Split from X-Rebirth Steam poll thread - Round 2

Post by **Nanook** » Fri, 28. Oct 11, 19:03

All old posts split from original Steam poll thread are located here: Old Steam Poll posts split and 'archived'.

As stated at the end of the locked portion, feel free to quote and comment on any current discussions/debates. For the reason for this split, please read the last post in that thread. Have fun.

X2-Eliah · Post by **X2-Eliah** » Fri, 28. Oct 11, 19:10

strude wrote:Correct, you do have the right to live without Steam. Just don't install it. Your rights are upheld!!!

Of course, you don't actually have "a right" to play any particular game. You have a choice to play a game, if you like. If you make the choice to play it, then good for you, but there is nothing that says you have the right to be able to play it on your terms. They set the terms of play, take it or leave it.

Generally, this is pretty much where it's at. Problem is that people - and especially the gaming communities - have an incredibly inflated, self-focused sense of entitlement, where they seemingly have a natural right to expect and demand everything be custom-tailored to their unique situation.. But in the end it's attrition, more or less. Majority sway is the critical thing, not some extremely vocal aggressive minority, and.. well, if one finds himself in the minority, then where exactly does the 'fault' lie?

Btw folks, could we all please post only definite facts and not far-fetched assumptions on this? Maybe so people on the fence aren't fed a load of bull about steam's tyranny / steam's godliness. If you aren't 100% sure about stuff, then don't present it as fact

strude · Post by **strude** » Fri, 28. Oct 11, 19:33

Texhnolyzed wrote:
apricotslice wrote:I want a disk, in a box, that does NOT require the internet to run. Period.
Considering that you don't want to buy X: Rebirth, I wonder why you even still post in this thread. I mean, you made all statements you can countless times already.

To people familiar with Steam, what has come through the official channels "pretty much" says that Steam will be required as a permanent installation to be able to play. Apricotslice is not a Steam user, and as such is holding out until a statement along the lines of "Steam will be required, and there is no possibility of a Steam free version ever" from an official Egosoft representative, at which point I assume his "GAME OVER" stance will prevail and there will be no more posts. Sadly, this means there will be no contributions from him in the Rebirth script and modding area either

.

He believes that making a vocal protest against Steam may result in a Steam free version at some point, so that he'll be able to play the game on his terms. Personally I don't think that's going to happen. However, for so long as the exact words above have not been posted by an Egosoft official, apricotslice lives in hope, and remains vocal, to ensure someone, somewhere, is aware of his discontent. Who knows, maybe it will make a difference and a Steam free edition will hit the streets one day (dependant on Steam contracts probably).

The arguments seem pretty tedious to me (back and forward and back and forward), and I guess a lot of others. But if those that would prefer a Steam free version say nothing, then that's what they'll get, so they might as well say something.

If people are tired of arguing, then don't argue. If the thread doesn't drop then maybe there is something to it after all. I once thought, as others might, that I needed to defend "the facts" to stop the "scaremongering", but seriously, it's probably doing more harm just by having the thread on the top of the front page. For example, one of the plus points that the pro Steam people bring up is the assumed increased sales that just being on Steam will provide. Those sales are going to be to people who already have Steam, so won't be affected by negative posts on the forum regarding Steam. People "on the fence" should be checking things out for themselves from a wide range of sources, and not basing their decision on a few forum posts.

EmperorJon · Post by **EmperorJon** » Fri, 28. Oct 11, 19:41

Strude, I feel this thread might as well be locked because of what you just said. No more debate needs to be made. You've effectively, hit the nail on its massive head with a sledgehammer.

Mightysword · Post by **Mightysword** » Fri, 28. Oct 11, 20:02

strude wrote: If people are tired of arguing, then don't argue. If the thread doesn't drop then maybe there is something to it after all. I once thought, as others might, that I needed to defend "the facts" to stop the "scaremongering", but seriously, it's probably doing more harm just by having the thread on the top of the front page.

