XR vs X4

[caleb]

This is the exact same discussion we started having when they announced XR, and they gave us... Well, that...

We discussed endlessly about homeworld-style fleet control, and many other things, and it amounted to nothing. So don't get your hopes up too much.

[BigBANGtheory]

I have might have mentioned the importance of fleet control prior to release possibly going back to X3:R wasn't wrong then, still very relevant 10yrs on and yes I'd like to see that addressed in the next product.

[Toramo]

Well, IMO X series is dead with XR.

I bought the game, I played 10 hours. All the gameplay mechanics are bad compared to what was the older X...
Yes, they solved a tons of bugs, yes, they added contents, but it is impossible to change their broken gameplay mechanics.

Egosoft always follow their product and at the end make it to work, that's a really good point, but they can't change the foundation of a game.

X4 ?
I wish, I hope, I... pray ... for a big X return ! A true sandbox spacesim thoughts for Space fanboy. Not an arcade game like this XR... X was a management game, not a all-in-one-ship game. It looks crazy for me to hear that XR still not provide a true fleet management for example...

XR was outdated as soon as it was released, it brings absolutely nothing new to the space opera gender. And worse, a lot of newcomers was disappointed...

Elite is so much more innovative compared to X (SC will be too).
Ship steering and customization is amazing, navigation is really fine too compared to the freelancer "highways" (and IMO the highways was better in freelancer than XR)

Yes Elite have others problems inherent to its multiplayer nature (poor mission system, grinding/farm system only...). We still don't have our Citizen Kane space game (ok except kerbal ^^ but it is something different)

X4 should be the SOLO SPaceSIM we are all waiting for. I don't know how, I don't know when but the only thing I'm pretty sure about is that it must be very different than XR. The game is not deep enough and the gameplay mechanics are too simple and boring. The game should have some 'step'. First pilot your only ship, do mission, start trading, buy other ships start to automatize things and at the end manage your empire (and still be able to do whatever you want to). On X3 you had this choice, not on XR IMO.

Egosoft wanted to hit a large amount of players with their XR, shiny graphism (well personnally I still prefer X3 one) and with the hype of their ex-community they were able to transform the XR release into a "Huge success", at least commercially. After that we all knows the story.

To be honest, I don't know why I am writing something like that here...
Maybe because I still trust in them...

Anyway, good fly ! For those who still play X.
This series is still a parts of my gamer life.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

Elite is so much more innovative compared to X (SC will be too).

I totally disagree, they both have positives and negatives (neither is particularly innovative IMO). In addition, comparing them directly is a bit like comparing chalk and cheese (same applies to $C).

In simplistic terms...

Elite is focused on you as a player being a pilot of a ship in a massive but procedurally generated MMO-capable and politically dynamic universe. You can own multiple ships but only utilise/benefit from one of them at any given time.

X-Rebirth is (effectively) focused on you as a player being an owner of a company with employees and assets in a single player universe. You can own multiple ships and stations and have your employees control them on your behalf while you travel the universe in your own ship.

They are both good games IMO but effectively addressing different audiences.

[Earth Ultimatum IV.]

First pilot your only ship, do mission, start trading, buy other ships start to automatize things and at the end manage your empire (and still be able to do whatever you want to). On X3 you had this choice, not on XR IMO.

What?
You're joking, right?
Like, that really isn't what I've been doing in XR for most of time, for those 500 hours or so. Doing missions to get some money and upgrade ship at the beginning, getting traders and trade agent network and trading while mapping zones and doing missions, then building stations and making supplying/selling automatic, expanding, while still doing my personal stuff most of time.

[MegaJohnny]

Egosoft always follow their product and at the end make it to work, that's a really good point, but they can't change the foundation of a game.

That's why I'm interested to see what they do for the next game. Presumably they couldn't overhaul that much because of savegame compatibility, breaking a ton of mods, etc.

I just hope they don't go for the controller/minigame-heavy audience again. I could do without more scanning minigame, talking minigame, hacking minigame... Well, the mining minigame is actually pretty cool, so that can stay.

[Nanook]

X3 had no pathing algorithms... that was the point CBJ was making... X-Rebirth ADDED them. ...

Yeah, I think he knew that. He's saying all that X3 needed was to add some pathing algorithms to what was already there, and use the combination of point-to-point and pathing, as appropriate. At least, that's what I read.

And I think CBJ clearly explained that they were unable to do so to the old X-Trilogy engine.....

And we knew that and weren't referring to the old engine. The point was that the new engine could've been used to create a new X game along the lines of the previous ones, but with a lot more features, including pathing.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

X3 had no pathing algorithms... that was the point CBJ was making... X-Rebirth ADDED them. ...

Yeah, I think he knew that. He's saying all that X3 needed was to add some pathing algorithms to what was already there, and use the combination of point-to-point and pathing, as appropriate. At least, that's what I read.

And I think CBJ clearly explained that they were unable to do so to the old X-Trilogy engine.....

And we knew that and weren't referring to the old engine. The point was that the new engine could've been used to create a new X game along the lines of the previous ones, but with a lot more features, including pathing.

