[MSCI] Manual on forums (volunteers sign-up here now)

[djrygar]

I have a petition / idea to Scripts&Modding forum moderator


I think it could be great to have MSCI handbook here. In the same way xai-corp implents it. Meaning subforums reflecting command structure/layout in editor (so subforum 'Universe Commands', "General COmmands/Signals" etc etc)

There is plenty of knowledge on forums, that is buried in 234334th post in 3455th thread at 23th page that will never be found when needed.

Of course I am not asking moderator to set threads for all possible commands (that would be tiresome work), but let us, users do it. And point several moderators among experienced scripters that will be allowed to delete/modify stuff that will be entered there
Obviously there should be no offtopic chit-chat allowed, just useful informations, links to scripts that use specific command in some innovative way, for example I will ljust point latest ThisIsHarsh' discovery about SIGNAL_CHANGEDSEECTOR - invaluable information that may get lost after 3 months when noone else will talk about it anymore. DIscussions of course allowed, as long as they are informative, not somwthing 'this command does not work in my script' stuff

..unless this subject was already discussed and rejected for some reasons


------------------------------------------ post jacked by Ketraar ------------------------------------------

List of users that stated that they are willing to be part of this

• mark_a_condren
  X2-Illuminatus (possible translations)
  Striker304
  Serial Kicked
  djrygar
  Saetan
  Unitrader
  apricotslice (proofreading)

Last update: 03/Sept/2010

[Saetan]

One as a SubBoard in the English S&M-Board would do the job. In there, the categories would be some more Sub's, and the commands itself would be the Topics.

Only Topics which fit the name of an command of the SE could be accepted (or at least be renamed to fit the scheme). The first post could contain the information of the script command (description, values, in which version of the game available, ...) in a standardized scheme.

Any following post could be used to discuss the command and it's description (errors, more details, ...).

Of course, that would mean, that the people posting there have to care about the rules by themselves (seems to be hard sometimes for someones). And a Mod-Team which is willed to care about them too. Because I think, to keep it as a useable Handbook, the rules have to be handled very strict. At least for the new topics, their names and their first postings. Any following post, could be handled less strict.

But the best benefit would be a Handbook, which is up to date, easy to find and to use and can be maintained by "any" scripter. And it could be linked via a pinned topic from the German, French and Italian S&M and any other language sections too.

[ThisIsHarsh]

I really like this idea. Unfortunately, I give it about 0.1% chance of being accepted.

[(----____JEFF____----)]

Funny, yesterday I was about to post we really need an updated msci (the old X2 one is missing so many commands by now... and the one at Xai Corp is also pretty useless as virtually all commands have no description, at Xuniverse there also seems to be a WIP msci, but as that's just been started it also is virtually empty...).

Though I doubt it'll get accepted here (in the form of an online version that is). Personally I prefer an offline version, just like the old msci, that way searching is much easier. Though a google-type search should also suffice.

[djrygar]

personally I cannot think of any honest reason to not allowing this. People often keep asking the same questions again and again, and those who know answers are getting tired of answering them (which is understandable).

Aren't forums for us in the end?

[Sartorie]

while the idea is good the choice of tools couldn't be worse

I do not think the ES forum software supports subforums at all. Even then making these, sorting the command posts out (which will be sorted by their date rather than their place in the SE anyhow) and keeping the threads clean requires someone with the priviledges to do it - not to mention the dreaded "search" ...

the idea of people collaborating while some tend to the general structure etc. means a wiki would be your best choice, there are even some with automated pdf export for offline copies etc.

[djrygar]

lack of subforums is probably ES choice because of high traffic and they probably created their own CGIs to run them at reasonable speed. That's fine


Still Manual can be placed in MAIN part, (ie be on the same level as X-Universe, S&M forums etc)

Then 3-level structure would be available I guess

but even 2 level would be enough, we are not as stupid I guess

Even 1 level would be enough for me, with proper naming (you can always name you thread "General commands / Signals / Signal Attacked", right?

And the main disadvantage of any wiki etc is that it would need to be placed outside Egosoft forums - we already have those and know what is happening to them. Owners disappear, losing interest, etc..

[Carlo the Curious]

Few random thoughts:

• Extra work for the moderators.
  
