Round 4 of Would you use Steam for Rebirth thread

[Shimrod]

I think this thread succeeded a long time ago in raising to the developers agenda that Steamworks is unwelcome in some quarters of the community.

However beyond that first week where the degree of discontent appeared to take the developer by surprise and brought input from Bernd, I believe the developer has long since tuned out of the issue and that the Steamworks policy will not be changing no matter what we write in this thread.

So before this post becomes buried under the ongoing debate, I wanted to raise the question of the value of continued protest within this particular thread. If we agree that policy change will not be effected, then we are faced with a decision: commit to building a game collection linked to Steamworks online accounts, or do not buy Steamworks games.

Perhaps it is time to take that decision: buy in or look for a new hobby and move on.

[Nagittchi]

Actually, Egosoft changed their patching method from AP, so updates no longer overwrite installed mods. Patches can still cause issues, but nothing that can't be easily fixed.

If mod support can improve from TC to AP while being based in Steam then there's nothing stopping Rebirth from being just as if not even more mod-friendly.

How exactly? They don't use .cat/.dat anymore?

[Jumee]

How exactly? They don't use .cat/.dat anymore?

they do, but instead of creating new cat/dat with every patch they just modify the 2nd one, so it does not overwrite your mods

[Alan Phipps]

In the cause of evenhandedness towards those with slower connectivity, I must point out that the downside of maintaining such a cat/dat overwrite policy just to safeguard false patch mods is that every X3AP update requires a 12Mb+ download even for a relatively small change.

It would therefore make sense to do this for a major or added content patch, but perhaps give some users a bit of a download burden if used just for a small addition or bugfix.

Exactly in what way X-Rebirth will be updated or be likely to be modded is yet to be announced though.

EDIT: Ooops. An order out. I meant 12Mb+ not 12 Gb+ ! Thanks Jumee.

[Jumee]

well the combined size of 1st and 2nd cat/dat pairs is 287 mb so it is not that much... especially compared to XRM I have on higher numbers which is 651 mb so in my case it is better to re-download the original pairs then to have to re-download XRM, but of course what you area saying is also correct and makes perfect sense (after all it is probably a good idea to not delete the mods after you download them )

[David Howland]

You put a position most of us recognised from the beginning of the thread Shimrod, as you say there was never a lot of hope of changing the ES mindset. I will however put some reasons why the debate should continue as long as it is allowed:
1. Many players believe X is the best Space sim. on the market, most of us are addicts that cannot start another hobby while we have a computer to play on and breath in our bodies. If you are fortunate enough that X is just a hobby then moving on may be your best option but for us addicts, if barred from future X will play the old games and MOAN.
2. If a market demands for long enough ES may relent EVENTUALLY? After all previous X games had steam on the disks and it was removed later. AP has a Steam disk but a patch has been released to get rid of it. Although these options are not possible with RB, if ES can be convinced 1 or 2 years on, that a further 50% market is there for a no-steam version who is to say they will not go for it? After all their coffers will be swollen from RB sales and developing a steam free RB would cost less and launch quicker than developing a completely new game. Remember if the demand is there and ES will not supply it there is a huge fakes industry in the far East that could produce unrestricted versions?
3. You are assuming ES have gone DRM exclusive for good. ES have not stated this, they may be producing RB as a steam only game, intending to return to plural marketing for later games. If we do not continue to make our displeasure felt, why should ES ever produce disk versions ever again?
4. Internet gaming is all the rage now but all is not rosy on the internet? Reports have been stating the net is getting full up. As governments scratch their heads about how to increase capacity, there is no rush of internet companies opening their wallets to solve the problem. If internet use has to be rationed I can see gaming would not be viewed as a proper use of scarce internet capacity. DRM companies might become illegal and ES might have to sell their games on disks again! What goes around comes around!

[Slashman]

The whole thing could also be solved by releasing beta versions of patches as Bethesda started doing with Skyrim.

Have an opt-in for people who want to try it first and give the mod community time to update their mods to match before releasing it on the unsuspecting general public.

A patch tested that way gives an opportunity to fix problems with it before they become part of the standard game.

If they are going to go Steamworks...then at least use the advantages of the platform.

[quase]

I am not sure if I would be keen on public/open Beta testing for patches, but hey no risk no fun. I like to try out beta drivers for my graphics card, so why not beta patches for games.

Just to give another example of how I feel digital distribution is done right and because I think it is relevant as an example for the the whole gaming industry (although Egosoft had been generous to their users in the past as well of course).
Still, how about a free 10 GB update for the Witcher 2 bringing the PC game to the level of the upcoming expanded console release. Also the Witcher 2 Enhanced Special Edition will be made available for free for all owners of the other version of the game (namely retail and Steam) on GOG.com, so a DRM-free digital backup copy without paying for it. I am pretty sure that this level of customer support is unmatched, isn't it?

