best M combat ship ???

[Raptor34]

I'm also totally not sold on rattlesnake being the most cost effective destroyer. They're fastest, they have the most firepower, but their low main battery range will have them taking way more damage than others.

Perhaps. But if your AI loves getting into close range scuffles, then the Rattlesnakes superior dps will carry the day.
Depends on numbers to a certain extent.

[Imperial Good]

The dragon raider can't dogfight at all, it has to do strafing runs. Dogfighting in that ship is insta-death even from a tiny tiny group of Xenon M's, N's, or P's.

My video series shows otherwise...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2QtdbXBGxk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYHcffMSF8s&t=920s

It dog fights perfectly well. One can get behind any enemy with just a tap of boost. Once behind they cannot really do much to lose you as you are faster than them in every way. With 6 M guns nothing S or M lasts too long, especially if exceptional mods are applied to them. When heavily out numbered by a close formation the Nemesis does little better since it takes a lot more hits and shields last only a little longer anyway due to how much firepower is being thrown at it. In such cases one can throw out some S ships as distraction to even the numbers.

The nemesis vanguard, has only ~250kms less speed

This difference is expanded due to how ship mods work. Good luck getting a Nemesis to 1 km/sec speed. On the other hand Dragon Raider can get 1.3 km/sec or possibly even 1.4 km/sec with perfect mod rolls. Let us not forget the much better travel and boost speed.

Sure, it's got speed, so the flaming wreckage it turns into when it gets hit by anything with more destructive power than a snowball, can remind us all of falling stars, and to make wishes... like the dragon raider not wilting under the slightest pressure.

S ship swarms with pulse lasers are the only ships that can hit it reliably and even then it needs a huge number disadvantage in a tight space. Single ships stand no chance at all since Dragon Raider can hit boost and be behind them in under a second where all they can do is try to dodge until they die.

Don't think I ever used my repair laser more than when I was flying a Dragon Raider, but at the time it was the only Split M warship I could buy. Sometimes felt like I was spending more time outside it making repairs than inside flying the damn thing. Must be all that soggy cardboard they used for armour. Best thing I ever did with it was use it to steal a proper Dragon (& best thing I did with that was to steal a Cobra), so does have it's uses. Wouldn't be flying the ship I do now without it.

Being an M ship that is flown by the player it will auto repair to 90%+ hull anyway. If I do want that extra <10% hull or are annoyed by the health bar being visible I send it to any short of player owned ship repair facility and repair the rest for free in an instant. Honestly cannot remember the last time I used the repair laser on anything other than mission targets.

(the extra drones make a huge difference on repair)?

I do not think so. The repair logic checks if the host ship supports mass traffic and since M ships do not I suspect it does not get to calculating repair drones into the repair rate. That said one can always to a scientific test and time approximately how long the same ship takes to repair with and without repair drones. Of course reload between attempts as crew can earn experience by repairing which will improve repair speed.

I'm also totally not sold on rattlesnake being the most cost effective destroyer. They're fastest, they have the most firepower, but their low main battery range will have them taking way more damage than others.

They are the best player flown destroyer. With weapon mods you melt Ks like nothing. With speed mods they are fast enough to avoid most missiles and even reverse away from Xenon I heading towards it.

Out of sector their DPS is really good and is the only destroyer that can almost solo a Xenon K without mods.

[zakaluka]

They are the best player flown destroyer.

I'll agree with that.

Out of sector their DPS is really good and is the only destroyer that can almost solo a Xenon K without mods.

Still takes 2 unmodded rattlesnakes to handle a K. 2 ody, 2 rattlesnake. The ody on the other hand will stay far away and take a lot less damage, gives you a little leeway in how you react when the fight goes from 1-sided in your favor to unmatched and you're losing.

I've played it both ways, full out firepower with rattlesnakes, and defensive with odys/behemoths. I find it to be mostly a matter of preference, except the rattlesnake clearly wins *when you're the one piloting it* and it's fully modded.

[Imperial Good]

Still takes 2 unmodded rattlesnakes to handle a K. 2 ody, 2 rattlesnake. The ody on the other hand will stay far away and take a lot less damage, gives you a little leeway in how you react when the fight goes from 1-sided in your favor to unmatched and you're losing.

Now try that with the Phoenix and Behemoth. I seen tons of Ks solo 2 NPC ones without a scratch.

