Reinforcing almost destroyed factions.

[S!rAssassin]

What if any factions, who lost all of their sectors, but one, will receive few waves of fleets, spawned for free behind last sector border and came to reinforce almost dead faction?

Reinforcing may continue arrive still at least one faction's station is alive. Xenon may receive reinforcements too. Reinforcements may contain not only military ships, but trade and mining ships too.

IMO, complete wiping of any faction shouldn't be so easy.

[Raptor34]

No. But imo factions should have a reserve fleet which already exists but remains inactive or something. Basically doesn't contribute to simulation overhead, but can be turned on when necessary, this should be for like homeworld defense.

[S!rAssassin]

But imo factions should have a reserve fleet which already exists but remains inactive or something.

Factions already have infinite money - some free spawned ships aren't something special at end of life... But simple to do by devs. Just consider it as reserve fleet from planet.

[Scoob]

I think, in situations like this, a Faction needs to lean on its allies and use its infinite funds to BUY a fleet or two. I don't think "hidden" - aka fleets that magically spawn in - are the way to go. Perhaps a Fleet held in reserve several hundred km for the centre of the sector might work, alongside "backup" Warehouses full of resources, or mothballed ship production facilities, that sort of thing - a true contingency plan if a Faction's home sector falls, that sort of thing.

In my current - albeit modded - game, HOP are gone, PAR are gone, TEL are gone and ARG are seriously on the ropes, having lost all ship production. ANT are not in a position to help as, while they have ship building facilities, they are cut off from any ware deliveries, so can build nothing. I'm supporting ARG's ship needs in their entirety currently. However, I fear the AI does not make good use of the ships they buy. It tends to send them out piecemeal for the most part, rather than building up a large fleet to push back.

So, call me a war profiteer if you will - I am after all lol - but ARG are currently just throwing money at the problem, buying from me. I think that's a GOOD way for things to work, it's just a shame it's not creating sufficiently powerful fleets to push back the Xenon, preferring to send out smaller groups which don't last too long.

The GOOD thing about X4 is, while Faction wealth is infinite, they're still tied to the game economy, production and supply of resources and ships that actually get build. I love this. However, when stuff goes wrong a Faction can be in real trouble. I have seen Factions ordering ships from allies, with ARG ships being built at an ANT Wharf, so there is cooperation already in the game. This is the only way I can see things going.

Perhaps there could be a fall-back of ordering from the Teladi, they'll accept anyone's credits after all, if all else fails. If TEL fall though... I don't know.

[jlehtone]

IMO, complete wiping of any faction shouldn't be so easy.

Have you counted the threads from people, who have "completely wiped" VIG? Regardless of whether it was easy or not, they find it annoying that VIG stations (apparently) respawn even after that (endlessly). They really seem to dislike "out of thin void" spawns.


A core idea in X4, the "economy", is that player is able to defeat Xenon I without a "fight", by preventing the Xenon from building the behemoth in the first place. Previous games did not offer that possibility. The downside of this "freedom" is that player (and even the NPC factions) can starve their enemies beyond recovery.

[S!rAssassin]

Have you counted the threads from people, who have "completely wiped" VIG?

Yep, but it's looks like a bug. Any faction should be wipeable. Permanently. But definitely not by single Asgard.

[Baconnaise]

definitely not by single Asgard.

Terrans have always been the ultimate faction. Barring certain paranid mentions and the ancients they are the pinnacle spacefaring species/faction. Asgard fits that like a glove, especially after the gate shutdown such as the Torus and other terrorist-related attacks in X3. Why wouldn't they be? They created gates and created the Xenon. Seems logical and plausible.

EDIT: forgot to mention jumpdrives which have been retconned AFAIK. I also neglected a single taranis ship in Rebirth at least was a power to be reckoned with and it wasn't the big boy.