We are starting to re-tread old arguments here which has never ended well in the past. The reality of the situation is we got what we got, and no amount of navel gazing is going to change that simple fact nor is it really likely to change Egosoft's on-going plans. Based on what they have said publicly to date, we know they are heading in the direction of the hypothetical X4 feature set (notionally plus bits) with the on-going development of X-Rebirth (and it's notional sequels).

WRT pathing and AI in general, taking into consideration what X3 did and trying to replicate it would be a retrograde step rather than a forward looking one. I think we all agree things need to improve, but IMO it needs to continue from the foundations we currently have in X-Rebirth and build "appropriately" on it. I don't have the answers on what form the improvements should take, but I am positive about the form it should not.

[XenonSurf]

I just hope they don't go for the controller/minigame-heavy audience again.

OOooh no, there will be still a minigame...it will last 30 seconds longer and you'll have to do a belly dance around your computer to succeed

Seriously, I hope that if at all they chose to keep a sorta minigame, it will then be of *intelligent* challenge, maybe a puzzled mission or alike. I feel that the current mouse-reflex minigame is only an excuse to visit stations.
The purpose of minigame is to randomize your success, problem is depending on your hardware you get trained fast so you succeed or fail all the time, and therefore: a pure time waster.
Something where you don't know if you succed or fail - and challenging, this would be a good minigame. I have no ideas though

XenonS

[XenonSurf]

Oh, I just have an idea about a good minigame, but it will involve other good features as well.

For one, A worshop, 'garage' or whatever you call it should be on any station where you could upgrade/change your ship(s). Then, as a minigame, what about searching for some needed upgrade items on the station - but in a challenging way of course, not just a "search and find the item" thing

For two, 'challenging' would in this case also mean that stations must be different, not just filled with some inactive NPCs. I mean some real FPS actions inside like beeing equiped with hand arms and confronting enemies. Yeah, yeah, that's asking a lot, but then: I care about real *improvements*, ok? This would change X4 to some real immersion, I'm sure.

XenonS

[gbjbaanb]

Oh, I just have an idea about a good minigame, but it will involve other good features as well.

For one, A worshop, 'garage' or whatever you call it should be on any station where you could upgrade/change your ship(s). Then, as a minigame, what about searching for some needed upgrade items on the station - but in a challenging way of course, not just a "search and find the item" thing

For two, 'challenging' would in this case also mean that stations must be different, not just filled with some inactive NPCs. I mean some real FPS actions inside like beeing equiped with hand arms and confronting enemies. Yeah, yeah, that's asking a lot, but then: I care about real *improvements*, ok? This would change X4 to some real immersion, I'm sure.

XenonS

I doubt it - they asimply do not have the manpower to create true FPS immersion, hence the pitiful attempts at the in-person parts of XR. What any of this would mean is less time spent making the bits we really want (and need). The only thing to do here is scrap the FPS aspects completely and work on the good bits, the bits that made X3 something we;'re still banging on about years after XR was released!

[XenonSurf]

I doubt it - they asimply do not have the manpower to create true FPS immersion, hence the pitiful attempts at the in-person parts of XR. What any of this would mean is less time spent making the bits we really want (and need). The only thing to do here is scrap the FPS aspects completely and work on the good bits, the bits that made X3 something we;'re still banging on about years after XR was released!

This is the second time today that shows my lack of knowledge about X3 (or anterior X titles). Will have to get indepth in X3 which I own for years but only barely played. Maybe TC? Thanks to point me. I want to better understand XR feature requests, I've been playing it with enthusiasm for more than 60 days now.
I greatly agree that a stronger engine for XR which makes a good power reserve for the future is my strongest wish indeed.
My above suggestion is more a dream than a realistic foresight

XenonS

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

I disagree with the principle of completely scrapping FP mode as it currently is at least a sound basis for future work whether done by the community or Egosoft themselves but I do agree with the principle of ensuring FP mode is not required for normal gameplay (which pretty much applies to the current state of play).

X-Rebirth was always pitched as being a restart of the series as opposed to a sequel and while there are some features from the X-Trilogy I would personally like to see added to X-Rebirth (or its sequels) there are other aspects I would rather were left behind.

I would expect the experience of the X-Rebirth sequels to eventually surpass our expectations of the hypothetical X4 and I will be pleasantly surprised if the next game hits the comparative X-BTF to X2 level of progression. I would certainly not expect it to compare directly with X3, but until Egosoft formally announce the next title and it's feature set we will not know how much progress there will be.

[Gligli]

I disagree with the principle of completely scrapping FP (...)

It seems obvious to me, as it represent (minigame include) a non-negligible part of the engine now. And though non-negligible part of future work...

If it's a mess actually, imo, it only due to a use-proportion. I mean, on quite every station dialogue, its a bit excessive
For "mechanical/Engineering" instance such as piracy, its welcome, imo. Maybe fewer if you are a huge pirate
That could change to a "1 dice throw" to represent your mood when entering a station i.e...Or less, to represent your day chance...
Even better: Adjust yourself the amount of minigame with a 0-9 cursor in the game options
I like the Garage/Shop idea

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

@Gigli: FP mode and mini-game/small talk are separate concerns, the mini-game is used for more than just Small Talk which is dependent on FP mode and not the other way round.

