Skill and training Feedback

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zakaluka
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Re: Skill and training Feedback - Improved in 3.10 beta 1.

Post by zakaluka »

tomchk wrote: Thu, 9. Apr 20, 21:58 There is a crew roster under the Empire menu, but I don't think you can do much with it, like give seminars. I need to check again.
It shows you all 8 million of your employed crews and staff in one screen. You can't sort or filter, or interact with it in any way.

It's not useful. Even if you could filter to managers & ships you'd have a hard time with it, because the identity you get is the ship/station's name, the person's role, and their average skill level.

More useful place to put this info is on the right of each ship/station's banner in the map overview. IMO. That would show you the pilots & managers in your current view, and make them interactable.
Alm888
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Re: Skill and training Feedback - Improved in 3.10 beta 1.

Post by Alm888 »

Maxumous wrote: Thu, 9. Apr 20, 21:10So yeah Food Rations and Medial supplies are essential at the start giving you a boost to all stations you own in productivity.
Except that at the start you don't own any stations at all! And on top of that "Food Rations" are race-specific which limits customer pool even further, making it worthless trade ware. And, on top of that, living modules cost an arm and a leg if you decide to purchase them legally, and without the HQ you can't steal blueprints either.
"Refined Metals" or "Silicon Wafers" are clearly more reasonable. The only problem is Teladi in Grand Exchange don't use "Refined Metals" (it is "Teladianium" for them), so in order to sell the ware you'd need a pool of trading ships to export to Argon/Paranid. That is unless one opts to
build the first big factory elsewhere.
Maxumous wrote: Thu, 9. Apr 20, 21:10You got to think of not loosing money but gaining profit. I wasn't talking about other factions, this is essential for your on empire.
"Hull Parts" are essential. :)
Mackan wrote: Thu, 9. Apr 20, 15:41
Sirilius wrote: Thu, 9. Apr 20, 10:44Miners are actually supposed to be gaining experience from mining, but it seems all kinds of broken right now…
WOW! That's interesting. So, in order to maximize the rate we need to throw (max-1) amount of useless wares in the cargo hold! Not only it will maximaze the rate, but also will speed up the "harvesting" process (only 1 target material to collect). :twisted:
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Nort The Fragrent
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Re: Skill and training Feedback - Improved in 3.10 beta 1.

Post by Nort The Fragrent »

X3 worked well, a new captain was next to hopeless, yet could still do trading. Be it slow and in a restricted area. And the ship was also limited in capacity, slowing the rank advancement as well.
Eventually rank increased and the captain could do more!
X4 ! Uumm ! Seems frigin awkward requiring micromanaging each captain .

Also the upgrading of ship carrying capacity was a neat part of the x3 game. As you gained more wealth in the early game it was a sense of achievement to then upgrade your trading ships to carry more cargo.

This ridged block amount of cargo for a ship has lost some of the charm of X3.
To get a trading ship up to full spec was good feeling, something lost in X4.
CaptainRAVE
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Re: Skill and training Feedback - Improved in 3.10 beta 1.

Post by CaptainRAVE »

90 hours on my new split start. My original miners, still at 2 stars. My station managers, many now at 5. Why? Entirely skipped traders, more hassle than they are worth. It has been tedious moving crew about to get the right managers in the right stations I.e. so that miners can reach sectors with resources.

The new system is half baked, broken and puts me off ever wanting to start again. I won’t be buying anymore X games if they aim to make the game more tedious.
MHDriver
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Re: Skill and training Feedback - Improved in 3.10 beta 1.

Post by MHDriver »

CaptainRAVE wrote: Fri, 10. Apr 20, 00:35 90 hours on my new split start. My original miners, still at 2 stars. My station managers, many now at 5. Why? Entirely skipped traders, more hassle than they are worth. It has been tedious moving crew about to get the right managers in the right stations I.e. so that miners can reach sectors with resources.

The new system is half baked, broken and puts me off ever wanting to start again. I won’t be buying anymore X games if they aim to make the game more tedious.
I agree, tedium does not equate to interesting or "immmmmeeeeerrrrrsssssiiiiivvvvveeeee" It's just tedium and in my case with 840 ships to manage it is beyond ridiculous. ES said oh, this is what the long term players wanted. Well I have roughly 2500 hours and would think that makes me a long term player I guess, I surely do not want more tedium.
dtpsprt
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Re: Skill and training Feedback - Improved in 3.10 beta 1.

