I am starting to hate the new flight mechanics

[Scoob]

Thanks. I was looking at the numbers for ARG Mk2 stuff, let me check again, perhaps the numbers have been changed since I actually checked them. Yaw for the all-round Thruster was higher than that for the Combat on the ships I was installing them on.

[vvvvvvvv]

I sincerely appreciate all the detailed explanations. By devoting a significant amount of time to the game, I may get used to the new flight model (which IMO is mostly a drastic change in some parameters). But I do not plan to devote that time any time soon. I used to play X3 FL and I bought the game when I thought its development was mature enough (after 6.00). It took me some time to get used to it, to discover that it is possible to fight in travel mode, which weapons are suitable for that purpose (in addition to many other new game mechanics like boarding). I tried different ships until I found the ones that I liked the most. I even bought Timelines with the hope of getting some ship that beeter suited my preferences. I was not disappointed. But now that I am really enjoying the game as I never enjoyed any other X game before (perhaps with the exception of X3R with the Xtended mod), I am not going to ruin that joy with this update.

It is clear to me that this is a question of personal preferences, and I fully respect opinions in favor of 7.50. But for the time being, it is not for me.

I can only recommend to give the update another try, because for me it massively improved the game. Previously flight was more of a chore and was spending most of the time in one of the office chair, looking over the map. Ships were moving in rather rigid way, often flew in perfectly straight lines, and combat was predictable. Now, flying things myself is actually interesting and I spend a lot more time in pilot seat than before. That means it is an improvement. In my opinion, a big one.

[Scoob]

Oh, now that's a bit weird... I started a Fresh game, abandoning the one I started during v7.50 Beta 1. I'm in a Discoverer Vanguard with ARG Mk2 Combat Engines and Thrusters. I'm piloting, but I'm using Guidance and auto-pilot to navigate around (testing). I set a Guidance point in another sector and engaged AP. My ship had to do a 180 to head to the gate that was behind me. To do this, it rolled 90ish degrees left, then pitched up, before rolling back when it was facing the gate. My ships simply did not do this before, it'd just YAW its way when turning like this.

This is ONE ship of course, but I was still quite surprised seeing this behaviour. While playing during the beta, I was mostly personally flying a Moreya (S-Class Fighter) with the same ARG MK2 Combat Engines and Thrusters. It would YAW to turn under AP.

I think it's understandable that balance changed during the Beta. As I started fresh for Beta 1, I was doing less flying myself as new updates were made available, spending more time observing AI behaviours. Anyway, I'm just pottering in X4 currently, waiting for some Mods to be updated before starting a "proper" new game. Mods will change the balance further of course lol.

[christina jade]

yes hhhmmmm.. I just got the update , and eager to try the new flight mechs...
i started.( perhaps you could try this and offer advise,please)... I started a new game with the 'young gun start'... BUT...

I having flight control problems.. I using mouse + keyboard..

Using the mouse.. everytime I move left and /or right my ship 'banks/rolls' ?

Using the keyboard ,again everytime i move left or right (( keyboard stroke 'A' and 'D' my ship still moves inthe correct direction ,BUT, it 'banks/rolls'.
BUT<< THIS roll action shouldbe set to keyboard stroke 'Q' and 'E'.. The game 'seems' to be doing both actions (roll and turn.)on the same keyboard stroke...

Am I missing something in the settings ?

[Cpt.Badger]

New flight mechanics are great.
They add another layer of awesomeness to the game.

For me, space games are all about flying ships, preferably using a HOTAS setup.
I finally feel like I'm flying a ship - everything feels weighty now and much less "arcade'y".

[LameFox]

yes hhhmmmm.. I just got the update , and eager to try the new flight mechs...
i started.( perhaps you could try this and offer advise,please)... I started a new game with the 'young gun start'... BUT...

I having flight control problems.. I using mouse + keyboard..

Using the mouse.. everytime I move left and /or right my ship 'banks/rolls' ?

Using the keyboard ,again everytime i move left or right (( keyboard stroke 'A' and 'D' my ship still moves inthe correct direction ,BUT, it 'banks/rolls'.
BUT<< THIS roll action shouldbe set to keyboard stroke 'Q' and 'E'.. The game 'seems' to be doing both actions (roll and turn.)on the same keyboard stroke...

Am I missing something in the settings ?

Sounds like "adaptive steering" is on.

[jduato]

I sincerely appreciate all the detailed explanations. By devoting a significant amount of time to the game, I may get used to the new flight model (which IMO is mostly a drastic change in some parameters). But I do not plan to devote that time any time soon. I used to play X3 FL and I bought the game when I thought its development was mature enough (after 6.00). It took me some time to get used to it, to discover that it is possible to fight in travel mode, which weapons are suitable for that purpose (in addition to many other new game mechanics like boarding). I tried different ships until I found the ones that I liked the most. I even bought Timelines with the hope of getting some ship that beeter suited my preferences. I was not disappointed. But now that I am really enjoying the game as I never enjoyed any other X game before (perhaps with the exception of X3R with the Xtended mod), I am not going to ruin that joy with this update.

