I am starting to hate the new flight mechanics

[jduato]

Many thanks to everybody for the many positive suggestions. I am going to try again with an S fighter and multiple strategies (as recommended). Hope to find a way to make combat fun again.

[Nimrod989]

I personally really like the new flight model, combat feels much more engaging. I'm sure you'll get used to the new model and like it in time.

[Scoob]

I quite like it. In some ships it's not that different to what we had before. With others, ships do feel a bit more ponderous as their mass suggests they should. There are still outliers though that are more than a little crazy. The Moreya (S-Class Fighter) even with just Mk2 ARG Combat Engines and Thrusters is CRAZY to fly, super boosty, super slippery but then, occasionally, turns like it's in treacle. It's an extreme example though. Most L-Class ships feel good, most M-Class ships feel good. With mid-range (Mk2) Engines and Thrusters, some of the "Super Heavy Fighter" type Corvettes - like the Nemesis - feel a bit ponderous though.

I'm a big fan of the separate boost energy pool. However, boosting is a bit odd. If you boost above a ship's regular speed the ship can become TERRIBLE at turning while slowing from that speed with FA On. Why the gamified "drag" of space also drags on turning is a bit weird. FA Off helps, to a degree, but being largely unable to turn after you've boosted until the ship slows again isn't very nice. On some ships with some loadouts it's hardly noticeable. On others it makes them a no-go for piloting by the player.

For me, the Boost then quickly turn manoeuvre is key to surviving when overwhelmed by enemies. This "slowing down while going above the base max speed" turning drag isn't very nice at times. I had it last night, flying in a captured Minotaur Raider, not the toughest ship but a larger target when engaged by multiple fighters. I boost away and try to turn around, but it cannot really be done well with FA On. I need to experiment some more. I don't generally spend much time flying myself - did more of it during the Beta - but some ships aren't that great to fly yourself.

[jduato]

Thanks for the comments.

I have been looking at some stats and also testing combat with the same ships I recently used in 7.10, so that reactions are still fresh in my mind.

First thing I realised is that the new flight model is not the only thing to blame. There has been some dramatic nerfing in some of the equipment. Yesterday I mentioned the move from 2 sec to 18 sec in the Odachi to reach top speed when in travel mode. Today I realised that the main distinguishing feature of combat engines for small ships is gone. I am talking about travel attack time (the time needed to enter travel mode). It was zero for all the combat engines for S/M ships, and for me, it was the main reason to use combat engines instead of all-round or travel engines. But I checked the stats for the ARG S combat engine Mk3 and travel attack time was 6 sec. I could not believe it. Fortunately, it was only 1 sec for the Xperimental Shuttle (it is no longer zero, but not too bad), so I decided to give a try.

I went to the gate connecting to a Xenon sector in Hatikva. Both Hatikva and Argon are set as enemies (-30). I found two PEs close to stations, a good opportunity to raise notoriety with the owner factions. I engaged travel mode but, when approaching the first PE, breaking distance was much longer than in 7.50. The result is that I missed the opportunity. Then I went to the gate and started to fight against a lot of Ms and station defense drones. There were a couple of frigates but I did not engage them.

The net results is that I did not enjoyed combat in 7.50 as much as I did in 7.10. Indeed, I kept shields at higher levels than I used to in 7.10. Having a separate boost tank helps a lot. I could easily survive but this is not the point. By the time I reached close enough to hit an enemy, the enemy had turned around and was accelerating in the opposite direction. I spent a lot of time boosting to get in position to hit some enemy. Also, I had to combine boosting with travel mode to avoid running out of boost.

In summary, I found combat much less dynamic in 7.50

[vvvvvvvv]

It takes 9 times longer to accelerate to travel speed in 7.50

You can boost while travel mode countdown is ticking.

Maybe I am wrong, but I don't think so.

You can boost while travel mode countdown is ticking. Once it is done ticking, you can no longer boost. You can also first boost then hit travel mode if you have "quick spoolup" engine. After the flight model change, many engines now have countdown, even if they did not have it before. Boosting to reach desired speed first now is a valid tactic.

Before the change travel mode was often used instead of boost. I.e. dodge fire for a few seconds, hit travelmode and run away. Now, as far as I can tell you're "expected" to use boost for the same purpose. Likewise, if you need to QUICKLY gain speed, you're "expected" to use boost. That's the change. I.e. travel mode can MAINTAIN high velocity and boost can quickly reach it.

I'm running a new save right now, where I decided to have some challenge and started with zero money in Lux with Mk1 equipment. Travel mode has countdown and takes more time to accelerate than boost. That's why you use both. Hit travel mode, boost. By the time it is done ticking, the ship is flying at 2/3 of maximum travel speed. New flight model simply needs slightly different tactics. At least that was my experience.