Post by dtpsprt »

surferx wrote: Thu, 9. Apr 20, 15:08 My vote: Leave skill and training as is.
Can the game please be just a little bit challenging? Mods are available for the microwave generation who want to "finish" their game in a matter of a few days play then complain that there's nothing left to do.
I'm fine playing (and enjoying) the game for many months.
X4 is so much more immersive than the previous X series because of the many small touches and details just one of which is training your workers.
Right... I DO happen to remember that in previous X series you started a trader in a single sector only, and it could trade only what was already know by you for that sector. Then, after time and successful trades, it could start expanding on neighbouring sectors gradually (1, then 2... up to 5) and after reaching that point for some time it could become a universal trader. So, this means that being stuck without trading options with a trader (except of blind trading without calculating profit or loss) after you have MANUALLY given him (and not only by seminars) his second star he will NEVER be able to trade on his own, even for a limited range of sectors.
THIS IS YOUR IMMERSION?

P.S. I found a 4 star Pilot on a station (4,5 piloting - 4 Morale - 3,5 Engineering - 3 Management - 2,5 Boarding) for 90+ MILLIONS are we serious?
dtpsprt
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Re: Skill and training Feedback - Improved in 3.10 beta 1.

Post by dtpsprt »

Mackan wrote: Thu, 9. Apr 20, 15:41
Miners are actually supposed to be gaining experience from mining, but it seems all kinds of broken right now:

Code: Select all

      <do_if value="not this.assignedcontrolled.cargo.{$ware}.free and (this.assignedcontrolled.cargo.{$ware}.max - $startcapacity)">
        <!-- we have duration, amount collected, max capacity. nothing sensible and consistent to compare duration with so sticking with amount. useful since ratio between amount collected and max capacity can be influenced. -->
        <set_value name="$XP_factor" exact="[(this.assignedcontrolled.cargo.{$ware}.max - $startcapacity)f / [(this.assignedcontrolled.cargo.{$ware}.max)f, 1.0].max, 1.0].min"/>
        <debug_text text="'applying mining XP. factor: %s, start capacity: %s, max capacity: %s'.[$XP_factor, $startcapacity, this.assignedcontrolled.cargo.{$ware}.max]" chance="$debugchance"/>

        <apply_experience entity="this" experience="'ship_mine_full'" factor="$XP_factor"/>
        <apply_experience object="this.assignedcontrolled" role="entityrole.service" experience="'ship_mine_full'" factor="$XP_factor"/>
      </do_if>
There are two conditions for applying mining experience. The first one is for the cargo to be full, which is fine. The second condition however is for (max capacity - start capacity) to return non-zero. Which it won't do if the cargo was empty at start of mining. Don't know why there's an if-statement at all though, seems unnecessary considering how factor is handled.

Next problem is the factor. The idea seems to be to lower the level up chance based on start capacity. So if mining was started with empty cargo, chance factor would be 100%. If cargo was half full, chance factor would be 50% etc. Right now the code does the exact opposite. It's set to ((max capacity - start capacity) / max capacity). This has the funny effect of increasing level up chance the less resources the miner mined. It's probably supposed to be (start capacity / max capacity) instead, someone just made a mistake.
Kane Hart wrote: Thu, 9. Apr 20, 08:43 Just a question would help with this as well. There any chance you be willing to expand this to say all the different behaviors?

Might give people a chance to try new ones out but maybe even also find some better methods or help balance it for the devs when people talk about it.
I'm hesitant to do this as I simply don't yet understand how every activity actually works. Experiences.xml only sets (partially) how level up is applied. When and why is defined in a bunch of other scripts so there's a lot of code and testing I would have to go through as to not overly misrepresent findings.

I made the graph of auto trading and station managing as I am fairly confident in my understanding of the rates of those activities.
What do you expect from a Beta that lasted ONLY a week? This time Egosoft has outdone theirselves
MHDriver
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Re: Skill and training Feedback - Improved in 3.10 beta 1.

Post by MHDriver »

dtpsprt wrote: Fri, 10. Apr 20, 01:01
surferx wrote: Thu, 9. Apr 20, 15:08

P.S. I found a 4 star Pilot on a station (4,5 piloting - 4 Morale - 3,5 Engineering - 3 Management - 2,5 Boarding) for 90+ MILLIONS are we serious?
Wait, you found this 5* pilot on a station and it can be hired for 90 mil +/-? Didn't ES say earlier in this thread that it wasn't supposed to be about credits or did I miss something in the translation??
dtpsprt
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Re: Skill and training Feedback - Improved in 3.10 beta 1.

Post by dtpsprt »

MHDriver wrote: Fri, 10. Apr 20, 01:08
Wait, you found this 5* pilot on a station and it can be hired for 90 mil +/-? Didn't ES say earlier in this thread that it wasn't supposed to be about credits or did I miss something in the translation??
Yep... on a Split station in my Split start as underdog looking for a cheap pilot so I could get hold of an incapacitated Mamba and 15K in my wallet...
Regardless of the financial condition that I was in... think of this.
90M is the cost of TWO fully equipped Battleships or 3 Destroyers...
If you equip them with 2 star captains (bought cheap and trained by you, while you raise the cash and reputation for the ships), wouldn't you be having a WAY more serious weapon around than one Battleship (add 40 more million) even with the best of captains? Not to mention that the COST of the Battleship was not factored in
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MegaJohnny
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Re: Skill and training Feedback - Improved in 3.10 beta 1.