[GCU Grey Area]

Being an M ship that is flown by the player it will auto repair to 90%+ hull anyway. If I do want that extra <10% hull or are annoyed by the health bar being visible I send it to any short of player owned ship repair facility and repair the rest for free in an instant. Honestly cannot remember the last time I used the repair laser on anything other than mission targets.

Still takes time waiting for repairs & Dragon Raider has such a weak hull every single point is vital - on more than one occasion if I hadn't gone into the fight with a fully repaired hull it would have been game over before the end of it. Perhaps it was the ships I was hunting at the time - ZYA fighters & Dragons (stealing them was my only source at the time), but it seemed every time I went into combat my shields would vanish in an instant & then they'd start knocking great chunks out of the hull. Was really quite a relief when I finally managed to nab a ZYA Dragon, shields were still just as abysmal but at least I had a bit more hull to play with. It even came with a mk4 engine.

Cobra though suits me perfectly, can slow down a bit & properly dogfight, not just boom & zoom. It can take multiple hits from a Xenon L turret & keep going. Don't tend to worry too much even if shields do go down. It's got more than enough hull to tank it out for a while longer (almost as much as an Osprey V). On the rare occasions that the hull does get down to dubious levels it's just as easy to get it out of a fight as either of the Dragons - point the nose at an empty patch of space & a few seconds later I'm well out of range of enemy gunfire (top speed = 1157m/s!). Only thing I have to remember is to bring my Tuatara into internal storage (by launching drones) if I'm heading into a big fight. Think I'm currently on my 3rd - they're not nearly so resilient when dive bombing Xenon turrets.

[grapedog]

I think my Nemesis only gets up to around 900kms or so... still faster than anything except a few split ships, but it handles better and turns better. Dragon Raider being fast is great and all, but when it can't turn better than a Nemesis, and it's shields buckle under the slightest pressure, it ends up spending more time running.

And I know you like to say concentrated packs of enemies... but how many are you talking about. I'll take my Nemesis solo into battle with anything less than 10-15.... while a dragon raider, with it's 1 extra gun, will get smoked trying to sit behind a target with it's flimsy shields and thin hull. The nemesis, cobra, and I believe even the non-raider dragon will last a lot longer.

If you were trying to argue the Cobra was a better M class ship, or a dragon maybe, I'd at least give your argument some credit... because I could certainly see scenarios in which the Cobra would outperform the Nemesis... but the dragon raider, i can't really see any situation in which I would chose that ship over a nemesis, cobra, regular dragon, or even a gorgon, or cerberus. Unless I wanted to run away really fast.... i guess if the goal was to run away as fast as possible, i'd pick the dragon raider.

There we go, i'd probably fly a dragon raider over an osprey... because their top speed is terrible.

Also, depending on the faction I was playing... and who my enemies were, if I could do fleet building missions for my enemies, I'd try to give them as many dragon raiders as possible if they needed M ships... because I know my nemesis would literally sneeze on them and they'd be dead. Or, they'd all run away, which is the only thing they're good for.

[Imperial Good]

Still takes time waiting for repairs

S/M ships finish repairs the instant they dock at the repair facility, which can be mobile. Hence the only time wasted is docking, which is quite fast.

Dragon Raider has such a weak hull every single point is vital - on more than one occasion if I hadn't gone into the fight with a fully repaired hull it would have been game over before the end of it.

Sounds like you are pushing the ship too much. Picking fights that there is even a chance to lose is pointless and one can just send in a couple of L or XL or a wing of S as a distraction. As soon as some of the enemy ships are no longer focusing completely on you it becomes trivial, as was shown in the videos. It struggles when it gets to 4 or more ships nearby attacking it, but then again every non-L or larger ship struggles in these cases. Sure the Nemesis might be able to face tank all that damage due to its tougher shields or the Dragon due to its tougher hull but still that is not optimal fighting as you are effectively fighting at a number disadvantage. It is not really a dog fight anymore when there will always be 3 or more fighters gunning at you.

can slow down a bit & properly dogfight

Its turn speed restricts that. Hence one should not take it for dog fighting but rather for its other characteristics. It also is such a massive target that it takes more hits.

It can take multiple hits from a Xenon L turret & keep going.

Not like the Dragon Raider can even be hit by Xenon L turrets if flown properly... Only reason I got hit in my video series was because I was messing around waiting for my other ships with anti-capital weaponry to finish off the target. That and I likely suck at flying ships, I never did well in Freelancer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVCcwdOt3EU

still faster than anything except a few split ships

And the Gorgon Vanguard of PAR.

but it handles better and turns better

They handle about the same. Only reason the Dragon Raider may feel significantly worse is because it is faster so even if it were to turn faster the turning circle would still be bigger.