[flywlyx]

To me, the biggest issue with the new flight model is its unpredictability.

Before 7.5, the system felt more like atmospheric flight—everything moved in a straightforward and intuitive manner. In 7.5, they attempted to introduce a semi-Newtonian flight model to replicate a more realistic spaceflight experience. Technically, in space, engines should provide consistent thrust at all times, with no friction, meaning ships should accelerate smoothly in all directions when flight assist is off.

However, in X4, the way these parameters interact isn't clear. It seems like there's a combination of thrust and friction curves working simultaneously, leading to an inconsistent flight experience. For now, I'm sticking to ships with very low friction, like the Yasur, to avoid this awkward feeling.

[solardawning]

The biggest problem I'm having is that small, precise movements are difficult.
Try docking without a docking computer and you'll see- the slight adjustments and quick stop you need to do are exceedingly hard now. Turning on the throttle slightly and then trying to brake quickly will have you slide further than previously.
I think the culprit here is basically a curve on acceleration- the slower you're moving, the slower your braking is in real terms.

Essentially, the flight model makes precise, manual control at low speeds harder than it used to be.

[jduato]

You can boost while travel mode countdown is ticking.

Maybe I am wrong, but I don't think so.

You can boost while travel mode countdown is ticking. Once it is done ticking, you can no longer boost. You can also first boost then hit travel mode if you have "quick spoolup" engine. After the flight model change, many engines now have countdown, even if they did not have it before. Boosting to reach desired speed first now is a valid tactic.

Before the change travel mode was often used instead of boost. I.e. dodge fire for a few seconds, hit travelmode and run away. Now, as far as I can tell you're "expected" to use boost for the same purpose. Likewise, if you need to QUICKLY gain speed, you're "expected" to use boost. That's the change. I.e. travel mode can MAINTAIN high velocity and boost can quickly reach it.

I'm running a new save right now, where I decided to have some challenge and started with zero money in Lux with Mk1 equipment. Travel mode has countdown and takes more time to accelerate than boost. That's why you use both. Hit travel mode, boost. By the time it is done ticking, the ship is flying at 2/3 of maximum travel speed. New flight model simply needs slightly different tactics. At least that was my experience.

Thanks for the advice. By the time I read this post, I already had tried it and yes, it works as you described.

The non-zero attack time for S/M combat engines can be justified as a way to force pilots to use boost, now that it no longer consumes shields.

But what ruins the game for me is the feeling of skating on ice. I hated those races in Timelines where inertia was so high. Now, that same wierd experience dominates combat situations. After trying for a few hours, I went back to 7.10, and now I am enjoying the game again

[TroubledRabbit]

there is some weird stuff going (like Shih now turning like whale with the best engines&trusters, a lot of ships feels pretty slugish, other goes completely crazy etc.), the new model and its peculiarites needs review (here we are) and will be probably/maybe addressed somewhat with time.

Accidentaly design decision of 'space drag' became strongly enchanced in this update, if the old drag was like flying in slightly sticky fluid (imagine whatever you want), now - this is especially emphasised in case of small ships - it's like flying in pudding.

Now - I would suggest redoing 'basic flight' and 'advanced flight' tutorials or just using cheats and spawn some ships for training.

// and guys (speaking in orange), YOU DON'T WANT 'FULL NEWTONIAN'. Without 2 sticks and few weeks of Basic, you will go nuts needing to manage 12 force vectors on average with variable object's inertia (ship's variable mass+local bodies influence).

[A5PECT]

The idea of "best engines" is anthetical to the purpose of the flight model changes. So expecting to find that will only end in disappointment.

If you want your ships to be more responsive, find out which combinations of hull and engine excel at that and then use them.

[flywlyx]

// and guys (speaking in orange), YOU DON'T WANT 'FULL NEWTONIAN'. Without 2 sticks and few weeks of Basic, you will go nuts needing to manage 12 force vectors on average with variable object's inertia (ship's variable mass+local bodies influence).

They're not going to implement an orbital mechanism here, so full Newtonian physics are completely off the table.
They just need better expectation management or at least a clear explanation of what players should expect from the resistance and thrust curves. Each direction seems to behave differently, making it difficult to grasp, especially when there's no speed indicator while reversing.

