So, flak is really bad now huh?

[EGO_Aut]

There was a time when ARG Flak had detonation radius, but SPL none. ES had it on the list to patch this, but i am not sure if it is done by now

[Falcrack]

What is dead zone for Argon and Split flaks in reality of new physics? How did you evaluate this?

The new physics system has nothing to do with the turrets. The dead zone is always at maximum range, regardless of the target’s position, because that’s where the detonation occurs.

I pretty sure the flak explodes close to the predicted range of the target. So even if it misses a direct hit, it can still possibly do some proximity damage from the nearby explosion. I've seen flak do this quite a bit, where it is exploding even when it does not directly hit the target and has not yet reached the maximum range of the projectile.

[PV_]

The new physics system has nothing to do with the turrets.

It has. Being unable to hit anything and explode at close proximity of the target impacts turrets directly.

The dead zone is always at maximum range, regardless of the target’s position, because that’s where the detonation occurs.

Right. Though dead zone stands behind purpose -> capability of killing targets. If it doesn't match then "dead zone" not more than theory on paper. That is why I asked why do you think dead zone of ARG Flak better than dead zone of Split Flak considering all the troubles new physics brings.

[flywlyx]

I pretty sure the flak explodes close to the predicted range of the target. So even if it misses a direct hit, it can still possibly do some proximity damage from the nearby explosion. I've seen flak do this quite a bit, where it is exploding even when it does not directly hit the target and has not yet reached the maximum range of the projectile.

As far as I know, only one mod provides this function — it’s not available in the vanilla game. You can check it out here:
viewtopic.php?t=462319
This function is considered as a feature request.

It has. Being unable to hit anything and explode at close proximity of the target impacts turrets directly.

Right. Though dead zone stands behind purpose -> capability of killing targets. If it doesn't match then "dead zone" not more than theory on paper. That is why I asked why do you think dead zone of ARG Flak better than dead zone of Split Flak considering all the troubles new physics brings.

It’s the ships that have been affected, not the turrets. X4 turrets have never been great at hitting drifting targets, and the new flight mechanics cause most fighters to drift more than before. ARG flak performs better due to its faster projectile speed and longer range, which makes it easier to land hits — testing here confirms that as well:
https://www.reddit.com/r/X4Foundations/s/9Pr2yGvLJj

[Falcrack]

I pretty sure the flak explodes close to the predicted range of the target. So even if it misses a direct hit, it can still possibly do some proximity damage from the nearby explosion. I've seen flak do this quite a bit, where it is exploding even when it does not directly hit the target and has not yet reached the maximum range of the projectile.

As far as I know, only one mod provides this function — it’s not available in the vanilla game. You can check it out here:
viewtopic.php?t=462319
This function is considered as a feature request.

It has. Being unable to hit anything and explode at close proximity of the target impacts turrets directly.

Right. Though dead zone stands behind purpose -> capability of killing targets. If it doesn't match then "dead zone" not more than theory on paper. That is why I asked why do you think dead zone of ARG Flak better than dead zone of Split Flak considering all the troubles new physics brings.

It’s the ships that have been affected, not the turrets. X4 turrets have never been great at hitting drifting targets, and the new flight mechanics cause most fighters to drift more than before. ARG flak performs better due to its faster projectile speed and longer range, which makes it easier to land hits — testing here confirms that as well:
https://www.reddit.com/r/X4Foundations/s/9Pr2yGvLJj

Possibly it is a mod thing, as I see it all the time in VRO. Also seen some projectiles do it in SWI (main guns on the Firespray). So cool to watch flak explode around the target even if it misses. Why is this not a vanilla thing???

[LameFox]

Yeah vanilla flak does not proxy detonate as far as I can tell. It seems to have a larger than average projectile which I guess is meant to stand in for that effect (but makes it look pretty ugly at the same time IMO). However in actual use I don't find that is enough to help it much.

[flywlyx]

Possibly it is a mod thing, as I see it all the time in VRO. Also seen some projectiles do it in SWI (main guns on the Firespray). So cool to watch flak explode around the target even if it misses. Why is this not a vanilla thing???

Unlike contact-fuzed ammunition, proximity or timed fuzes are most effective when the explosion occurs in front of the target, which requires a much more complex system.
I’d rather see their limited resources go toward fixing the aiming issues first.
From a visual standpoint, having explosions occur ahead of the ship—like in real life—would add a lot of atmosphere, especially when piloting a fighter around capital ships. It would really enhance the experience, making it feel like you're flying through a storm of gunfire.
At the current stage, everything is happening behind the fighter, making it nearly invisible to the player.

