Skill and training Feedback

[Gregorovitch]

Also Mackan found that miners rarely rank up either. They don’t gain any skills from mining only from the trading but because they end up doing “bad trades” (selling at a price the game deems mon profitable) results in miners levelling up very slowly. No XP from “bad trades” even though it’s all profits from a miners viewpoint.

Oh yeah, of course typically sector miners will fill up the stocks of refineries in their sectors and then the refineries will be paying min price for the ore, so......

[Maxumous]

Can I ask how you accumulated the data for that graph?

Mackan has just released a mod which sorts of cheats how pilots ranks up. Making them rank up faster. I suspect he is been going through the scripts to see what needs to be changed for the mod. He is currently working to implement a more non cheat way of levelling them up.

Also Mackan found that miners rarely rank up either. They don’t gain any skills from mining only from the trading but because they end up doing “bad trades” (selling at a price the game deems mon profitable) results in miners levelling up very slowly. No XP from “bad trades” even though it’s all profits from a miners viewpoint.

Edit: viewtopic.php?f=181&t=424312 link to the mod

This is not game-play, I been so wanting to figure out a way forward to this solution, but the only way I could think of is :-

Egosoft I think this maybe a way forward to the problem :-
Own player stations Manager training up Piloting Skills for each job completed, opening up a better range of gates. This will help the making billions to quick.
Each station manager will tell the pilot to go to collect or deliver what they need, Manager gives the Ranks gaining program to the pilot, for each task they do they earn points to gain in there ranks, this will show a Percentage to there next rank.
I Think the showing of a Ranking improvement is most defiantly needed in the game. This will also help miners, to gain pilot skill.

Personally I am making millions with 35 Sector Miners and gaining Rep with Factions.

[Gregorovitch]

Personally I am making millions with 35 Sector Miners and gaining Rep with Factions.

Same here. Mine have easily made enough for me to have my first complex in build right now and my rep with ARG and ANT is 20+ because of them.

[Maxumous]

Personally I am making millions with 35 Sector Miners and gaining Rep with Factions.

Same here. Mine have easily made enough for me to have my first complex in build right now and my rep with ARG and ANT is 20+ because of them.

Correct so way forward to this is Building stations and making your own Production line of weapons, start off by build water, food ration, medial supplies, this will help in productivity for further growth of your empire.
Then start developing forward to making other stuff for the production of missiles and ships building for HQ. This is a way forward in the game. If you just want a quick and easy life then use mods, if you want management and strategy of building your own empire then this is the approach to the game.

Seta is not a cheat its within that Game structure of all X series, you use Seta to help speed process up I.e stations construction.

[surferx]

My vote: Leave skill and training as is.
Can the game please be just a little bit challenging? Mods are available for the microwave generation who want to "finish" their game in a matter of a few days play then complain that there's nothing left to do.
I'm fine playing (and enjoying) the game for many months.
X4 is so much more immersive than the previous X series because of the many small touches and details just one of which is training your workers.

[LameFox]

What's the challenge, though?

To me it looks like options are just:
-ignore skill entirely since it won't happen organically, build empire without the commands locked behind it.
-drudge through mission after mission after mission after mission for seminars. Your mileage may vary but these are not, in my experience, difficult at all.
-tediously hire skilled individuals one by one and swap them out with the mandatory pilot your ships come with, each time you build one that needs skill.

Maybe I'm missing something hard to do that should be on this list.

[Mackan]

Also Mackan found that miners rarely rank up either. They don’t gain any skills from mining only from the trading but because they end up doing “bad trades” (selling at a price the game deems mon profitable) results in miners levelling up very slowly. No XP from “bad trades” even though it’s all profits from a miners viewpoint.

Miners are actually supposed to be gaining experience from mining, but it seems all kinds of broken right now:

Code: Select all

      <do_if value="not this.assignedcontrolled.cargo.{$ware}.free and (this.assignedcontrolled.cargo.{$ware}.max - $startcapacity)">
        <!-- we have duration, amount collected, max capacity. nothing sensible and consistent to compare duration with so sticking with amount. useful since ratio between amount collected and max capacity can be influenced. -->
        <set_value name="$XP_factor" exact="[(this.assignedcontrolled.cargo.{$ware}.max - $startcapacity)f / [(this.assignedcontrolled.cargo.{$ware}.max)f, 1.0].max, 1.0].min"/>
        <debug_text text="'applying mining XP. factor: %s, start capacity: %s, max capacity: %s'.[$XP_factor, $startcapacity, this.assignedcontrolled.cargo.{$ware}.max]" chance="$debugchance"/>

        <apply_experience entity="this" experience="'ship_mine_full'" factor="$XP_factor"/>
        <apply_experience object="this.assignedcontrolled" role="entityrole.service" experience="'ship_mine_full'" factor="$XP_factor"/>
      </do_if>

There are two conditions for applying mining experience. The first one is for the cargo to be full, which is fine. The second condition however is for (max capacity - start capacity) to return non-zero. Which it won't do if the cargo was empty at start of mining. Don't know why there's an if-statement at all though, seems unnecessary considering how factor is handled.