[vvvvvvvv]

But what ruins the game for me is the feeling of skating on ice. I hated those races in Timelines where inertia was so high. Now, that same wierd experience dominates combat situations. After trying for a few hours, I went back to 7.10, and now I am enjoying the game again

7.5 update added velocity indicator. Blue semi-circle which points exactly where you're flying. That indicator makes it very easy to fly without flight assist (including spacesuit trips), and also plan tight turns in inertial ships. Basically you'll know ahead of time that you're gonna overshoot, or if you'll hit a center of the gate. I think now those races would be a breeze thanks to it. Basically , the indicator poitns where you're going relative to your head. Adjust velocity so it point where you want to go and you're set.

Personally I like "skating" feeling because that gives feeling that this is space and not atmospheric dogfight. You can also now effectively circle-strafe around target, using inertia. All the changes together encourage use of boost and toggling off flight assist for maneuvers. Inertial movement allows you effectively circle-strafe, and overall movement feels significantly less rigid. My favorite thing right now is that pilots apparently can now do slight turns while in travel mode without dropping of travel mode first. Overall flying - for me - is much more fun, and I actually fly ships instead of starting at the map all the time.

The indicator is something that would've worked amazing in VR or with multi-monitor cockpit. Sadly, neither is supported although I heard there's eye-tracker support in the game.

[grapedog]

I will say this about the flight model update.... it now makes MK2 Docking computers RIDICULOUSLY useful....

I was just doing a timelines mission to gather ice.... and I can gather ice and be back on the ship in like 40 seconds.... and then it takes 60 f'ing seconds to line the ship up on the landing pad. With how quickly it goes from full forward to full reverse, without using boost.... while still somehow turning like a whale, it can jet forward like a cheetah chasing its prey.... it's dumb.

[jduato]

But what ruins the game for me is the feeling of skating on ice. I hated those races in Timelines where inertia was so high. Now, that same wierd experience dominates combat situations. After trying for a few hours, I went back to 7.10, and now I am enjoying the game again

7.5 update added velocity indicator. Blue semi-circle which points exactly where you're flying. That indicator makes it very easy to fly without flight assist (including spacesuit trips), and also plan tight turns in inertial ships. Basically you'll know ahead of time that you're gonna overshoot, or if you'll hit a center of the gate. I think now those races would be a breeze thanks to it. Basically , the indicator poitns where you're going relative to your head. Adjust velocity so it point where you want to go and you're set.

Personally I like "skating" feeling because that gives feeling that this is space and not atmospheric dogfight. You can also now effectively circle-strafe around target, using inertia. All the changes together encourage use of boost and toggling off flight assist for maneuvers. Inertial movement allows you effectively circle-strafe, and overall movement feels significantly less rigid. My favorite thing right now is that pilots apparently can now do slight turns while in travel mode without dropping of travel mode first. Overall flying - for me - is much more fun, and I actually fly ships instead of starting at the map all the time.

The indicator is something that would've worked amazing in VR or with multi-monitor cockpit. Sadly, neither is supported although I heard there's eye-tracker support in the game.

I sincerely appreciate all the detailed explanations. By devoting a significant amount of time to the game, I may get used to the new flight model (which IMO is mostly a drastic change in some parameters). But I do not plan to devote that time any time soon. I used to play X3 FL and I bought the game when I thought its development was mature enough (after 6.00). It took me some time to get used to it, to discover that it is possible to fight in travel mode, which weapons are suitable for that purpose (in addition to many other new game mechanics like boarding). I tried different ships until I found the ones that I liked the most. I even bought Timelines with the hope of getting some ship that beeter suited my preferences. I was not disappointed. But now that I am really enjoying the game as I never enjoyed any other X game before (perhaps with the exception of X3R with the Xtended mod), I am not going to ruin that joy with this update.

It is clear to me that this is a question of personal preferences, and I fully respect opinions in favor of 7.50. But for the time being, it is not for me.

[Rockseer]

For me the new flight mechanics are a very big NO GO!
The fights in X4 aren't good for newton motion, it's more suited to the way it way before.
Just pluggin a new flight mechanic on it just destroys the fun of fighting.
8 Seconds to charge travel drive on an M-CLass ship is a joke!
Xenon especially PE of course don't have that issue, they can just boost away, travel away, still turn on a cent...that whole thing is messed up!
4 PE bringing the the shields of a Phoenix with shield charge mods down in about 2 Minutes now off sector! Without the Phoenix being able to hit anything with their M-ARG Flak now whtf happened?
Also when controling a destoyer to turn and keep xenon M, PE whatever in view is just a pain, the destroyer turns until it just stops turning and keeps rolling without following the flight path of the enemy. What is worng there, this motion makes me actually becomming sick..i never ever percieved motion sickness unless using a VR-goggle for more then an hour. But on a screen??
THis whole new flight mechanic is a big mess, never ever felt so disappointed by an update.

[vkolosov]

Did not like the new flight model not one bit.