I do generally agree with the position that the mini-game is probably an overused mechanic in X-Rebirth and while it seems fitting for hacking type tasks it seems a poor choice for resolving Small Talk in a notionally skill-based way (which I believe was the intent). However, I do not have any better ideas to replace it if that intent is to continue to be a part of this series. The small talk rewards should probably not be exclusive to Small Talk though regardless (at least IMO).

The presence of the FP mode capability in general opens up some opportunities such as the Capital Ship Bridge mod. As I understand it from various posts over the past year or so, Egosoft may be intending to release their own take on that concept at some point in the future.

[Gligli]

@Gigli: FP mode and mini-game/small talk are separate concerns, the mini-game is used for more than just Small Talk which is dependent on FP mode and not the other way round.

Sure, reason why they can't be wiped without true waste.

(...) However, I do not have any better ideas to replace it if that intent is to continue to be a part of this series.

- "Out of hull" activities
- asteroids/wrecks or long range scanning enquiries
- Boarding or whatever-PNJ personal assistance
- Phantom stations/Vessels
- Station personal very specific maintenance
... Or I didn't get you?

The small talk rewards should probably not be exclusive to Small Talk though regardless (at least IMO).

sure

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

@Gligli: You did not get the point I was getting at... FP mode adds value to the game even if it stays in it's current vanilla X-Rebirth form (c/f the Capital Ship Bridge mod).

I get that some people do not like FP mode in this type of game, but we have it now and there is no good reason to remove the capability as I see it. That is not to say I think all space games should have an FP mode, there is no point to adding it to Elite: Dangerous for instance, but since X-Rebirth includes the concept of NPC employees it does make at least some sense to have it.

Egosoft can still implement other functionality while retaining the FP mode capability but there are some small improvements to the FP mode that I think at least some of us would like to see (e.g. Egosoft's version of a proper Capital Ship Bridge).

[Nanook]

I agree with Roger that FP mode is a valuable part of the game. What stuns me, though, is the way it was implemented, ala the various traders on the stations. I just don't understand why they are all portrayed and placed as a bunch of vagrants and malingerers. The right way to handle traders is to fix them to the stations and give each and every one a shop, counter or some other kind of kiosk. If you did this, there would be no need for those immersion-killing icons over each one's head, because you could have shopfront signs indicating what was being traded.

Leave the various hirelings and the black marketeers as randomly placed NPC's, but without the icons. Make it so the player has to open a conversation with them to find out who they are. That would make the stations much livelier and more immersive, for what I'd say is very little effort on the part of the devs. In short, there's a lot of positive things that can be done with FP mode if the devs want to put a little more effort into it and it would greatly improve the game IMO. As it stands right now, I'd have to say there are more negatives than positives in the current FP mode.

[A5PECT]

Re: Single player ship vs. multiple player ship options.

I freely admit that ships in previous games were mostly stat-shifts as far as the player was concerned. But even if that system was shallow, it was still a source of variety that I enjoyed. I'm reluctant to say that what XR offers in exchange for the removal of multiple player ship options hasn't come out as a net positive.

For now.

I'd like to emphasize "net positive." There are things I like about the new concepts and features about XR's player ship concept. The Skunk has far more depth than any individual ship in the original X trilogy. There's a legitimate sense of (slightly) branching customization to it, rather than objective and perfectly linear upgrades.

If the sequel to XR builds upon this those strengths, and adds even only a handful of player ship choices, those few, deeply designed ships will be worth far more than the hundreds of stat-shifts in X3AP. At least for me.

[gbjbaanb]

Re: Single player ship vs. multiple player ship options.

I freely admit that ships in previous games were mostly stat-shifts as far as the player was concerned. But even if that system was shallow, it was still a source of variety that I enjoyed. I'm reluctant to say that what XR offers in exchange for the removal of multiple player ship options hasn't come out as a net positive.

For now.

I'd like to emphasize "net positive." There are things I like about the new concepts and features about XR's player ship concept. The Skunk has far more depth than any individual ship in the original X trilogy. There's a legitimate sense of (slightly) branching customization to it, rather than objective and perfectly linear upgrades.

If the sequel to XR builds upon this those strengths, and adds even only a handful of player ship choices, those few, deeply designed ships will be worth far more than the hundreds of stat-shifts in X3AP. At least for me.

I disagree for the simple reason that no amount of different seating positions and window pipes makes up for the fundamental aspect of X3: that of the player's own imagination. Because the ships were just views out of the cockpit with just a hint of the ship underneath, the player was left to imagine what he was flying, and that is way more powerful for immersion than anything egosoft could create (unless they want to bring round a truck with fully-built cockpits with VR displays

There tends to be 2 extremes - nothing and everything, anything in between tends to be as dissatisfying as computer representations of people's faces: you either have real people, or you have blocky, obviously computer generated ones. Those generated images that try to be realistic always fail. Same with this, if you can't go full-on, then don't try.