Next problem is the factor. The idea seems to be to lower the level up chance based on start capacity. So if mining was started with empty cargo, chance factor would be 100%. If cargo was half full, chance factor would be 50% etc. Right now the code does the exact opposite. It's set to ((max capacity - start capacity) / max capacity). This has the funny effect of increasing level up chance the less resources the miner mined. It's probably supposed to be (start capacity / max capacity) instead, someone just made a mistake.

Just a question would help with this as well. There any chance you be willing to expand this to say all the different behaviors?

Might give people a chance to try new ones out but maybe even also find some better methods or help balance it for the devs when people talk about it.

I'm hesitant to do this as I simply don't yet understand how every activity actually works. Experiences.xml only sets (partially) how level up is applied. When and why is defined in a bunch of other scripts so there's a lot of code and testing I would have to go through as to not overly misrepresent findings.

I made the graph of auto trading and station managing as I am fairly confident in my understanding of the rates of those activities.

[Axeface]

My vote: Leave skill and training as is.
Can the game please be just a little bit challenging? Mods are available for the microwave generation who want to "finish" their game in a matter of a few days play then complain that there's nothing left to do.
I'm fine playing (and enjoying) the game for many months.
X4 is so much more immersive than the previous X series because of the many small touches and details just one of which is training your workers.

Just wanting to understand what you are saying. You are happy that its not possible for captains to ever level to 3 stars on their own, requiring player input of seminars to get them to 3 and higher?

[Cormyr]

Miners are actually supposed to be gaining experience from mining, but it seems all kinds of broken right now:

Big if true. This explains everything. No wonder my damn miners won't level up - even after 10 hours of gameplay. Please devs, fix this asap.

[Bubonosaure]

Personally I am making millions with 35 Sector Miners and gaining Rep with Factions.

Same here. Mine have easily made enough for me to have my first complex in build right now and my rep with ARG and ANT is 20+ because of them.

Correct so way forward to this is Building stations and making your own Production line of weapons, start off by build water, food ration, medial supplies, this will help in productivity for further growth of your empire.
Then start developing forward to making other stuff for the production of missiles and ships building for HQ. This is a way forward in the game. If you just want a quick and easy life then use mods, if you want management and strategy of building your own empire then this is the approach to the game.

Seta is not a cheat its within that Game structure of all X series, you use Seta to help speed process up I.e stations construction.

Nah, food and medical supply are fairly pointless early on as they don't help the economy withstand Xenon onslaught while bringing minimal profit. Go for Refined metal/Silicon whaffers that you can quickly upgrade into hull part factory/Smart chips factories. This will sell like hot cakes while helping new stations build up and help faction keep the fire of war alive which, in turn, means more profit for all your supply chain. It will also help you build your next station at a much lower cost thanks to hull parts. Then you can start to worry about setting up a small workforce supply chain.

While you rake the dough, buy yourself a large freighter filled with marines, go in a neutral territory and start hijacking everything. L freighters can be used to move big supplies around the map to avoid bottlenecks or be sold (remember to sell their consummables first), destroyers are very important to start helping out factions. Xenons are no joke and should be fully capable of cleaning up entire sectors at this point. Meanwhile, you should be working your way towards claytronics module to drive down the building cost even further. They're also extremely profitable.

That's the way I proceed, at least.

[Mackan]

Big if true. This explains everything. No wonder my damn miners won't level up - even after 10 hours of gameplay. Please devs, fix this asap.

Even if this was fixed, miners would still be very unlikely to level past 2 stars.

[j.harshaw]

The second condition however is for (max capacity - start capacity) to return non-zero. Which it won't do if the cargo was empty at start of mining.

Correct. Thanks for spotting this. Fixed in a future update.

Don't know why there's an if-statement at all though, seems unnecessary considering how factor is handled.

Because this particular experience gain is for ships mining a cargo hold full of $ware.

Next problem is the factor. The idea seems to be to lower the level up chance based on start capacity. So if mining was started with empty cargo, chance factor would be 100%.

Would be 0, actually, for the same reason you stated above. Although it wouldn't get in here in the first place because of that if condition.