Also by the way, Fallout can be grabbed for free on GOG.com for the next 48 hours as a giveaway for the relaunch of platform GOG.com.

I would like to encourage Egosoft/ Deep Silver to join GOG.com as well, I would totally buy their games there rather than ever consider byuing them with Steam. Steam never, all systems gogogoGOG.com!
Even if they would choose to release their games years later on GOG.com, like Ubisoft now does with Assassins Creed and Heroes of Might&Magic 5 (DRM-free over GOG.com). Could Deep Silver not set a sign by releasing X Beyond the Frontier over GOG.com, so that desperate DRM-hardliners, like myself, can wait for a release of Rebirth over at GOG.com in the far distant future? I can wait, but screw you with account binding on Steam-exclusivity.

GOGOGOGOG.com, I just love these guys!
http://www.gog.com

[Slashman]

I am not sure if I would be keen on public/open Beta testing for patches, but hey no risk no fun. I like to try out beta drivers for my graphics card, so why not beta patches for games.

I didn't jump into every beta patch they released. Some of them I waited a bit for feedback from modders etc. I think it's a good idea because often patches come out that break something or change something unintentionally. The biggest upside is that players can continue playing without updating until official patch release and mods should be updated to accommodate changes by then. Anyone who plays SKyrim on PC without a working SkyUI is nuts anyway.

Just to give another example of how I feel digital distribution is done right and because I think it is relevant as an example for the the whole gaming industry (although Egosoft had been generous to their users in the past as well of course).
Still, how about a free 10 GB update for the Witcher 2 bringing the PC game to the level of the upcoming expanded console release. Also the Witcher 2 Enhanced Special Edition will be made available for free for all owners of the other version of the game (namely retail and Steam) on GOG.com, so a DRM-free digital backup copy without paying for it. I am pretty sure that this level of customer support is unmatched, isn't it?

I'm patiently awaiting the enhanced edition before my second playthrough. That's good stuff indeed.

Also by the way, Fallout can be grabbed for free on GOG.com for the next 48 hours as a giveaway for the relaunch of platform GOG.com.

Never played FO1...might as well grab it!

[Shimrod]

David, I wish every success in this and I'll continue to vote in every poll, sign every petition, and boycott online DRM wherever I find it. I've sent feedback to deepsilver.

However it strikes me that the energy channeled into this thread is falling on deaf ears, and I find it sad to see well written and emotive writing sinking hopelessly beneath the churn. That's not anyone's fault in particular, the post volume is simply a product of funneling all Steam related discussions into a single thread.

To me the logical way forward, being resolved against a Steamworks encumbered purchase, is to reconcile myself to not buying the game at all and stop worrying about it. I've not lost any sleep over Skyrim. As far as alternative pastimes go, my most recent project is to brush up on maths and get my head around physics concepts, so tantalizing are those recorded lectures before they start describing the mathematical models!

[NUKLEAR-SLUG]

4. Internet gaming is all the rage now but all is not rosy on the internet? Reports have been stating the net is getting full up. As governments scratch their heads about how to increase capacity, there is no rush of internet companies opening their wallets to solve the problem. If internet use has to be rationed I can see gaming would not be viewed as a proper use of scarce internet capacity. DRM companies might become illegal and ES might have to sell their games on disks again! What goes around comes around!

I'm assuming you're referencing the IPv4/IPv6 issue in which case you've clearly and fundamentally misunderstood what the problem is. The internet is not 'running out of space', it's not stored on some blokes hard disk someplace. Steam is not going to be outlawed for eating up too much internet 'space'. Youtube and other videostreaming oufits consume vastly more bandwidth than any DRM ever does.

[strude]

Also by the way, Fallout can be grabbed for free on GOG.com for the next 48 hours as a giveaway for the relaunch of platform GOG.com

Is it possible to download this from GOG.com without having to make an account? I find it unacceptable that I need to set up an account to download a game. Given that the game itself won't be bound to the account, for what purpose do they need this information?

[pjknibbs]

Is it possible to download this from GOG.com without having to make an account? I find it unacceptable that I need to set up an account to download a game. Given that the game itself won't be bound to the account, for what purpose do they need this information?

GoG is a digital game shop, and offering Fallout for free is essentially a loss leader for them--namely, they're hoping you'll get the freebie and then go on to buy some of the other stuff they're offering. That wouldn't work very well if you weren't forced to create an account to get the freebie, would it?