Yes it is technically slower turning, which makes the problem even more noticeable. However without mods it takes 5.1 seconds to do a full 360 instead of just 4.2. A 0.9 saving which is even less in practice since one does not do 360s. With mods that difference is even smaller as both turn faster.

And I know you like to say concentrated packs of enemies... but how many are you talking about. I'll take my Nemesis solo into battle with anything less than 10-15.... while a dragon raider, with it's 1 extra gun, will get smoked trying to sit behind a target with it's flimsy shields and thin hull. The nemesis, cobra, and I believe even the non-raider dragon will last a lot longer.

About 10-15, in tight formation. Basically where any M ship melts in seconds if they start taking hits.

One can compensate for this by adding sniper mods to the Pulse Laser guns. With that you out right out range everything but harmless plasma. As such you can death run any size or density of fleet by focusing the S ships first from out of their range and then boosting away from most of the damage. Low shield means little to the boost since one is only tapping the button due to how insanely fast the Dragon Raider is. Alternatively one can skip dealing with such fleets in person and order in some backup like a couple of L destroyers to act as a distraction. Once 10-15 ships are not focus firing you, the battle has already been won with no risk to your shield.

because I know my nemesis would literally sneeze on them and they'd be dead. Or, they'd all run away, which is the only thing they're good for.

As shown in the video linked above. The toughest Nemesis Sentinel or Gorgon Sentinel was no match for my Dragon Raider using sub-optimal weaponry. They are so slow and easy to hit they basically become bullet sponges.

[EGO_Aut]

@grapedog, i like my nemesis and cobra.

I would say Cobra is the best M to capture pirate fregattes or others. It is much more relaxing than the Nemesis and you can park a S ship. I recommend it for every purpose it is the jack of all trades.

And Dragon Raider is the fastest ship, my favorite ship for casual fights - so why should i drive with a VW Beatle when i have a Porsche? With Taus there is no need to dogfight enemys, but you have to be fast in weapon range. Even the Nemesis would loose its speed in a curve, like every M, but the Dragon acelerates faster if it has to. Just kill and run, wait for the shields and do it again. With lets say +250 m/s speed difference i am 2500m farther away then a Nemesis witch is still being shot at after 10s.

I only would prefer the Nemesis over a Dragon or Cobra if i need to eleminate K or I turrets, but i do not need it anymore because my S fighters/fregattes do the job. And a simple K is much faster soloed in a Dragon, 5 vs 6 slots you know.

With some experience there is no need for a Nemesis, and for careful ppl a Dragon can do the job. But if you don't mind the slower speed, the Nemesis is a good ship.

[zakaluka]

The one thing I found the dragon raider capable of is picking off all an enemy destroyer's hardpoints from a distance. Equip the thing full up with mk2 bolts or blast mortars for instance, it can circle strafe easily from 4km and back off as needed when shields get low. You won't be taking damage from plasmas or xenon L turrets because it's so agile while strafing. So it's pretty capable for solo boarding ops.

Aside from that, it wouldn't ever be my first choice for fleet combat.

to the OP: when everyone's so deeply divided about what's best, it means you're really free to choose what you like. They did a relatively good job giving each choice its own unique pros and cons. I think the ONE thing we can all agree on here is that ospreys are far too slow to be useful, and if you ever happen to get one you should sell it immediately in trade for just about anything else.

[Ebany]

Minotaur Raider - Best at the start (prior to DLC) as it was cheap, easy to capture, great as a capper, has big cockpit view, versatile, huge crew.

Gorgon Vanguard - Prior to the first DLC been released, this was my favourite. Excellent steering, fast, good acceleration, tough shields and hull, decent cargo space, (1x) S docking, huge crew, great weapon ports for fighting/capping, awesome cockpit view.

Cobra - Basically a buffed Gorgon Vanguard but with only half the shield strength. I love this ship the most but find the lack of shields can be an issue as only S-class craft seem effective at straff/dodging. Also have odd issues with it getting stuck to structures.

Overall the M-class craft I still use the most is the Gorgon Vanguard but I'd possibly rank the Cobra as a better ship. There was a time when all species had specific bonuses to certain craft making it desirable to become friendly with all factions. e.g. Split were fast, Boron had large cargo holds, Paranid had good weapons, Goner had great transports, Teladi had tough shields, etc. Now I don't bother with any other faction except Paranid as they have all the best ships and gear. In many ways Split are now the new Paranid, all their ships and weapons seem far superior but sacrifice shielding.