If you want to play around with it with your mod, $startcapacity is effectively the amount of $ware that was collected at that point in the script. So the condition should simply be:

<do_if value="not this.assignedcontrolled.cargo.{$ware}.free and $startcapacity">

and the factor calc should be:

<set_value name="$XP_factor" exact="[($startcapacity)f / [(this.assignedcontrolled.cargo.{$ware}.max)f, 1.0].max, 1.0].min"/>

Anyway, fixed in a future update. Thanks again for spotting this.

[tomchk]

The second condition however is for (max capacity - start capacity) to return non-zero. Which it won't do if the cargo was empty at start of mining.

Correct. Thanks for spotting this. Fixed in a future update.

Sweet! Thanks for watching this thread closely!

[Mackan]

Anyway, fixed in a future update. Thanks again for spotting this.

Awesome, thanks for the swift response!

[Maxumous]

Same here. Mine have easily made enough for me to have my first complex in build right now and my rep with ARG and ANT is 20+ because of them.

Correct so way forward to this is Building stations and making your own Production line of weapons, start off by build water, food ration, medial supplies, this will help in productivity for further growth of your empire.
Then start developing forward to making other stuff for the production of missiles and ships building for HQ. This is a way forward in the game. If you just want a quick and easy life then use mods, if you want management and strategy of building your own empire then this is the approach to the game.

Seta is not a cheat its within that Game structure of all X series, you use Seta to help speed process up I.e stations construction.

Nah, food and medical supply are fairly pointless early on as they don't help the economy withstand Xenon onslaught while bringing minimal profit. Go for Refined metal/Silicon whaffers that you can quickly upgrade into hull part factory/Smart chips factories. This will sell like hot cakes while helping new stations build up and help faction keep the fire of war alive which, in turn, means more profit for all your supply chain. It will also help you build your next station at a much lower cost thanks to hull parts. Then you can start to worry about setting up a small workforce supply chain.

While you rake the dough, buy yourself a large freighter filled with marines, go in a neutral territory and start hijacking everything. L freighters can be used to move big supplies around the map to avoid bottlenecks or be sold (remember to sell their consummables first), destroyers are very important to start helping out factions. Xenons are no joke and should be fully capable of cleaning up entire sectors at this point. Meanwhile, you should be working your way towards claytronics module to drive down the building cost even further. They're also extremely profitable.

That's the way I proceed, at least.

I think you need to understand what are medical supplies and Food Rations mean, this is a positive move at the beginning, why you say. well with out them you production rate is slower and then you need to buy them for stations for your people. So yeah Food Rations and Medial supplies are essential at the start giving you a boost to all stations you own in productivity. You got to think of not loosing money but gaining profit. I wasn't talking about other factions, this is essential for your on empire.

[Matthew94]

My vote: Leave skill and training as is.
Can the game please be just a little bit challenging? Mods are available for the microwave generation who want to "finish" their game in a matter of a few days play then complain that there's nothing left to do.

If it's left as it is then there's no point having the system as most players will barely see any level-ups in dozens of hours of play.
Whether it needs to be changed is not the debate.

"It doesn't bother me personally so therefore the system is working fine and not only that, you're actually immature for wanting it to work".

I'm glad we have you here to provide such stellar analysis.

[StoneLegionYT]

My vote: Leave skill and training as is.
Can the game please be just a little bit challenging? Mods are available for the microwave generation who want to "finish" their game in a matter of a few days play then complain that there's nothing left to do.
I'm fine playing (and enjoying) the game for many months.
X4 is so much more immersive than the previous X series because of the many small touches and details just one of which is training your workers.

Let me guess you play with Seta and then as for a challenge.... You Save Scum and Ask for a challenge....

You need to find your challenges in the correct area's not the wrong ones.

[zakaluka]

I'm not so fussed about training in 3.10, but it would be nice if I didn't have to individually open the information pane on each ship / station to see how my pilots and managers are progressing.

Main map overview page and "property owned" screen should display a pilot's piloting / morale scores next to each ship. Also each manager's management / morale scores, next to each station. There's enough room in the display to add those with no fuss.

[Maxumous]

I'm not so fussed about training in 3.10, but it would be nice if I didn't have to individually open the information pane on each ship / station to see how my pilots and managers are progressing.

Main map overview page and "property owned" screen should display a pilot's piloting / morale scores next to each ship. Also each manager's management / morale scores, next to each station. There's enough room in the display to add those with no fuss.

To be honest that seem like a good Idea, you shouldn't really need to find out what you pilots skills are on each ship, simple layout on property owned would be a god scent, got to admit that would be nice additive or even a pilot roaster of all your ships with all there ranking.

[tomchk]

There is a crew roster under the Empire menu, but I don't think you can do much with it, like give seminars. I need to check again.