It is clear to me that this is a question of personal preferences, and I fully respect opinions in favor of 7.50. But for the time being, it is not for me.

I can only recommend to give the update another try, because for me it massively improved the game. Previously flight was more of a chore and was spending most of the time in one of the office chair, looking over the map. Ships were moving in rather rigid way, often flew in perfectly straight lines, and combat was predictable. Now, flying things myself is actually interesting and I spend a lot more time in pilot seat than before. That means it is an improvement. In my opinion, a big one.

For me, it has been a totally opposite experience. Up to Timelines, I only used a fighter to capture a corvette (Nemesis, until I could get a Kuraokami) as personal ship or a Cobra/Falx as the starting point for drive-by boarding of larger ships. (I almost always impose myself a constraint: cannot buy any ship, so that capturing/boarding is the only way).

Now (7.10), the Xperimental Shuttle is my personal ship in a custom budgeted start where all the major factions are enemies (-30). I am enjoying the game like I never did in the past. I already boarded 4 destroyers (Ody, Behemoth, Phoenix and Rattlesnake) and a Monitor with just the Shuttle and its two marines, and took over an entire Split fleet with just the Shuttle and a lot of combat strategy.

I tried to replicate just a small part of this fun with 7.50 and I could not. Hence my decision to go back to 7.10.

[vvvvvvvv]

I already boarded 4 destroyers (Ody, Behemoth, Phoenix and Rattlesnake) and a Monitor with just the Shuttle and its two marines,

I wouldn't find that enjoyable.

The reason why I praise 7.50 is because for me prior to 7.10 combat difficulty was very low, which turned battles into boring chore. In 7.5 I nee to use my brain to fly, which, for me, is a positive.

[LameFox]

I wouldn't say my ability to solo a fleet has gone down with the update. It maybe got a bit slower, due to manoeuvres being a longer process.

But... boarding capitals? You barely even have to move to do that. Why would it be harder now?

[jlehtone]

But... boarding capitals? You barely even have to move to do that. Why would it be harder now?

Indeed.

If one shoots the engines and turrets, then there is some moving around, but surely that hasn't changed by huge amount?

(I did board PAR Oddy. The moves were not noticeably harder, but this one refused to become completely scanned. Last time I had that was Asgards in 4.x, IIRC.)

[jduato]

I already boarded 4 destroyers (Ody, Behemoth, Phoenix and Rattlesnake) and a Monitor with just the Shuttle and its two marines,

I wouldn't find that enjoyable.

The reason why I praise 7.50 is because for me prior to 7.10 combat difficulty was very low, which turned battles into boring chore. In 7.5 I nee to use my brain to fly, which, for me, is a positive.

I definitely had to use the brain to fight a patrol with a dozen fighters, including several Chimeras, a couple of Dragon, a couple of Cobras, a Rattlesnake and a Monitor, releasing fighter drones and laser towers and spamming missiles at me while piloting just a heavy fighter. I fully respect other's preferences and opinions, and definitely agree with using the brain (not only while playing games ).

[jduato]

I wouldn't say my ability to solo a fleet has gone down with the update. It maybe got a bit slower, due to manoeuvres being a longer process.

But... boarding capitals? You barely even have to move to do that. Why would it be harder now?

Well, you have to approach the enemy capital (all the factions are enemies to me from the start) and, if there is no blind spot around the engines (like in the case for the Rattlesnake), destroy the turrets that may hit you, and then precisely reach the created blind spot (and the added inertia makes this operation more difficult in 7.50) before you start the slow process of making all the marines bail. Of course, you first need to kill/make bail everybody else in the enemy fleet. Otherwise, a static fighter is a ver yeasy target.

Not to forget that while you are making marines bail, you are frequently atacked by any enemies passing by. You have to defend yourself, and again precisely land close to the engines without being killed by the still active turrets.

[LameFox]

My experience with the older system was that by pulsing travel drive I didn't really have to be very strategic, because they just didn't have a response to that. I'd kite them out in a line, pulse-travel into them after a target, toggle TD, deal damage, and drift out the other side. If I was hit I just held boost until I was clear and pulsed travel drive around them while shields came back. Missiles didn't reach me, laser towers and capitals and other such things didn't matter because I could move the engagement at will. It was a superpower only I could use.

Frankly not all of that has even changed. They're still baitable, attack runs like that still work. They're a bit less lethal now because of lower time on target, and the need to recharge boost slower than shields. The approach is more reliant on having a fast ship than it used to be (I did this in a Pulsar before because why not, more guns).

Well, you have to approach the enemy capital (all the factions are enemies to me from the start) and, if there is no blind spot around the engines (like in the case for the Rattlesnake), destroy the turrets that may hit you, and then precisely reach the created blind spot (and the added inertia makes this operation more difficult in 7.50) before you start the slow process of making all the marines bail. Of course, you first need to kill/make bail everybody else in the enemy fleet. Otherwise, a static fighter is a ver yeasy target.

