I posted this on the X4 Steam forums but thought I'd hassle you guys directly (I've started playing in pancake mode), as the game is awesome but it would be Awesome X 4 (see what I did there) if you'd release a VR DLC...
I'd be happy with a Mouselook version of VR and just release the update with no fan fare (maybe pretend it's a fan made mod), with no guarantee's it'll work ok. Just make it like X Rebirth so when you remove the hmd you continue on the monitor - so no sicky on stations etc.
I know they <Egosoft> got their fingers burnt with the XRebirth VR but they spent hods of money on a game that was panned on release, stripped out tons of the gameworld and the campaign and charged it as a brand new game...
A 2013 game that was gutted then rereleased in 2017!!! (I still love it but it's started crashing every 15 mins once I reached maelstrom in the modded back in main campaign and I've kind'a given up on it).
mr.WHO wrote: ↑Wed, 24. Jun 20, 14:02
Egosoft stated they won't do X4 VR, because XR VR was financial failure.
It must take several years and several more games like Half-Life Alyx, before VR market become big enough to be financially viable.
Hello Games is making everyone else look bad then since they added VR to No Man's Sky in their regular updates. Then a few months later had an update just to add an in-game music synthesizer...
Hello Games earned many million $, even before they fixed the No Man Scam.
Egosoft is much smaller and modest company - they don't have luxyry of taking a risk with VR, especially that they already consider XR VR a financial failure.
The only condition that could make Egosoft to reconsider is singnificant boost of VR market base (e.g. more games and lower equipment costs) - thus it isn't hard to imagine X4 VR won't be possible until several years in future.
mr.WHO wrote: ↑Wed, 24. Jun 20, 14:53
Hello Games earned many million $, even before they fixed the No Man Scam.
Egosoft is much smaller and modest company - they don't have luxyry of taking a risk with VR, especially that they already consider XR VR a financial failure.
The only condition that could make Egosoft to reconsider is singnificant boost of VR market base (e.g. more games and lower equipment costs) - thus it isn't hard to imagine X4 VR won't be possible until several years in future.
Well there's a significant market base for multiplayer, yet Egosoft still prefers keeping their game single player in 2020 for some reason. I don't see the financial incentive as a valid excuse for that reason.
If they're trying to appeal to a niche demographic, i.e. people that like playing single player sandboxes, they should have no problem doubling down with niche features like VR. The real reason No Man's Sky was considered a "scam" upon release was because it was marketed like a mainstream game with multiplayer, but was delivered as niche single player sandbox game.
There is significant market base for multiplayer, but there is much greater competition there - not to mention you not only compete with "space games", but also other MP games like entire Battle Royale scene.
The MP cake is already cut and eaten - now MP games start to devour eachother (e.g. Anthem, Bettlefield).
Technically, making Multi-Player game of X4 is is a task several times more complicated than making X4 + X4 VR. Probably this is even impossible as in order for MP to run they would probably have to rewrite 90% of the game code - they stated this during one of development livestreams - this also include something smaller, like co-op gameplay.
People who ask for X4 multiplayer have compeltely no idea about game development and how Multiplayer games run.
Egosoft know what they are doing, staying away from Multi Player.
They coudl take a risk with completely new, MP oriented game, but then most of their player base would complain this is shallow version of X4 (and you can't have normal X4 due to engine limitation for Multi-Player).
They could attract new players, but there is already competition from NMS, ED, SC, EVE and many more, which have more MP experienced, MP oriented teams.
Meanwhile - deep gameplay, single player niche of X-series is stable and safe.
mr.WHO wrote: ↑Wed, 24. Jun 20, 15:33
There is significant market base for multiplayer, but there is much greater competition there - not to mention you not only compete with "space games", but also other MP games like entire Battle Royale scene.
The MP cake is already cut and eaten - now MP games start to devour eachother (e.g. Anthem, Bettlefield).
Technically, making Multi-Player game of X4 is is a task several times more complicated than making X4 + X4 VR. Probably this is even impossible as in order for MP to run they would probably have to rewrite 90% of the game code - they stated this during one of development livestreams - this also include something smaller, like co-op gameplay.