[Falcrack]

I am against the spawning of ships to revive almost dead factions. If I want a faction dead, I want it dead. If I want to revive it, I can build a shipyard and sell them ship and fight against their enemies. I want no free spawning of ships for factions.

[S!rAssassin]

If I want a faction dead, I want it dead.

If you want a faction dead, you can defeat some more spawned ships... Like final boss. But, if you don't like a faction dead without you, you should be glad to see some reinforcements.

If I want to revive it, I can build a shipyard and sell them ship and fight against their enemies.

Go, build shipyard for the Biggest Universe Threat - Xenons...

[Falcrack]

If I want a faction dead, I want it dead.

If you want a faction dead, you can defeat some more spawned ships... Like final boss. But, if you don't like a faction dead without you, you should be glad to see some reinforcements.

If I want to revive it, I can build a shipyard and sell them ship and fight against their enemies.

Go, build shipyard for the Biggest Universe Threat - Xenons...

Xenon won't be destroyed in the game unless the player does it.

[jlehtone]

True. One cannot sell to everyone. Even regular factions, if you massacre them and reach -30 with them, then how many ships they would be willing to buy from you?

I think, in situations like this, a Faction needs to lean on its allies and use its infinite funds to BUY a fleet or two.

Do allies have blueprints that the faction is willing to buy / wants for its jobs?

If I want a faction dead, I want it dead.

If you want a faction dead, you can defeat some more spawned ships... Like final boss.

But do they have to be spawned, rather than built?

How would you know when is the last spawn? How does a reset work? Surely, if the faction is revived, the "last ditch" spawn system must reset, so you could massacre all but last wave, let reset, and massacre next batch of waves ...

What "jobs" will the fleets do? If "defend home", then why not have those fleets already?

[jlehtone]

Xenon won't be destroyed in the game unless the player does it.

How do you know that?

[S!rAssassin]

Agreed, all factions should have powerful defences in own sectors, at least core sectors. But I don't see problems with some additional spawned ships. Final boss, as I said.

[EGO_Aut]

Maybe it would help, if factions have a neutral or core sector where other factions do not try to intervention. But what to do with the player

[Raptor34]

You can't control the player, and it's a fool's errand to do so. If the player wants to break the game, let them.

[stooper88]

As much as I wouldn't mind having safeguards to prevent total extinction of any faction ( an issue I was having in my own game), all of this discussion reminds me the problems of arbitrary controls from my college economics and computer science courses. I think one aspect of the X series which has stood it apart from other games of the genre is its adherence to each game's internal economic model. As others have commented, the player has almost limitless freedom to leverage the economy to impact the universe, for better or worse. The game doesn't interfere when thing go awry or "out of balance" and it's up to the player to be the external force to guide the course of their universe.

In economics, arbitrary controls are always frowned on as they can have inadvertent consequences, even when well intentioned. The classic examples are shortages and surpluses as it's never perfectly foreseeable "how much" or "how long" some external control should be imposed. Xenon are being wiped out and need reinforcements? How many ships and for how long? Too low and the effort fizzles out failing to achieve the desired effect. Too high and the Xenon (or any other faction) become unstoppable juggernauts. The "just right" answer is always the elusive Goldilocks balance which nobody can ever predict. Hence, economists will generally argue that the "market should do as it will" without intervention. To be clear, I'm not a rabid anti-government Libertarian or Anarchist. There will always be some levels of control that are needed. But in this case, it's not clear what can or should be done to be effective without causing negative consequences.

And the same principle arises in computer science, where "side effects" are a constant result of developer band aid solutions. It's often tempting to code some arbitrary ceiling or floor into a process to try to sustain some type of system behavior or performance. But these approaches inevitably fail when the system scales up or down in a manner that the original limits weren't designed to handle. There's almost never a "one size fits all" solution that can handle every potential circumstance.

And so, much as I would like not having to worry about factions disappearing, I can see how Egosoft would be more inclined to just let the game run its course in accordance with its universal mechanics.