plan to shut down Facebook, Twitter and whatever other social networking services are popular these days?
Sure why not. Even better, why not switch off the whole Internet for a month, two or three? Maybe the get-aware-of-things-that-do-not-work-without-the-Internet-quarter 2012, starting on 1st April. I am all for it. :D

The iPod story is again a pretty US limited topic it seems to me. Sure they spread here as well, but as far as I am aware the DRM was already none-existing at this point.

If I interpret your sayings about Witcher 2 correctly, if a game has enough content it will be bought with or without Steam anyway. Well just tells that people do not care, but do you really think it would have the same success if the hard copy was Steam-bound. In my opinion the DRM-free GOG.com version would have profited from such a scenario because I for example would have chosen this version instead of a Steam-bound hard copy any day. Worst case would have been a lot of missed sales by CD Projekt with the Steam-binding or at least it would not have been the same success the game is right now.
On the other hand another conclusion must be, if a game has insufficient content and may probably be unsatisfying for the customer it is very convenient for the publisher to bind the game to a platform like Steam to prevent people from re-selling it? Not that this does in anyway say something about the overall business strategy by Deep Silver or the quality of upcoming Egosoft titles. :wink:
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Post by EmperorJon »

quase wrote:Not that this does in anyway say something about the overall business strategy by Deep Silver or the quality of upcoming Egosoft titles. :wink:
Yes, the entire purpose of Steam is to allow developers to do a half-arsed job and not worry about people trying to resell the game. You've hit the nail bang on the head there.
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Post by Deleted User »

EmperorJon wrote:
quase wrote:Not that this does in anyway say something about the overall business strategy by Deep Silver or the quality of upcoming Egosoft titles. :wink:
Yes, the entire purpose of Steam is to allow developers to do a half-arsed job and not worry about people trying to resell the game. You've hit the nail bang on the head there.
The entire purpose of steam is to sell you nothing at price and restrict you while your at it.
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Post by EmperorJon »

Also agree with this statement. I can't access any of my Steam games (which don't exist) when I want to.
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quase
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Post by quase »

EmperorJon wrote:
quase wrote:Not that this does in anyway say something about the overall business strategy by Deep Silver or the quality of upcoming Egosoft titles. :wink:
Yes, the entire purpose of Steam is to allow developers to do a half-arsed job and not worry about people trying to resell the game. You've hit the nail bang on the head there.
At least it is one of the major advantages that the publishers get from account binding. The used market is destroyed and as everybody may have noticed already by the talk and acting of most publishers, the used games market is as damaging to the system as piracy is. Although this fight has to be won especially on console games of course because account binding has dried out used games and game renting on the PC nearly completely already. This is also why the next generation of consoles will come with account binding and forced online authentication as well. The system has successfully been proved working with the PC folks.

By the way can you imagine that we had stores in town where you could rent videos, DVDs, console games or even PC games for a few days, maybe over the weekend? I wonder where they have gone to. :?
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Post by Deleted User »

EmperorJon wrote:Also agree with this statement. I can't access any of my Steam games (which don't exist) when I want to.
See here for 'scheduled' inability to access your 'own' games:-

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/s ... p?t=784745
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Post by EmperorJon »

fox jumps wrote:
EmperorJon wrote:Also agree with this statement. I can't access any of my Steam games (which don't exist) when I want to.
See here for 'scheduled' inability to access your 'own' games:-

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/s ... p?t=784745
You obviously didn't pick up my sarcasm.

Anyway, I'll leave this here for amusment and leave. :D
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Post by Jumee »

EmperorJon wrote:You obviously didn't pick up my sarcasm.

Anyway, I'll leave this here for amusment and leave. :D
:lol: :lol: :lol: favorited :D

EDIT: how did you find it????
Last edited by Jumee on Wed, 28. Mar 12, 23:56, edited 1 time in total.
Slashman
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Post by Slashman »

quase wrote:By the way can you imagine that we had stores in town where you could rent videos, DVDs, console games or even PC games for a few days, maybe over the weekend? I wonder where they have gone to. :?
Well since Steam is a 'rental service', you can just wait for a sale and rent any game for up to 75% off. The upside is you don't get any overtime charges even if you keep it for years. Can't beat that value...
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Post by Deleted User »

*conditions apply
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Post by angrytigerp »

fox jumps wrote:How much do you have invested in steam? This may be of interest to you and others.

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/02 ... eam-games/
Funny thing about that article...
But [gamer lawyer Jas Purewal] explains that the commonly taken position is that when we buy a boxed game, we own the DVD, but only have a license for the software on it. “A ‘licence’,” Purewal explains, “is essentially a limited personal right to use the software on certain terms and conditions – it doesn’t give you the right to e.g. sell/transfer/copy/reproduce the software.”

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