[Imperial Good]

Cobra - Basically a buffed Gorgon Vanguard but with only half the shield strength. I love this ship the most but find the lack of shields can be an issue as only S-class craft seem effective at straff/dodging. Also have odd issues with it getting stuck to structures.

It has 2 M shield generators instead of 3 so it has 2/3 of the maximum shield.

[grapedog]

I only would prefer the Nemesis over a Dragon or Cobra if i need to eleminate K or I turrets, but i do not need it anymore because my S fighters/fregattes do the job. And a simple K is much faster soloed in a Dragon, 5 vs 6 slots you know.

With some experience there is no need for a Nemesis, and for careful ppl a Dragon can do the job. But if you don't mind the slower speed, the Nemesis is a good ship.

this is why i like my nemesis, i can take down I's and K's, or large packs of enemies, without need for calling in additional ships. i like the cobra for the same reason, just the 3 main weapons, it takes a bit longer.

[GCU Grey Area]

S/M ships finish repairs the instant they dock at the repair facility, which can be mobile. Hence the only time wasted is docking, which is quite fast.

When I was flying my Dragon Raider I didn't have anywhere near enough to afford a fleet of 20 million credit auxiliaries to keep it constantly patched up. Had just the one ship which was in almost constant need of repairs. When I eventually swapped it for a Cobra, still didn't have that fleet but the need for repairs was far less essential. Sufficient hull that waiting for the crew to fix it was practical - even heading into battle with only 1/2 the hull intact was viable (still double that of a Dragon Raider at full hull). Think ships should be judged on their own merits, rather than what they can accomplish if they also have a fleet of capital ships to help them.

Sounds like you are pushing the ship too much. Picking fights that there is even a chance to lose is pointless and one can just send in a couple of L or XL or a wing of S as a distraction. As soon as some of the enemy ships are no longer focusing completely on you it becomes trivial, as was shown in the videos. It struggles when it gets to 4 or more ships nearby attacking it, but then again every non-L or larger ship struggles in these cases. Sure the Nemesis might be able to face tank all that damage due to its tougher shields or the Dragon due to its tougher hull but still that is not optimal fighting as you are effectively fighting at a number disadvantage. It is not really a dog fight anymore when there will always be 3 or more fighters gunning at you.

Again you're working on the assumption that Dragon Raider's fine if you also have a fleet of capital warships. In my experience Dragon Raider on it's own has issues if there's more than a handful of enemies around. Cobra doesn't.

Its turn speed restricts that. Hence one should not take it for dog fighting but rather for its other characteristics. It also is such a massive target that it takes more hits.

Turn rate's fine on mine:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/k9nd1npfzevb2 ... 1.jpg?dl=0
Easily good enough for dogfighting. As for taking more hits, probably does, but with 2x shielding & 4x hull of Dragon Raider it's generally inconsequential.

Not like the Dragon Raider can even be hit by Xenon L turrets if flown properly... Only reason I got hit in my video series was because I was messing around waiting for my other ships with anti-capital weaponry to finish off the target. That and I likely suck at flying ships, I never did well in Freelancer.

Yeah, wouldn't dream of using a Dragon Raider for smashing Xenon L turrets. Too bloody risky - ship's far too flimsy for the task. Not remotely a problem for Cobra - full speed dive directly towards the turret, brief burst of gunfire to soften it up, then a torp launched at point blank range to finish the job. Do take the occasional hit doing that, but generally doesn't matter in the slightest - Cobra can easily withstand the shot & be back outside turret range in under 5 seconds.

[bbn]

For me there are 3 M ships that I switch between: Cobra, Dragon Raider and Nemesis Vanguard.

Nemesis Vanguard:
- used to be my main ship for quite some time
- good punching power, good shields/armor
- quite maneuverable for M ship
- it's a little too slow right now for my personal taste (esp. in travel mode), so it is docked more and more...

Cobra:
- when I discovered it I thought it will be my only ship
- best for boarding - 25 marines are ideal for boarding
- Total firepower is ok, but I don't really like to relay on turrets in my personal ship
- It's fast
- It slides too much... sometimes it can be to your advantage, but at started to annoy me more than it was fun

Dragon Raider:
- really, really fast
- very good frontal firepower
- weak on shields, but so fast it is hardly being hit by anything
- nowadays it's my main ship -> can get anywhere in the universe quicky plus can engage in a fight without too much risk


I need to test out others too. Will start with Gorgon as it was recommended in this thread.