Even without the other side participated, there is no guarantee it will just drop off the grid. It's fine to be vocal, but once again I hope people do it in a more responsible way. I already said, what you post affect more people than just you, however when I brought this up I was told in the face that "I just say what on my mind, I am not trying to be reasonable or sensible". That is a very irresponsibility stance that's quite a few people taking. So here I am, I can't stop the scaremongering, but I can stop others from getting scared.

Antaran · Post by **Antaran** » Fri, 28. Oct 11, 20:15

With a car you pay the full cost of a car. And went you rent it. You only pay a share of the cost

When you buy software you don't pay the full price of the software. Only a share of it. So in a way. How is it different ?

Especially when games cost considerable more than a car the the price you pay is less than u would pay for a car rent

Well actually if we use the same comparison you should only have to pay for the box and the CD, when you pay for a car you are not paying a full price for the guy that went to the drawing board on each part.

So pretty much you are paying a share for the development of the car, just like you are doing when you buy software in a box.

Antaran · Post by **Antaran** » Fri, 28. Oct 11, 20:22

People that come to forums and post about games, especially one that isn't out yet, are still the minority of a player base. If Rebirth requires Steam and it loses them a few sales, I can promise you they won't care and will be laughing all the way to bank with the increased sales they get from being on Steam. It's just that simple.

None of us care if the game is sold on Steam, imo good for Egosoft for the increased sales, good for Steam users, what we do care is that we cannot get it outside of Steam, how is this hard to understand?

Why do the steam people always assume that we are demanding that the game should not be on Steam..... I do not care how much you love [insert useless function that steam has] that steam offers you, not a single thing that Steam has to offer is appealing to me, alot of things steam requires of me is unacceptable to me.

This is not hard to understand.

perkint · Post by **perkint** » Fri, 28. Oct 11, 20:27

If the mods feel the need to lock the thread, or the OP asks for it to be locked, they will. And chances are someone will just start a new one!

Whilst there is active discussion there is no point locking it unless it breaks the forum rules (which some people have done more than a few times!). Fortunately the mods have been splitting the worst out and separately locking them. This thread isn't about scaremongering or even trying to convert people (altho pro steamers have been trying and even succeeded in at least one instance!). It is a way for some people to express their opinions and raise their hopes enough to be noticed!

Do I think it'll have the effect they hope for? Nope! Shame for the ones who won't use steam or can't use steam (altho there are work around's for most of those who can't). But they are, almost undoubtedly, a hugely insignificant number in comparison which the extra numbers Steam will bring in. But it is a shame there is no solution that will work for all

If you don't like the discussion, don't take part. If you feel you need to keep participating in the discussion - cool

One of the more entertaining threads there's been in a while

Even if some of the belittling comments have been quite offensive

Steam is a very good service. But like everything else, it has it's pro's (a lot) and con's (which some people do not want or cannot deal with easily). As was pointed out earlier, when you're in the minority against something you have little chance of changing it. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't try!

Tim

Alee Enn · Post by **Alee Enn** » Fri, 28. Oct 11, 20:30

Antaran wrote:None of us care if the game is sold on Steam, imo good for Egosoft for the increased sales, good for Steam users, what we do care is that we cannot get it outside of Steam, how is this hard to understand?

Why do the steam people always assume that we are demanding that the game should not be on Steam..... I do not care how much you love [insert useless function that steam has] that steam offers you, not a single thing that Steam has to offer is appealing to me, alot of things steam requires of me is unacceptable to me.

This is not hard to understand.

Agreed, all we want is CHOICE

VincentTH · Post by **VincentTH** » Fri, 28. Oct 11, 20:55

May I add the 2 outstanding/unresolved issues I have with Steam and X3TC (before the issues got burried under a 100-page thread).

(1) Can't reliably run X3TC+DLC in Offline mode.
Link to my post and screenshot

(2) DiD save games lost. This problem was reported since the SunnyPlace DLC, and it is still unresolved after 3+ months. Xenon_Slayer has been able to reproduce it, and pointed the finger at Steam, but Steam keeps denying it, saying that they can't.
(For those questioning the relevance of this, X3TC DiD save games are saved on Steam Clouds. The save would intermittently disappear without a trace. For DiD players, that is equivalent to GameOver, with no possible reload).