People who ask for X4 multiplayer have compeltely no idea about game development and how Multiplayer games run.
Egosoft know what they are doing, staying away from Multi Player.
They coudl take a risk with completely new, MP oriented game, but then most of their player base would complain this is shallow version of X4 (and you can't have normal X4 due to engine limitation for Multi-Player).
They could attract new players, but there is already competition from NMS, ED, SC, EVE and many more, which have more MP experienced, MP oriented teams.
Meanwhile - deep gameplay, single player niche of X-series is stable and safe.
So you're saying adding VR to the game would be relatively easy compared to multiplayer, also the market is underdeveloped so there's relatively little or no competition compared to multiplayer? I mean, other than NMS and E:D that offer VR for free...
We've been over this many times before, but I will re-iterate it yet again. The issue with VR (and for that matter multi-player) is not just about whether there's a market for it, but whether the cost of implementing it relative to the size of that market actually makes sense.
Implementing VR is not as cheap and easy as the VR manufacturers would have you think. Aside from the overhead of supporting numerous different VR implementations in order to capture enough segments of the fractured market to make it viable at all, making it comfortable to use means cutting down on key elements of the game to achieve the high framerates required, adapting the user interface and control system, and making numerous other smaller changes, all of which takes a considerable amount of work. Our experience with XR VR showed that while it was a really nice addition to the game, and great fun to work on, the numbers simply didn't add up. Nothing that has happened since then has convinced us that that situation has changed, and we cannot afford to keep throwing money at VR on the off-chance that it may one day pay off.
The same applies to multi-player, but on very a different scale. Nobody is suggesting that there isn't a market for it, or even that the market is small, but the cost of implementing it is also much, much higher than VR. This isn't a game where you can just exchange a few pieces of data over a network about what's going on around the player and have multi-player magically start working. The whole game universe is being simulated; things that change somewhere on the other side of the galaxy can affect what's happening near you. The only way to avoid the need for huge amounts of data to be bouncing between clients to keep them in sync would be to cut it down to a 1v1 local combat simulation, but that's totally at odds with what X series games are all about. The other alternative would to go full-on MMO-style server-based universe, but that is a truly massive undertaking that we have so far never been in a position to start serious work on. Not to put too fine a point on it, people who suggest "simple" solutions in between these two options simply don't understand what's involved; and the same applies to those who suggest that we have somehow "resisted" making the game multi-player. It's true that we know that our strength lies in the universe simulation, but we wouldn't pass up the opportunity to make that simulation available to multiple players if there was a way to do it within practical, technical and financial constraints (and, of course, without it negatively impacting on our loyal single-player customers!).
CBJ wrote: ↑Wed, 24. Jun 20, 16:18
We've been over this many times before, but I will re-iterate it yet again. The issue with VR (and for that matter multi-player) is not just about whether there's a market for it, but whether the cost of implementing it relative to the size of that market actually makes sense.
Implementing VR is not as cheap and easy as the VR manufacturers would have you think. Aside from the overhead of supporting numerous ........
Because of VR and multiplayer.
It would be too nice to implement something like:! Xenon invasion in black sun, in 10 minutes! - And a multiplayer server throws a few people together to manage an invasion with other players in one system. And only at this event is VR offered in cockpit mode;) I do not know about technical difficults, but mayybe you haven't thought of something like this, and it is much easier?
Edit: In order not to simulate the game of every player, it might be easier to teleport the players into a separate system, as was the case with the Khaak. Then could the MP part be carried out there? No matter if fleet MP or Co-Op invasion .....
Last edited by EGO_Aut on Thu, 25. Jun 20, 09:21, edited 1 time in total.
CBJ wrote: ↑Wed, 24. Jun 20, 17:07
Not wishing to be rude, but did you read the rest of my post? I addressed literally everything you have just said.
Ok sry i dont want to challenge you, i know i know there must be a system thats equal to all players and so on....but it would be too nice, even some kind of "simple thing".