Not to forget that while you are making marines bail, you are frequently atacked by any enemies passing by. You have to defend yourself, and again precisely land close to the engines without being killed by the still active turrets.

I'm fairly certain Rattlesnakes do have a blind spot behind them as I've never had that problem while boarding them before. At least in an S ship. M can be harder to squeeze in sometimes, but on the flip side, can ignore a bit more damage from things like engine wash and turrets. Boarding any ship for me is basically fly up behind it, kill engines quickly, creep around killing turrets either from angles they can't return fire or by popping up and firing while they turn around to face me. Then kill all M shields. At that point I'd usually bring in something else to deal damage so it's less tedious, but if you have shield pen weapons that also works (and I guess a Rattlesnake's shields suck anyway). Any time some element comes back during boarding I quickly squash it. If I have to fight something, what repairs is nearly always just like one engine (I feel like it prioritises those), but even if it's a turret, it won't have any shields so it won't last long.

[flywlyx]

Well, you have to approach the enemy capital (all the factions are enemies to me from the start) and, if there is no blind spot around the engines (like in the case for the Rattlesnake), destroy the turrets that may hit you, and then precisely reach the created blind spot (and the added inertia makes this operation more difficult in 7.50) before you start the slow process of making all the marines bail. Of course, you first need to kill/make bail everybody else in the enemy fleet. Otherwise, a static fighter is a ver yeasy target.

Not to forget that while you are making marines bail, you are frequently atacked by any enemies passing by. You have to defend yourself, and again precisely land close to the engines without being killed by the still active turrets.

You don't need a blind spot anymore—just drift. If the enemies can't hit you, a blind spot becomes irrelevant.

[LameFox]

Still, I am pretty sure all the normal ships are designed with one. Maybe not weird things like Kha'ak who cannot be disabled properly anyway.

From memory I think with a Rattlesnake the rear sides were pretty safe because it's like a big 3D diamond so the front turrets can't shoot back and the rear turrets are above and below. And maybe those fins helped? It's been a while since I last capped one, usually the Split in my games are barely holding on without me making things worse.

[HeinzS]

You don't need a blind spot anymore—just drift. If the enemies can't hit you, a blind spot becomes irrelevant.

Even 40 years ago, Flak turrets could calculate the correct lead in relation to the enemy's ship movements, but Egosoft is probably not aware of this.

[flywlyx]

Even 40 years ago, Flak turrets could calculate the correct lead in relation to the enemy's ship movements, but Egosoft is probably not aware of this.

Aiming in X4 seems surprisingly difficult—I have no idea why even beam turrets struggle to track slow-moving targets. It should be as straightforward as P + Vt + (at/2). It doesn’t even require prediction, just aim at the next frame's location.

[Bozz11]

I just want to expree that I'm not happy that after 7 years you decide to change the flight model to something I don't like at all.
I have played the game for 7 years, 4.000+ hours played, It's my favorite game from all times.

I have played 30 hours so far since the update was released and I just can't get over the flight model update, the more I play the more I miss the old flight model.
S ships is not too terrible specially with some engines that are closer to the old flight model but even though it feels painful to me.
L/XL ships is a lot worser, the handling is no fun for me, I 100 times prefer the older model.

The new flight model is not more realistic in my opinion, I don't feel any weight, I just feel like ships are drifting on ice.
The game series has never had realistic flight model and I feel like changing this should have done in the next game not on this one and specially not after 7 years.

Before I was always flying around and doing stuff and now I find myself playing through the map most of the time or watching my ships do stuff while I stay on deck just so I don't have to use this new flight model...

This is a very fundamental change that should have been done for the next game, it's very personnal specially doing this to a 7 years old game.

I will keep on playing a little bit to see if I can get used to it but I think I will revert to version 7.10.

[deadmoomin]

L/XL ships is a lot worser, the handling is no fun for me, I 100 times prefer the older model.

Isn't that the way it should be? Maybe get a smaller more manurable ship if you want nice handling when flying? X/XL should feel like flying a truck, right? not very nice experience unless you appreciate the feeling of flying a truck, that is (Truck Simulator fans here!?)

I haven't played the update yet, but the absolute worst thing about X4 for me since release has bee n the "generic" feeling of each ship. I really hope that has changed.

[flywlyx]

Isn't that the way it should be? Maybe get a smaller more manurable ship if you want nice handling when flying? X/XL should feel like flying a truck, right? not very nice experience unless you appreciate the feeling of flying a truck, that is (Truck Simulator fans here!?)

It's different—the current system is difficult to understand unless you dig through all the numbers in the game files. There's no clear logic behind it; it's just the way the developers decided.
The previous system was easy to learn and use, whereas the current one is nearly impossible to grasp without reading the source code and is much harder to use.
On the other hand, the AI doesn’t know how to use its ships properly, making combat much easier now.