But on unrelated note... I tend to go towards S ships more and more... Two of my favorites right now are Chimera (more brittle version of Dragon Raider, but without sliding) and Nova Vanguard (very nice up/down movement, too bad it only has 2 guns).

[paraskous]

Dragon Raider and Cobra seem good to me. Cobra is nice with dock place. Dragon engines sound better though. I expected more guns from the M class - a bit surprised that it's just Split with decent mains. I don't mind the turrets much - I chalk them of as basically useless - the Plasma ones helped on Dragon vs K solo, though. A bit. Maybe I'll try some beams on Cobra turrets. Bolt seemed to do little.

[GCU Grey Area]

Maybe I'll try some beams on Cobra turrets. Bolt seemed to do little.

I'm using Shard turrets on mine, upgraded with basic Slasher mods (all re-rolled until minimum +33% damage & +84% reload). Need to get fairly close (<1km) & slow down to a similar speed as the target, however if you do they can deliver reliable damage even to evasive S targets. Often shoot main guns (2x Tau) until they're on the verge of overheating then let my turrets finish the job. That way my Taus are nice & cool by the time I'm on the tail of the next target.

[paraskous]

Maybe I'll try some beams on Cobra turrets. Bolt seemed to do little.

I'm using Shard turrets on mine, upgraded with basic Slasher mods (all re-rolled until minimum +33% damage & +84% reload). Need to get fairly close (<1km) & slow down to a similar speed as the target, however if you do they can deliver reliable damage even to evasive S targets. Often shoot main guns (2x Tau) until they're on the verge of overheating then let my turrets finish the job. That way my Taus are nice & cool by the time I'm on the tail of the next target.

I'm only unlocking mods now I think. First ever PT and not explored the Research tree fully. But shard is a good idea - I just don't want to risk firendly fire so much.

[Warnoise]

Cobra>Nemesis>Dragon>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>everything else

[paraskous]

Haven't looked at any of the Paranid ships it just dawned on me.

[Imperial Good]

Again you're working on the assumption that Dragon Raider's fine if you also have a fleet of capital warships. In my experience Dragon Raider on it's own has issues if there's more than a handful of enemies around. Cobra doesn't.

Cobra does struggle in these same situations as well. Even 3 Xenon Ps can melt its shielding as 2 shield generators is still very little when lots of damage starts to be thrown around. On the other hand Dragon Raider kills the Ps considerably faster due to its double gun count so usually none of the Ps can get strafe runs going on the Dragon Raider since it can move on before then.

Easily good enough for dogfighting. As for taking more hits, probably does, but with 2x shielding & 4x hull of Dragon Raider it's generally inconsequential.

If you take 3 times the hits all that extra toughness is pointless as effective toughness would be the same as Dragon Raider.

Yeah, wouldn't dream of using a Dragon Raider for smashing Xenon L turrets. Too bloody risky - ship's far too flimsy for the task. Not remotely a problem for Cobra - full speed dive directly towards the turret, brief burst of gunfire to soften it up, then a torp launched at point blank range to finish the job. Do take the occasional hit doing that, but generally doesn't matter in the slightest - Cobra can easily withstand the shot & be back outside turret range in under 5 seconds.

Dragon Raider works fine with smashing xenon L turrets. When modified and with some skill it becomes impossible for Xenon L turrets to hit it. One can use the same approach as stripping capital ships of turrets in XR, WASD in a circle so the turret's predictive aiming always misses. One just needs to make sure to keep within the maximum operating range of the ships guns, such as 4-5km as too close and there comes a chance they might land hits. With balanced shield mods the Dragon Raider shielding can take roughly 3-4 XEN L turret hits which is sufficient operating margin.

Taking out XEN L turrets with a M ship is not a productive use of time. Both Odysseus (of which one can be obtained for free) and Rattlesnake are far more effective at killing Xenon K and I ships. The Odysseus main battery is so powerful that without weapon modifications it can one-shot XEN L turrets of the K from ~10km away making it great for removing turrets off xenon stations. The I banks may have extra shielding, but one is generally better off swarming these with S ships or sieging them with a personally flown destroyer from outside XEN L turret range as it takes longer to kill the dozens of L turrets than to kill the I directly.