[andrewas]

Is it possible to download this from GOG.com without having to make an account? I find it unacceptable that I need to set up an account to download a game. Given that the game itself won't be bound to the account, for what purpose do they need this information?

The game is bound to the account in that you'll be able to download it again at any time in the future, at least so long as GOG exists.This may not seem important for a freebie, but its the same mechanism as they use to sell games.

[David Howland]

Yes NUCLEAR-SLUG!
Your point on bandwidth of Video Streaming is sound but you have to consider the politics of the users here?
If net rationing comes about, the people who will bring in the laws and enforcement will be top politicians and businessmen. Do you really think the politicians and businessmen are going to ban their vital video conferences so a spotty teenager can play his DRM games for 12 hours a day? In a crisis politicians do not first do what is most effective but what looks good!
Also you must look at enforcement; Video streaming is used widely by different people and organisations for different communications purposes, which after all is the primary use of the net. This all makes video streaming difficult to control.
DRM controlled gaming however is a modern, purely recreational use of the net, something the world could very well manage without! The enforcement although not easy, is a relatively simple matter. You make illegal the DRM business and investigate through the Servers, SIMPLE?

[quase]

Is it possible to download this from GOG.com without having to make an account? I find it unacceptable that I need to set up an account to download a game. Given that the game itself won't be bound to the account, for what purpose do they need this information?

GoG is a digital game shop, and offering Fallout for free is essentially a loss leader for them--namely, they're hoping you'll get the freebie and then go on to buy some of the other stuff they're offering. That wouldn't work very well if you weren't forced to create an account to get the freebie, would it?

Strude is asking because I am opposing the account binding as the main problem with Steam.
Of course they are advertising new customers for GOG.com. There are a few free games on GOG.com done for the same purpose. Fallout is only free for 48 hours and so pretty much a thank you giveaway for existing customers. If you want to take advantage of them (shame on you!), you could make an free account with a temporary dummy-mail now and download it without further hesitations, then never return to GOG.com and have fun with the free games.


Look I never said that I had a problem with Steam because the account binding is making used sales impossible. I sold maybe 3-5 games in over twenty years of gaming, but I gave away a lot more games to friends for free. It does not make a difference for Steam if you sell the game or want to give it to a friend, it is and stays illegal to do so according to their EULA. I can see a problem in this of course for other people that regularly use to sell their older games they do not play anymore. If you cannot resell your owned license it somehow contradicts the principle of having bought it. Here we see an artificial monopoly being created by the publishers/devs in which they control a market without pressure from the outside. You should also not forget that the second hand market frees up financial resources for the people to buy new games. There is no such thing as an unlimited financial budget anybody can/will spend on games and I think it is counterproductive to fight/destroy a second hand market if it reduces the liquidity of your potential customer that way. You could say account binding is binding customers to the publisher, but also their capital is wasted because it is instantly worthless in the moment the license is bound.

My main problem with the account binding is the dependency on a third party. At GOG.com there is no dependency because you can install/play/backup your once downloaded copy offline forever. No third party client involved either, if you want. It is your responsibility to take care of the installer of course though. If GOG.com would not exist in the future and thus you could not download the game again, you will have to rely on your installer. As long as GOG.com exists, you could redownload the installer anytime.
I for one can live with this responsibility rather than giving up the ownership right on the licenses I bought. The difference is, it is in my hands and not in the hands of Valve, Deep Silver or Egosoft.

[rusky]

I've seen a lot of people complain about the recent stand the software industry in general has been taking against used software re-sales.

What I feel people don't realise is this:

You CANNOT compare second-hand software to a second-hand physical product (like a car, which many people use as comparison).

When you buy and use a car, the product itself is slowly 'losing quality' as it is used. Ie. A car with over 100.000 km on it will likely have some rather worn out or even damaged parts.
When you buy and use a software product, its quality stays the same as it was when you bought it, FOREVER (referring strictly to the software itself here not various other things that could influence it like what OS you are using etc).

What does this have to do with anything ? A lot actually.
The used car re-sales are not a huge problem for the car industry because it is almost always the case that buying a brand new car will mean higher quality, thus providing a solid incentive for people to NOT buy a used car but instead buy a new one from the manufacturer.

Used software on the other hand is EXACTLY the same as brand new software, meaning that if you can buy it cheaper from someone other than the developer/publisher, there is NO reason not to.

If a game is resold down the line by about 10 people, it will still be the exact same game, only the entire 60€ that it cost was divided by the 10 people that played it.
Try reselling a car 10 times and see how far you get before it's a pile of scrap.

[ConCorDian]

I've seen a lot of people complain about the recent stand the software industry in general has been taking against used software re-sales.