I have no problem with other people preferring Steam or that Steam is the future. I don't have any issue with DRM such as TAGES. All I want is a non-Steam choice for me to play RELIABLY without internet connection (or have restricted internet connection like being behind a corporate/University firewall); the alternate choice can be either DRM or a one-time-Steam-activation-then-deinstall-Steam. The keyword is reliably, of course, and Steam offline mode is far from being reliable, from my own experience, not hearsay.

For the record, I have 10 years experience as a Network programmer and 2 years experience as a DRM SW developer for a DRM company that was owned by Microsoft (and recently sold). I am currently working as a Linux device driver programmer for a chip company. I have 2000+ hours play time logged for X3TC-on-Steam (on 2 different accounts, one with SunnyPlace-DLC, and one without), so I can say I speak from experience and not a naive user.

NUKLEAR-SLUG · Post by **NUKLEAR-SLUG** » Fri, 28. Oct 11, 21:57

Mightysword wrote:Even without the other side participated, there is no guarantee it will just drop off the grid. It's fine to be vocal, but once again I hope people do it in a more responsible way. I already said, what you post affect more people than just you, however when I brought this up I was told in the face that "I just say what on my mind, I am not trying to be reasonable or sensible". That is a very irresponsibility stance that's quite a few people taking. So here I am, I can't stop the scaremongering, but I can stop others from getting scared.

Essentially this.

There's nothing wrong with those who object to Steam for whatever reason, be it integration with Rebirth or purely the concept itself, from doing so. Provided of course they're doing it from the position of knowing what they're actually talking about.

Unfortunately there's been a fair bit of ignorance of concept or misunderstanding of functionality that's been presented by some as indisputable fact and for those that may be undecided on whether to try out Steam, to be told that it's the spawn of the devil and will worm it's way through your machine, take over Windows and then randomly ban your account for the lulz is, to quote Mr Slice, "Completely unacceptable".

It would be a disservice to those that may be put off buying the game, a result that harms both the potential enjoyment of the individual let alone Egosofts financial future, to not clamp down on the most egregious hyperbole so that those less technically minded can make an informed decision.

Deleted User · Post by **Deleted User** » Fri, 28. Oct 11, 22:16

strude wrote:
He [apricotslice] believes that making a vocal protest against Steam may result in a Steam free version at some point, so that he'll be able to play the game on his terms. Personally I don't think that's going to happen. However, for so long as the exact words above have not been posted by an Egosoft official, apricotslice lives in hope, and remains vocal, to ensure someone, somewhere, is aware of his discontent. Who knows, maybe it will make a difference and a Steam free edition will hit the streets one day (dependant on Steam contracts probably).

At well over 100 pages of discussion and now a second thread perhaps it is time for an EGO official to come out and say what is happening with regards to steamworks and if possible alternatives exist.

I saw this thread:-
http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php? ... c&start=45

Shea links to gamestop in that thread, and whilst the release date seems contested, the ad clearly shows rebirth as a GFWL release.

I am getting confused now, is there hope of alternatives to steam (if you consider GFWL an alternative), or am I just getting confused?

Post by **CBJ** » Sat, 29. Oct 11, 00:39

quick brown wrote:At well over 100 pages of discussion and now a second thread perhaps it is time for an EGO official to come out and say what is happening with regards to steamworks and if possible alternatives exist.

Bernd wrote:It is very likely that X Rebirth will be using Steamworks, because our publisher is moving all recent games to this platform. This would of course not mean that you can only buy the game electronically via Steam, but that a boxed copy that you buy in a shop would have to be activated with Steam.

Unless you happen to have a Crystal Ball of Perfect Clarity we can borrow, that's as definitive a statement as can be provided at the moment.

quick brown wrote:I saw this thread:-
http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php? ... c&start=45

Shea links to gamestop in that thread, and whilst the release date seems contested, the ad clearly shows rebirth as a GFWL release.