  It's all very well saying 'the forum members can maintain it', but it would still need moderation for spam, misplaced posts, inaccurate information, forum rules, etc, etc.
• phpBB 2.0 does not support subforums, as far as I know.
• I think a wiki would be a far better tool for this kind of thing - either a new one, or updating one of the existing ones (beside XaiCorp and TXU, there's also xwiki.chaos.nz.net, x.wikia.com, x3wiki.com, and probably a few others).

[Ketraar]

While this seams to be a good idea, I must agree with Sartorie, where the tools are probably a bad choice. One possible way (and don't quote me on this, its just me thinking out loud) is maybe to have a write restricted forum where committed users build up this Reference system and its read-only for all others. A own forum would also mean you can filter it in search.

A Wiki would be easier though IMO, just needs the people doing it.

MFG

Ketraar

[djrygar]

you all are right about better tools etc. But the main advantage if ES forums is PEOPLE, not tools. And people gather HERE, on ES forums, and in the end that is only thing that matters. Any external wiki etc will not work for simple reason - experienced scripters will not go there.

We can already forget about ES-hosted wiki, that will surely not happen, I am looking at this realistically

As for moderators having more work - I'd say it opposite. There is plenty of threads that contain questions answered 100 times - and they need to be moderated as well. Having answers in one place would hugely reduce amount of work for moderators
In addition, there could be really strict rules. Meaning: invalid post = instant delete. No exlanations etc. That regular forums are for.

[Carlo the Curious]

As for moderators having more work - I'd say it opposite. There is plenty of threads that contain questions answered 100 times. Having answers in one place would hugely reduce amount of work for moderators

It doesn't work that way, unfortunately.

Witness general sticky blindness, the number of threads already locked in S&M for being in the wrong place, the number of common questions asked in the main forums with answers that are already on the same page or in the FAQ, etc, etc.

EDIT: Also...

Any external wiki etc will not work for simple reason - experienced scripters will not go there.

This is wrong (or at least, over-generalising).

To pick just one example, TXU is home of the X-Tended Mod (among others).

[jlehtone]

I have a petition / idea to Scripts&Modding forum moderator

I think it could be great to have MSCI handbook here. In the same way xai-corp implents it.

1. Moderators cannot create fora. Bribe the site Admins (which is not an S&M activity ).
2. Xai-Corp writes:

Anyone can add information simply by creating a new handbook page, or by adding details to an existing page. If you know something that isn't already mentioned here please add it.

Does all that really have to be duplicated, if that "anyone" is still active and the rest of us know where the Xai-Corp is?

On the other hand -- like Carlo says -- if nobody bothers to find Xai-Corp nor update it, then nobody will find or update similar collection of data anywhere.

[(----____JEFF____----)]

Well I'm willing to add things to Xai Corp if I want to, but the thing is if I can't find anything there I have to figure out how it works myself and once I've done that I can't really be bothered to update something on a site I rarely visit and have no clue if anyone else will even look at what I added there. This might sound a bit selfish, but I generally have the impression that xai corp's msci is rarely used (because it is so empty).
I'd rather add it to xuniverse because that's a place I come often, but even there I don't know how many people would actually use the stuff I add (I'm not looking for the most hits, I just want to help the most people, if no one ever visits the page I'm kinda wasting my time adding stuff to it, aren't I?).

So yeah for me it's a bit of an infinite loop issue as little activity means little information, which in turn leads to little activity. Now if I found something useful somewhere that would motivate me to add something back, but adding stuff to an empty shell feels useless to me.

[Deleted User]

Few random thoughts:

• Extra work for the moderators.
  
  It's all very well saying 'the forum members can maintain it', but it would still need moderation for spam, misplaced posts, inaccurate information, forum rules, etc, etc.
• phpBB 2.0 does not support subforums, as far as I know.
• I think a wiki would be a far better tool for this kind of thing - either a new one, or updating one of the existing ones (beside XaiCorp and TXU, there's also xwiki.chaos.nz.net, x.wikia.com, x3wiki.com, and probably a few others).

This exactly points at the problems that would arise when bringin such a project online on egosoft. The FAQ would support something that would come close to a MSCI with its main- and sub-categories, but to maintain a system like this requires much work and since the FAQ system is capable of handling HTML it's impossible to let everyone take hands on it. This then would require one or a few more persons to update it which, as said, is a giant amount of work that isn't worthwhile. The old FAQ system died because of the workload coming along with it, so we're really happy that the new one is maintained now. And as pointed out, this phpBB2 version doesn't support childboards. Even if it would it's again a forum or more that needs to be moderated carefully, so I'm sorry, but that's a no go for something like this on egosoft.