What I feel people don't realise is this:

You CANNOT compare second-hand software to a second-hand physical product (like a car, which many people use as comparison).

When you buy and use a car, the product itself is slowly 'losing quality' as it is used. Ie. A car with over 100.000 km on it will likely have some rather worn out or even damaged parts.
When you buy and use a software product, its quality stays the same as it was when you bought it, FOREVER (referring strictly to the software itself here not various other things that could influence it like what OS you are using etc).

What does this have to do with anything ? A lot actually.
The used car re-sales are not a huge problem for the car industry because it is almost always the case that buying a brand new car will mean higher quality, thus providing a solid incentive for people to NOT buy a used car but instead buy a new one from the manufacturer.

Used software on the other hand is EXACTLY the same as brand new software, meaning that if you can buy it cheaper from someone other than the developer/publisher, there is NO reason not to.

If a game is resold down the line by about 10 people, it will still be the exact same game, only the entire 60€ that it cost was divided by the 10 people that played it.
Try reselling a car 10 times and see how far you get before it's a pile of scrap.

oh dear... for one software does lose quality... pobably faster than physical items... this is due to quality being "an items fitness for purpose" software markets move so fast that by the time someone sells on the software the new software thats been released since makes it look like a pile of shit... therefore quality is lost as its "fitness for purpose" has now been suppassed numerous times by the new releases.

also car manufacturers do have a major issue with resales. this is all because value engineering has began to slowly fail the car industry as now a days more and more people want a return on their outgoings... therefore the resale ability of a car is of the utmost importance, so much so that car manufacturers must add in such a degree of quality to a car that their own profit magins decrease to very small amounts. same happens with cars not bought brand new but bought near new/pre reg etc etc.

[rusky]

I've seen a lot of people complain about the recent stand the software industry in general has been taking against used software re-sales.

What I feel people don't realise is this:

You CANNOT compare second-hand software to a second-hand physical product (like a car, which many people use as comparison).

When you buy and use a car, the product itself is slowly 'losing quality' as it is used. Ie. A car with over 100.000 km on it will likely have some rather worn out or even damaged parts.
When you buy and use a software product, its quality stays the same as it was when you bought it, FOREVER (referring strictly to the software itself here not various other things that could influence it like what OS you are using etc).

What does this have to do with anything ? A lot actually.
The used car re-sales are not a huge problem for the car industry because it is almost always the case that buying a brand new car will mean higher quality, thus providing a solid incentive for people to NOT buy a used car but instead buy a new one from the manufacturer.

Used software on the other hand is EXACTLY the same as brand new software, meaning that if you can buy it cheaper from someone other than the developer/publisher, there is NO reason not to.

If a game is resold down the line by about 10 people, it will still be the exact same game, only the entire 60€ that it cost was divided by the 10 people that played it.
Try reselling a car 10 times and see how far you get before it's a pile of scrap.

oh dear... for one software does lose quality... pobably faster than physical items... this is due to quality being "an items fitness for purpose" software markets move so fast that by the time someone sells on the software the new software thats been released since makes it look like a pile of shit... therefore quality is lost as its "fitness for purpose" has now been suppassed numerous times by the new releases.

also car manufacturers do have a major issue with resales. this is all because value engineering has began to slowly fail the car industry as now a days more and more people want a return on their outgoings... therefore the resale ability of a car is of the utmost importance, so much so that car manufacturers must add in such a degree of quality to a car that their own profit magins decrease to very small amounts. same happens with cars not bought brand new but bought near new/pre reg etc etc.

I don't see how a software can be less "fit for purpose" any period of time later than when it was created.
There can be others out there in the meantime that are more fit for the purpose but what a software product does never changes, unlike a physical item.
A software product's value may go down in time, but only by relation to the current market and other software products on it, not by virtue of it actually losing any quality at all.

You can use software forever, it'll always do what you bought it for, you can't use a car more than 2-3 years without additional expenses. That's why reselling software is a bigger problem, especially when you consider the rate of software upgrades has considerably diminished over the last 5 or so years.

[quase]

Maybe you should not so much think about the comparison of physical products like cars with software, but think about books and software. A book does not really wear off if handled carefully. They may be readable hundreds of years in the future. Still nobody sane would deny you to sell your books or give them away to a public library. You also do not own the intellectual property of the book, just like the software license story. The difference between the software industry and literature is that they found a way to drive out private competition to their market by creating an artificial monopoly with the help of account binding.

Thankfully we will see the books coming to the same level sooner or later with the concept of eBooks which will of course be bound to your account somehow. I hope the difference for eBooks will work out as the story did for music. I hope there will be enough people staying against account binding and third party content control to make the difference. Unlike the bunch of gamers who seem to feed everything.