CBJ wrote: ↑Wed, 24. Jun 20, 16:18
We've been over this many times before, but I will re-iterate it yet again. The issue with VR (and for that matter multi-player) is not just about whether there's a market for it, but whether the cost of implementing it relative to the size of that market actually makes sense.
Implementing VR is not as cheap and easy as the VR manufacturers would have you think. Aside from the overhead of supporting numerous different VR implementations in order to capture enough segments of the fractured market to make it viable at all, making it comfortable to use means cutting down on key elements of the game to achieve the high framerates required, adapting the user interface and control system, and making numerous other smaller changes, all of which takes a considerable amount of work. Our experience with XR VR showed that while it was a really nice addition to the game, and great fun to work on, the numbers simply didn't add up. Nothing that has happened since then has convinced us that that situation has changed, and we cannot afford to keep throwing money at VR on the off-chance that it may one day pay off.
Ok, it sounds like development time is the main cost factor for VR. I thought it was something like the licensing for the manufacturers' dev kits. If that were so costly I was wondering why other niche space games like NMS and E:D include VR for free while widely successful games like Skyrim release a separate standalone "VR Edition".
The same applies to multi-player, but on very a different scale. Nobody is suggesting that there isn't a market for it, or even that the market is small, but the cost of implementing it is also much, much higher than VR. This isn't a game where you can just exchange a few pieces of data over a network about what's going on around the player and have multi-player magically start working. The whole game universe is being simulated; things that change somewhere on the other side of the galaxy can affect what's happening near you. The only way to avoid the need for huge amounts of data to be bouncing between clients to keep them in sync would be to cut it down to a 1v1 local combat simulation, but that's totally at odds with what X series games are all about. The other alternative would to go full-on MMO-style server-based universe, but that is a truly massive undertaking that we have so far never been in a position to start serious work on. Not to put too fine a point on it, people who suggest "simple" solutions in between these two options simply don't understand what's involved; and the same applies to those who suggest that we have somehow "resisted" making the game multi-player. It's true that we know that our strength lies in the universe simulation, but we wouldn't pass up the opportunity to make that simulation available to multiple players if there was a way to do it within practical, technical and financial constraints (and, of course, without it negatively impacting on our loyal single-player customers!).
I kind of guessed the universe simulation was the main reason. I'm actually in the camp that prefers single player, just wondered why Egosoft was so resistant to adding mainstream features that attract more players, and in Hello Games' case make people think they "fixed" their game.
Thanks for providing feedback even though you've gone over this many times.
CBJ wrote: ↑Wed, 24. Jun 20, 16:18
We've been over this many times before, but I will re-iterate it yet again. The issue with VR (and for that matter multi-player) is not just about whether there's a market for it, but whether the cost of implementing it relative to the size of that market actually makes sense.
Implementing VR is not as cheap and easy as the VR manufacturers would have you think. Aside from the overhead of supporting numerous different VR implementations in order to capture enough segments of the fractured market to make it viable at all, making it comfortable to use means cutting down on key elements of the game to achieve the high framerates required, adapting the user interface and control system, and making numerous other smaller changes, all of which takes a considerable amount of work. Our experience with XR VR showed that while it was a really nice addition to the game, and great fun to work on, the numbers simply didn't add up. Nothing that has happened since then has convinced us that that situation has changed, and we cannot afford to keep throwing money at VR on the off-chance that it may one day pay off.
Appreciate you responding. I'm hoping that now EA have finally dipped a toe in the VR field (some little X Wing game), and with the success of the Oculus Quest (and Link) that the numbers start making it worth looking into further down the road, I'm still loving the game btw, just wanted to sit in a virtual cockpit coasting past immense space stations and having my heart lurch when a Xenon ship cuts across my starboard bow.
Frontier Development have also dropped VR for their upcoming paid DLC, as has Everspace 2 and Star Citizen may never have it
@ repatomonor: I use ED Tracker (£20 ish) which emulates IR Tracker and works really well in X4 Foundations.