As always, retailers' wild guesses on release details of games for which that information has not yet been made public, are a great source of unfounded rumour and speculation. My advice is to ignore anything that doesn't come from "official" sources.

fairywhipper · Post by **fairywhipper** » Sat, 29. Oct 11, 01:09

If we dont stand up and be counted and fight for OUR choice, then you cannot fight the battle. Even if we lose the battle and the war, at least we know we have tried to make a difference.
Apart from fun view, there was no real reason why prosteam activist would intrude and bait arugements as it does not effect them, they all believe in BIG brother steam, so why bait the ones for whom want a choice of something else.
Many of us dont want steam for a variety of reason, but whatever the reasoning how does that effect you prosteam activists. So i see most of your arguments as arguments for arguments sake. As i see your arguments that those whom do not have the resources such as stable unlimited internet access should just go back to our caves and bang rocks. How snobbish elitist, maybe you should step out of your cocoon and see how the other 6.8 Billion people live. You stand at the crossroads of human developement, but you choose to walk a path along the line "we have computers, you guys have rocks and pieces of string". Beware rocks and strings can do a lot of damage to a computer.

So i will carry on been vocal, i will not be taunted by those whom i feel 'need to grow up and get a life', i will carry on until we achieve something or conformation that our struggle is meaningless. to give up without a fight is an option i will not take.

So hail BIGBROTHER PROSTEAM activist, defend thy self from the whom seek choice or remove thy self from the path of struggles which lie ahead.
We give you a choice, which is more than what you would give us.

PS
there was some interesting bits about steam that we learnt from people who wanted to help, and i say thank you for your help, because it might help somebody who needs it.

bobxii · Post by **bobxii** » Sat, 29. Oct 11, 01:16

^ That's a whole lot of hyperbole for one post... maybe split it into bit-sized chunks?

This isn't about yours or my personal opinions, this is about business, pure and simple. Egosoft didn't elect to serve us Steam users because we're cool cats, they did it because we're more profitable. Consider that.

fairywhipper · Post by **fairywhipper** » Sat, 29. Oct 11, 01:19

Ignoring you customers is bad for business.

Antaran · Post by **Antaran** » Sat, 29. Oct 11, 01:24

bobxii wrote:^ That's a whole lot of hyperbole for one post... maybe split it into bit-sized chunks?

This isn't about yours or my personal opinions, this is about business, pure and simple. Egosoft didn't elect to serve us Steam users because we're cool cats, they did it because we're more profitable. Consider that.

Nobody is complaining that egosoft decided to use steam, the complaint is because egosoft decided to use steam exclusively.

So, leaving the rest of the world in the cold is less profitable, your argument is flawed.

bobxii · Post by **bobxii** » Sat, 29. Oct 11, 01:26

Antaran wrote:So, leaving the rest of the world in the cold is less profitable, your argument is flawed.

Not when it costs extra time and money to maintain a second release version and DRM license.

I asked this earlier: What features would you sacrifice so your tiny minority can get what they want?

Bernd wrote:It is very likely that X Rebirth will be using Steamworks, because our publisher is moving all recent games to this platform. This would of course not mean that you can only buy the game electronically via Steam, but that a boxed copy that you buy in a shop would have to be activated with Steam.

I know not everybody likes this, but for us as a developer this is great news, because it means that there is only ONE version we have to support and that all of our customers can automatically update to the latest version of the game. I can not overstate how big a deal this is from a developers point of view!

It may be hard for most of you active forum users to understand, because you would always see a new update and install it immediately, but unfortunately you are just a minority.

-Bernd

(Emphasis mine)

fairywhipper · Post by **fairywhipper** » Sat, 29. Oct 11, 01:30

Cost which is passed on to the customer whom buys a product. all products cost resources, and products are generally sold at profit to recoup costs.

bobxii · Post by **bobxii** » Sat, 29. Oct 11, 01:32

fairywhipper wrote:Cost which is passed on to the customer whom buys a product. all products cost resources, and products are generally sold at profit to recoup costs.

We both know they can't pass costs on to the consumer in the gaming industry; games are already hard pressed to maintain sales at $60 per.