Yeah vanilla flak does not proxy detonate as far as I can tell. It seems to have a larger than average projectile which I guess is meant to stand in for that effect (but makes it look pretty ugly at the same time IMO). However in actual use I don't find that is enough to help it much.

It would be useful if the aiming system worked properly and the aim point was adjusted ahead of the fighters. However, as it stands, most shots fall behind the target, making proximity fuzes largely ineffective in those situations.

[Falcrack]

Possibly it is a mod thing, as I see it all the time in VRO. Also seen some projectiles do it in SWI (main guns on the Firespray). So cool to watch flak explode around the target even if it misses. Why is this not a vanilla thing???

Unlike contact-fuzed ammunition, proximity or timed fuzes are most effective when the explosion occurs in front of the target, which requires a much more complex system.

This problem has already been solved by modders, particularly VRO, and that mod author (Shuulo) is an Egosoft employee. If you play VRO and watch where the flak is exploding, it does a very good job exploding close to the target, in many cases before the target. Which means sometimes it would have hit but explodes before it reaches the target.

I haven't been playing much vanilla recently, but I can tell you that in VRO, flak on my capital ships is deadly effective. It's part of the reason why I wish the vanilla game had more of the combat aspects of VRO, because vanilla combat is so lacking.

[flywlyx]

This problem has already been solved by modders, particularly VRO, and that mod author (Shuulo) is an Egosoft employee. If you play VRO and watch where the flak is exploding, it does a very good job exploding close to the target, in many cases before the target. Which means sometimes it would have hit but explodes before it reaches the target.

I haven't been playing much vanilla recently, but I can tell you that in VRO, flak on my capital ships is deadly effective. It's part of the reason why I wish the vanilla game had more of the combat aspects of VRO, because vanilla combat is so lacking.

As far as I know, VRO increases the velocity of most projectiles—for instance, flak travels at 8000 m/s compared to vanilla’s 1600 m/s—making them appear more "accurate." However, it doesn't improve the aiming algorithm, and I highly doubt Egosoft would raise bullet speeds. So referencing VRO here isn’t particularly relevant.

[Falcrack]

As far as I know, VRO increases the velocity of most projectiles—for instance, flak travels at 8000 m/s compared to vanilla’s 1600 m/s—making them appear more "accurate." However, it doesn't improve the aiming algorithm, and I highly doubt Egosoft would raise bullet speeds. So referencing VRO here isn’t particularly relevant.

I don't think the aiming algorithm is the problem so much so that as you said, vanilla projectile speeds are so low as to render them inaccurate because between the time they are fired and the time they reach the projected position, the target has had more time to maneuver or change speeds. I think vanilla projectile speeds being as low as they are (and short range as well) is a flawed design decision.

[flywlyx]

I don't think the aiming algorithm is the problem so much so that as you said, vanilla projectile speeds are so low as to render them inaccurate because between the time they are fired and the time they reach the projected position, the target has had more time to maneuver or change speeds. I think vanilla projectile speeds being as low as they are (and short range as well) is a flawed design decision.

Even beam weapons struggle to hit reliably, indicating that the aiming system has been flawed from the start. The reduced projectile speed is merely the final straw that exposes this issue.
Since Egosoft expects players to be able to solo capital ships using fighters, it's highly unlikely that projectile speed will be increased in the vanilla game. Moreover, even with improved algorithms, they still wouldn't perform well against player-controlled ships due to the more complex maneuvers players can execute. Therefore, improving the aiming algorithm is a far more reasonable direction.

[PV_]

It’s the ships that have been affected, not the turrets.

I'm aware of patch changes. Discussion is about turret effectiveness. And physics hits it hard.

https://www.reddit.com/r/X4Foundations/s/9Pr2yGvLJj

Interesting results in there. 1:30 min is too short in my opinion, still a great job done in testing. Though it lacks main component of the cocktail - capital ship. Problem is moving and rotating destroyer renders turrets drastically more inaccurate than with stationary ship or defense module. And destroyer always moves and rotates on attack run for S/M ships.

[flywlyx]

Interesting results in there. 1:30 min is too short in my opinion, still a great job done in testing. Though it lacks main component of the cocktail - capital ship. Problem is moving and rotating destroyer renders turrets drastically more inaccurate than with stationary ship or defense module. And destroyer always moves and rotates on attack run for S/M ships.

This still ties into the aiming algorithm issue, and I'm not certain whether the calculations account for the ship’s movement. It’s quite common to see plasma turrets firing shots that miss the target entirely during maneuvers.