CBJ wrote: ↑Wed, 24. Jun 20, 16:18
The only way to avoid the need for huge amounts of data to be bouncing between clients to keep them in sync would be to cut it down to a 1v1 local combat simulation, but that's totally at odds with what X series games are all about.
I think it would actually be a lot of fun to have a 1v1 local combat simulation, not replacing what we have already, but adding to it as a separate mode that could be selected in the menu. Not try to simulate the entire universe, just a single sector at most, where two players can test out their dogfighting and fleet command abilities against each other. Play around with ship balance, see what works best, be a fleet commander and ship commander at the same time. I'd pay for a DLC like that! I think a lot of other players would be happy to have something like this as well. It would not be something to replace the current X4 game, I think it would greatly add to it as a separate mode though.
CBJ wrote: ↑Wed, 24. Jun 20, 17:07
Not wishing to be rude, but did you read the rest of my post? I addressed literally everything you have just said.
Ok sry i dont want to challenge you, i know i know there must be a system thats equal to all players and so on....but it would be too nice, even some kind of "simple thing".
Dude - you literally described the Elite Dangerous multi-player. While, it might sounds cool and simple...it has nothing to do with core of X4 gameplay (simulating large, complex universe)...without the core of X-game this would be just a shallow MP-based space-sim and you have tons of these.
Why to bother with it, if you could just play ED right now?
CBJ wrote: ↑Wed, 24. Jun 20, 17:07
Not wishing to be rude, but did you read the rest of my post? I addressed literally everything you have just said.
Ok sry i dont want to challenge you, i know i know there must be a system thats equal to all players and so on....but it would be too nice, even some kind of "simple thing".
Dude - you literally described the Elite Dangerous multi-player. While, it might sounds cool and simple...it has nothing to do with core of X4 gameplay (simulating large, complex universe)...without the core of X-game this would be just a shallow MP-based space-sim and you have tons of these.
Why to bother with it, if you could just play ED right now?
Can you control a fleet in ED multiplayer, while simultaneously flying around in your own fighter or destroyer?
CBJ wrote: ↑Wed, 24. Jun 20, 17:07
Not wishing to be rude, but did you read the rest of my post? I addressed literally everything you have just said.
Ok sry i dont want to challenge you, i know i know there must be a system thats equal to all players and so on....but it would be too nice, even some kind of "simple thing".
Dude - you literally described the Elite Dangerous multi-player. While, it might sounds cool and simple...it has nothing to do with core of X4 gameplay (simulating large, complex universe)...without the core of X-game this would be just a shallow MP-based space-sim and you have tons of these.
Why to bother with it, if you could just play ED right now?
Whats your problem with it?
I never played ED, but a simple Multiplayer Adon would be nice - you do not need to play some kind of Multiplayer Invasion with other ppl, you could choose.
If you dont like it you play your SP Sandbox, but if you like a MP Element to play with others, you will be teleported (expedition?) in some kind of "contested" Sektor with other ppl to fight Xenon or Khaak.
If i want a complex MMOG i would go back to a game that sounds like a name of a girl I like to SP in X4, but only sometimes i would like to interact with other PPL or take a VR-Headset (i do not like it to wear it more as 1-2h, but 3D it great)
Last edited by EGO_Aut on Wed, 24. Jun 20, 22:52, edited 2 times in total.
Only if you can use the Track IR software, if you can't, then you're boned. My TrackIR works perfectly in things such as X-Plane using linuxtrack and ltr_gui, but since it's not the software that only runs on Malwindows, it's not supported by X4.
Ok sry i dont want to challenge you, i know i know there must be a system thats equal to all players and so on....but it would be too nice, even some kind of "simple thing".
Dude - you literally described the Elite Dangerous multi-player. While, it might sounds cool and simple...it has nothing to do with core of X4 gameplay (simulating large, complex universe)...without the core of X-game this would be just a shallow MP-based space-sim and you have tons of these.
Why to bother with it, if you could just play ED right now?
Can you control a fleet in ED multiplayer, while simultaneously flying around in your own fighter or destroyer?
You want fleet battles?
Try Infinity: Battlescape
If you really want MP experience, there are other games that provide what you need.