My modded Moreya used to fly at 14 km/s with insane acceleration to this speed thanks to Terran engines. Was my favorite go to taxi for everything.

Now it’s only 12 km/s, and the acceleration is much slower. Actually, all ships became slower. I fly Yasur as the personal ship at the moment, but I don’t like it. For some reason it was not nerfed like Moreya, but overall this ship feels like cheating. So I’ll go back to my Moreya, but it’s not as fast as it was when I fell in love with it.

I understand there is a giant PDF with math equations that explain how awesome this model is, but in practIce fun is not always measured by formulas.

[Scoob]

The balance between regular Thrusters and Combat Thrusters seems to have changed during the beta. Initially it seemed that regular thrusters wouldn't turn a ship (facing vector change) as quickly, but there would be less drift - decent strafe thrust, allowing a ship to hold the line of the curve, more on rails if you will. Combat Thrusters however seemed to allow more drift, but the ship would face the new vector more quickly. Perhaps I was just observing too limited a number of ships at the time to come to that conclusion.

Now we're back at the Combat Thrusters have better pitch but weaker yaw, like before. I'd hoped there would be a bit more nuance to it. The balance currently isn't ideal. I've flown combat ships with combat thrusters that turn terrible, and jumped into Civilian ships with regular Thrusters that'll run circles around them. It's an odd balance at times, some ships feel perfect, others not so much. I tend to fit Mk2 Combat Thrusters and Engines on any Military ship, and Mk1 Regular Thrusters with Mk2 Travel Engines to Civilians.

Btw: true of the old flight model too, but do you SEE Combat Thruster equipped ships (particularly Fighters) doing the appropriate roll then pitch manoeuvre to face a target? I've been watching mine YAW to change vector, they simply don't roll and pitch, even though they have the Pitch-biased Combat Thrusters fitted. Seeing this, I changed to use Regular Thrusters as the yaw is better, but the AI seemed to perform worse, which was a bit weird. It looks like the AI cannot use Combat Thrusters properly, else ships would roll then pitch to engage, rather than yaw.

Combat Thrusters should allow a ship to rotate - on any axis - better, it's all about getting GUNS on target or quickly selecting a new vector and BOOSTING away. If a ship drifts more as a result, that's fine as it doesn't impact aiming at all. Civilian Thrusters however are more about control and being a bit more precise - easier to get that heavy, fully-loaded Transporter down on the pad neatly for example without a DC. That's my take, and where things seemed to be going early in the Beta, based on the limited ships and load outs I played around with.

I need to experiment with more ships personally, but how *I* fly a ship, taking advantage of better pitch vs. yaw etc, ISN'T how the AI flies that same ship. It's weird, even though the ship CAN yaw better with regular Thrusters, and the AI DOESN'T use a roll and pitch manoeuvre with combat thrusters, fitting a ship with regular thrusters DOESN'T see the AI utilise them properly. The ships HAS better yaw, the ship is yawing rather than roll & pitch, but it still seems worse somehow. In player hands, the distinction is clear, under AI control, things don't really change much.

[LameFox]

Initially it seemed that regular thrusters wouldn't turn a ship (facing vector change) as quickly, but there would be less drift - decent strafe thrust, allowing a ship to hold the line of the curve, more on rails if you will. Combat Thrusters however seemed to allow more drift, but the ship would face the new vector more quickly.

Still looks that way to me. Combat has better yaw/pitch/roll, all-round has better strafe speed/accel.

[Scoob]

Still looks that way to me. Combat has better yaw/pitch/roll, all-round has better strafe speed/accel.

It does vary a lot between ships how that translates to actual flight though. Also, yaw is showing as better for regular vs. combat (I'm using ARG stuff) for me, same as it did prior to 7.5. Plus I'm not seeing ships with combat thrusters take advantage of roll and pitch as they should. I.e. they're leaving capabilities on the table so to speak. Combat thrusters allow for very aggressive roll and pitch when I'm flying - reminds me of Elite Dangerous in that regard - but the AI doesn't roll and pitch.

[LameFox]

I was looking at a Kyd before. At the Argon wharf I see this for a discoverer:

Combat Mk3:
Strafe: 95
Accel: 67.3
Yaw: 67.2
Pitch: 67.2
Roll: 84.1

All-round Mk3:
Strafe: 108
Accel: 76.6
Yaw: 59
Pitch: 59
Roll: 73.7


For a Nova:

Combat Mk3:
Strafe: 118.7
Accel: 79.1
Yaw: 84.6
Pitch: 99.1
Roll: 109.6

All-round Mk3:
Strafe: 135
Accel: 90
Yaw: 74.2
Pitch: 86.9
Roll: 96.1