Post by MegaJohnny »

I think it's because you still have to randomly find them on a station platform. It's intentionally less scaleable than if you could order pre-leveled crew in bulk on the ship order menu.

I do still think the crew gain rates should be increased significantly though, so it doesn't feel so hellish trying to train up an auto-trade pilot. I have a pilot who's just missing 1 point in Morale, and I just have no idea how to get them over the line.
Big_Gun
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Re: Skill and training Feedback - Improved in 3.10 beta 1.

Post by Big_Gun »

surferx wrote: Thu, 9. Apr 20, 15:08 My vote: Leave skill and training as is.
Can the game please be just a little bit challenging? Mods are available for the microwave generation who want to "finish" their game in a matter of a few days play then complain that there's nothing left to do.
I'm fine playing (and enjoying) the game for many months.
X4 is so much more immersive than the previous X series because of the many small touches and details just one of which is training your workers.
I dont think you can get level 3 pilots in a few days just trying to use the game as is without buying the new random NPC's. Even with SETA on.
You like playing with a broken system?
It was handled in X3 so much better than in X4.
I don't understand your logic here at all.
CaptainRAVE
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Re: Skill and training Feedback - Improved in 3.10 beta 1.

Post by CaptainRAVE »

dtpsprt wrote: Fri, 10. Apr 20, 01:01
surferx wrote: Thu, 9. Apr 20, 15:08 My vote: Leave skill and training as is.
Can the game please be just a little bit challenging? Mods are available for the microwave generation who want to "finish" their game in a matter of a few days play then complain that there's nothing left to do.
I'm fine playing (and enjoying) the game for many months.
X4 is so much more immersive than the previous X series because of the many small touches and details just one of which is training your workers.
Right... I DO happen to remember that in previous X series you started a trader in a single sector only, and it could trade only what was already know by you for that sector. Then, after time and successful trades, it could start expanding on neighbouring sectors gradually (1, then 2... up to 5) and after reaching that point for some time it could become a universal trader. So, this means that being stuck without trading options with a trader (except of blind trading without calculating profit or loss) after you have MANUALLY given him (and not only by seminars) his second star he will NEVER be able to trade on his own, even for a limited range of sectors.
THIS IS YOUR IMMERSION?

P.S. I found a 4 star Pilot on a station (4,5 piloting - 4 Morale - 3,5 Engineering - 3 Management - 2,5 Boarding) for 90+ MILLIONS are we serious?
And you didn’t snap up that 4 star pilot? That will only take a few hundred hours or so to make it worthwhile. And to think, Egosoft think we want this nonsense...

It’s actually embarrassing that they released this half fleshed out new system in a ‘final’ patch, but I guess we should expect this from them having seen 1.0 at release.
hc-9
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Re: Skill and training Feedback - Improved in 3.10 beta 1.

Post by hc-9 »

i find it more disturbing that they leave things in the game that still give you specialist captains (veteran marnines and service crew too) mostly easy like the argon war missions with the magnetar or the Paranid ones but leave out the split .... (or atleast i didnt see any missions regarding getting a miner in 20h)

tbh i would love more missions / rewards like here have a ship and crew.
Tharrg
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Re: Skill and training Feedback - Improved in 3.10 beta 1.

Post by Tharrg »

CBJ wrote: Wed, 1. Apr 20, 13:30 We will continue to iterate on this feature
[rant]
Please think before you do this. Change causes disruption. Ever time this feature changes, every help guide on crew promotions becomes (more) obsolete. No one bothers to update the wiki with transitory information, so we have a one-line in the changelog, and maybe a quick sketch by a developer buried 10 pages deep in some thread.

So no one knows what is going on.

There will always be people complaining that they don't like the way it is implemented. You can never stop that so don't bother.
[/rant]

What I want:

* Fix on an implementation; it doesn't matter much what.
* Document it - probably in the wiki. Make it obvious to cope with all the misinformation now around the web due to constant change.
* Make sure it works how it is documented.
* Then leave alone except to fix bugs, unless absolutely necessary.
pref
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Re: Skill and training Feedback - Improved in 3.10 beta 1.

Post by pref »

I understand the original aim, to have another aspect where progress can be made, one that takes long time so people with 100s hours in their game still have something to achieve.

But what causes this problem is rather the possibility to acquire anything in the game extremely quickly.
I mean things like possibility to board L/XL class ships in starting ship, difference in margin for normal trading and ship production, very rapid reputation increase etc.
That train is gone though, not possible to make substantial balancing changes after release.