[apricotslice]

It could be done here.

It simply needs a hiarachical thread structure.

So,

1. Single thread for MSCI documentation threads, that lists commands that have documentation threads for them (and links them), and maybe a list of related topics that cover scripting methodology and issues that cross multiple commands. Perhaps also a "How to" section where threads exist on how to do a particular 'thing'.

2. Said thread linked prominently from the main sticky.

3. New thread to be titled [MSCI] name of command, or topic of discussion. Then submitted to the main thread for inclusion of the link to it on the OP.

Whoever creates the main documentation linking thread, does the admin of keeping it up to date. Anyone can submit a recommendation for inclusion of threads in the list.

We already have a number of documentation threads linked from the sticky thread, this one just adds an extra level, in order that we dont end up with a giant thread no one has time to read. And its just an extension of the existing structure 1 more level.

The same could also be done for the MD.

[Serial Kicked]

Meh.

Boards, in general, are unpractical for documentation purpose. And become useless when they have a broken search function (and yes, it is broken from an user point of view). I really don't think that cluttering the board with tons of [msci] topics will help anyone here.

Wiki systems have been invented for that purpose. Why not use these if you really want to document the msci commands? Changes to the wiki could still be discussed in a single topic here.

Either way, i don't think it will work. Xai-corp wiki is a good proof of that and that's not the first (or last) attempt. We are a few to know the msci well, and even less to be interested in writing a documentation on our spare time. Moreover, understanding a command doesn't always mean that we can explain it in plain simple english: being coders don't always mean we're good teachers (it's usually the opposite )

[(----____JEFF____----)]

Well if you know how it works you can explain it, right? (I don't see why you can't)
Just listing simple things like what arguments it takes and what it returns in what case (so what does it return on success and what does it return on failure), for me those are the most important parts and maybe a piece of example code or something would be useful as well. I don't see anything here we as coders can't do, or am I missing something? xD

But yeah doing it and being motivated to do it are 2 different things and I think mainly the motivation is missing as there are relatively few people actually interested in this.

[Serial Kicked]

I've coded in delphi/pascal and C for years and i know from experience that I am unable to teach the basics to someone who hasn't already a decent programming skill, even in my native language. I usually use this sentence (it sounds better in french): How do you explain colors to a blind man ?

A lot of coders i know (in real life) have the same issue, and really hate when the boss tell them: "hey we've hired a bunch of newbs, go teach them!". Some people can, others can't.

But that's not my point anyway.

My point was that using a/the forum is probably the worst way to proceed, and that very few of us are committed to do so. Feel free to prove me wrong

[(----____JEFF____----)]

My point was that using a/the forum is probably the worst way to proceed, and that very few of us are committed to do so. Feel free to prove me wrong

Yeah that's pretty much what I've been saying as well, in being not motivated to add stuff to something that's rarely used. So I think we can both agree a forum is not the right tool for this and that there still is a general lack of motivation/commitment/involvement for this.

Though I've been talking to some people at TXU and though I've yet to speak with the man in charge, it seems (that is the keyword here) that someone feels committed to make a complete msci wiki there. If that's true I'm willing to lend a hand there, but I first want to talk to the man in charge to make sure we're not going to do double work xD So with a bit of luck you guys can find everything you need there soon (and even though it's not here, but at TXU, having it somewhere is better then not having it at all, right?).

[apricotslice]

I've coded in delphi/pascal and C for years and i know from experience that I am unable to teach the basics to someone who hasn't already a decent programming skill, even in my native language. I usually use this sentence (it sounds better in french): How do you explain colors to a blind man ?

I'm the opposite. I'm ex-cobol and I can teach how to do things.

However in this case, the script editor is a giant frustration for me, since I'm a cut and paste coder, not a hunt the menus coder. By the time I want any given command again, I've forgotten where it is. The sheer amount of time to find any given command is lunacy and the lack of a search function on something so complicated is criminal. You should be able to search on the key words of a command alphabetically. We know what the command is usually, just cant find it !

The way the editor is structured doesnt even lend itself to documenting. For example, you cant just select one of every command and put them in a script in a specific order, because you cant save the script without filling in all the variables. Nor can you cut and paste out of the game because it wasnt built to cut and paste. You cant even take screen shots of the menus, because the boxes were designed as scollers, and no matter the screen size, you cant fit all options on 1 screen.

Under normal circumstances, I'd take a go at this, but the task is actually too daunting to even consider.