But to make this work NPC skills should allow extra features, not just be a cheap limiter for accessing preexisting mandatory features.
Really, i could imagine tons of things that require no substantial dev work but provide bonuses that are worth the effort or at least block features that are absolutely not required during gameplay.

couple examples
- working with other race ships/equipment
- slightly accelerated or targeted skill gains for crew (what pilot has on 5*)
- increased crew capacity
- crew transfer without docking
- range modifier (scanner and attack/evade)
- increased trade range so at 5* they get close to be able to trade across the whole universe
- some slight dps modifier with 4* on 100%, 5% on 103% or such (any param from turret rotation to actual bullet damage that is easy to alter based on pilot)

Of course implementing more features and bind those to skills would be the best solution.
There could easily be trade scripts with a different mindset then autotraders - like CAG and CLS which all had their specific usaceses that still exist but is real hard to manage now.
Or more complex defence scripts that prioritise targets over several sectors and let player set priorities,
Or any of the 1000s of bettter ideas then i have :D
dtpsprt
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Re: Skill and training Feedback - Improved in 3.10 beta 1.

Post by dtpsprt »

I really wonder how easy or difficult would be the return to a tested, trusted and documented skill system...
A) Two classes of pilots (because they are really different in skillset)
1. Fighter Pilots. Skill and morale gained in combat, patrol, stationed in a Defence Station for support and policeing.
2. Commercial pilots, skill gained by trade routes or mining expeditions. Skill and morale by profit in trade routes and time to fill cargo bay for miners.
B) Marines. Enough said. Their skill advances only in action (boarding) and their morale advances by success on said action or decreases in time of non action/failure.
For this reason there should be always a mix 1/6 Veterans/Rookies.
C) Engineers. Skill and morale increases by successful ship/station repairs
D) Station Managers. Skill and morale increases only when station makes profit.

They all start as rookies, just able to perform their skills. For traders a restriction to 3 systems for start and miners to 2 advancing with skills

Seems more real life to me and the Pilot mechanics existed in all X2+ games, X3 even had the "revolution" that we were able to transfer a Universal Trader from one ship to another...

Of course it does not take a lifetime for their skills to become good. Devs please don't forget that you may live off the game but customers have jobs or schools to attend or else they can not afford the money to buy your game (upgrading their computers in the process) or get good school grades to get it as a present from the working parent/supervisor, so time is important and cannot be too long. I'd say a max of 8 hours of game play for one click of advance, or decrease (in the cases that apply).

Does all or any of this makes sense or am I just adding wear and tear to my keyboard?
Rakoczy84
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Re: Skill and training Feedback - Improved in 3.10 beta 1.

Post by Rakoczy84 »

.....No comment.....

Image
Last edited by Rakoczy84 on Fri, 10. Apr 20, 19:32, edited 1 time in total.
tomchk
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Re: Skill and training Feedback - Improved in 3.10 beta 1.

Post by tomchk »

pref wrote: Fri, 10. Apr 20, 14:36 But to make this work NPC skills should allow extra features, not just be a cheap limiter for accessing preexisting mandatory features.
Really, i could imagine tons of things that require no substantial dev work but provide bonuses that are worth the effort or at least block features that are absolutely not required during gameplay.

couple examples
- working with other race ships/equipment
- slightly accelerated or targeted skill gains for crew (what pilot has on 5*)
- increased crew capacity
- crew transfer without docking
- range modifier (scanner and attack/evade)
- increased trade range so at 5* they get close to be able to trade across the whole universe
- some slight dps modifier with 4* on 100%, 5% on 103% or such (any param from turret rotation to actual bullet damage that is easy to alter based on pilot)
Great ideas!
Care to see what I've been creating? https://www.youtube.com/user/ytubrute
tomchk
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Re: Skill and training Feedback - Improved in 3.10 beta 1.

Post by tomchk »

Rakoczy84 wrote: Fri, 10. Apr 20, 16:31 .....No comment.....

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ ... 96036B589/
I've heard someone like that could basically capture entire L ships by himself because boarding stars are so effective. It seems like a bargain to me, although deliberately not affordable for those of us that started a new game recently.
Care to see what I've been creating? https://www.youtube.com/user/ytubrute
pref
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Re: Skill and training Feedback - Improved in 3.10 beta 1.

Post by pref »

tomchk wrote: Fri, 10. Apr 20, 17:04
Rakoczy84 wrote: Fri, 10. Apr 20, 16:31 .....No comment.....

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ ... 96036B589/
I've heard someone like that could basically capture entire L ships by himself because boarding stars are so effective. It seems like a bargain to me, although deliberately not affordable for those of us that started a new game recently.
I bet you'd need 100s if not 1000s of ops to get a maxed marine.
Also spend a bill on marines like this and you can get carriers only using an M ship. That's how skills should generally work, providing QoL when it does not hurt balance any more.

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