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[Saetan]

end conditional (The script command)
This command does...

This command is used...

Example Code: (should only be a short code, just enough so that you have a short example of the use of this command)
while $x
...
end

What do you think?

mfg
Striker

I like it so far, for me it seems to be important to add an own point for the version of X³:TC (maybe including X³:R?), from which on the command is available.

[Striker304]

for me it seems to be important to add an own point for the version of X³:TC (maybe including X³:R?), from which on the command is available.

Yep, definitely. Now i added in my above post a point for other notes, like the game Version.

mfg
Striker

[Serial Kicked]

I've nothing against your way of displaying the commands.

Dunno how the permissions will work there. But imho what seems the most logical choice is to have one sticky per command category, like this:

sticky: Trade Commands
sticky: General Commands
...

Each sticky containing the link to the various topic/commands already treated for each category.

[Trade] Buy Ware
[Fly] Dock At
...

Also, i don't really think there's a need to explain what's a "end", "while", and the like. It's already covered in the MSCI handbook for X2 in a noob friendly fashion (and it's kinda pointless to explain a "while" without explaining in the meantime what's a "end", "continue" and "break" anyway).

On that matter, I guess you realize that at least 50% (if not way more) of the commands are relatively well explained in this handbook and the data provided is still valid. I'm not sure it's necessary to reinvent the wheel here, copying the already available data and eventually adding notes and corrections should be enough for those commands.

Also, there's a few topics that really need an explanation given what i've read in a lot of scripts here: Signals, Priority are the two coming to my mind right now, there's probably others. Those topics don't always belong to a specific command, so an additional category like [basics], [tutorials] or something like that could be interesting.

[Saetan]

Also, i don't really think there's a need to explain what's a "end", "while", and the like. It's already covered in the MSCI handbook for X2 in a noob friendly fashion (and it's kinda pointless to explain a "while" without explaining in the meantime what's a "end", "continue" and "break" anyway).

I do ... else we could say, we don't need a description for the most of the commands, as a lot are self explaining ... at least if you are expired. But the Handbook should be only for advanced users, but also for newcomers. And therefore I think, even the simple base-commands should be explaind.

And for your handbook for X2 comment: If you have to search multiple different places, it's also nonsense in my opinion.

All or nothing ... anyway who wants to help can decide by him-/herself which topic he/she will create, if it is missing.

[Ketraar]

I guess If not all commands fit into one topic one pinned index for every global category should be best, despite them being quite a few.

I agree with Saetan about the simple base-commands all aspects should be covered.

The Forum will be read only for all non-team members. Permission can be set up so all members can edit all topics for practical reasons sake.

MFG

Ketraar

[Serial Kicked]

I'm not sure i follow you here.

If you want it to be noob-friendly and easy to read, I'm not really sure you can explain a "end" and a "if" in two different topics. A general post (or a few) explaining what's a loop, what's a conditional statement - like you can find in most programming books - would be better imho.

But do as you wish, i'm not interested in that part anyway

And for your handbook for X2 comment: If you have to search multiple different places, it's also nonsense in my opinion.

I don't understand. I've said that we should use the data already available in the handbook, nothing more.

[Saetan]

The Forum will be read only for all non-team members. Permission can be set up so all members can edit all topics for practical reasons sake.

No technical way for the board-engine to allow new postings for all registered users and new topics and editing only for team-members?
Or is it simply a decission by the board administration?



Serial Kicked:
If, While, End, ... all of them can be described in their own topics, it's no problem to use a comment about relations to end in the description of an if or a while to. The same otherwise.

For my answer about your X2 comment: I thought you meant, that it's not necessary to cover the parts of the MSCI, which are already contained in the X2 one and to leave that commands away.

If you just meant to use existing information out of the X2-one and adding it to the board-version of the MSCI forget my answer about that part of your post.

[djrygar]

I
Also, there's a few topics that really need an explanation given what i've read in a lot of scripts here: Signals, Priority are the two coming to my mind right now, there's probably others. Those topics don't always belong to a specific command, so an additional category like [basics], [tutorials] or something like that could be interesting.

Exactly

in first post I have pointed ThisIsHarsh' nice discovery with signal_changedsector. THis is exactly what I would like to see in such "book" - innovative or unknown uses for different commands, what you can expect, etc etc, known problems. For example for few days we have been fighting (in IR thread) with problem of Shipyard not triggering signal_selware. having such information under signal_selware would save us a lot of time. Thats just example, I am sure there are plenty of such things. Or a note that particular command is CPU hungry etc

of course MSCI handbook format is not perfect as well, as MAYBE problem-solving approach (How-to's) would be more useful than list of commands, I don't know (in both cases flat structure limits very much what we can do)

[mark_a_condren]

Until we get word on any specific layout of the forum from the Admins, its hard to specify the best way to lay it out. Or is it the standard forum layout we have now, just a read only version for non team members?

An All or nothing approach is the only sensible way to go. A lot of the problem now is that a lot of information is out there, but it's scattered to the 4 winds. It needs to be consolidated into one place and everything covered as much as possable, not Ok we do this bit but don't worry about that bit because it's not really major. It's all important. A Noob starts off knowing nothing, nadda, zip. They need from the absolute basics right up to advanced information, so as their skills improve they can incorporate the advance information on commands into their scripts. Give the information so you can at first crawl, then walk then run. (we all know there will be trips and stumbles along the way) and yes i'm including myself in the 'as their skills improve' comment, i still mave MUCH to learn about many things.

MarCon

[Ketraar]

@Saetan
If posting for general public is allowed you get 2 issues.

1. You get spammed to oblivion. Q&A for general users remains S&M Board.

2. You then need moderators, wont happen.

Its where the "maintaining" part comes, here team members will have to scout forums and recognise a question that may need to be addressed in the the "Handbook" (I just realise a proper name is required) and add it.

We may consider (and if S&M Mods agree) to have a Sticky in S&M Forum for both group sign-up and article inclusion, similar to the one for community scripts. This way the MSCI Forum stays clean, a sanctuary of pure knowledge

just a read only version for non team members?

Yes like the others just empty

MFG

Ketraar

[Serial Kicked]

If you just meant to use existing information out of the X2-one and adding it to the board-version of the MSCI forget my answer about that part of your post.

That's what i meant

We may consider (and if S&M Mods agree) to have a Sticky in S&M Forum for both group sign-up and article inclusion, similar to the one for community scripts. This way the MSCI Forum stays clean, a sanctuary of pure knowledge

I kinda like that solution. Letting everybody in would lead to the same "mess" as in the current S&M board (no offense ).

(i'd just like to find a few additional familiar faces in here, as for me i don't know anything at all about turrets, and very little about the "trade" section, hint hint).


@djrygar:

yeah there's a hell lot to say about signals. Between secondary signals that are fired sometimes 2 times for no reason, non working ones, and weirdly working ones (especially on stations). I should have kept notes on that matter now i think of it. Related topic will require a lot of trial and error.

[djrygar]

I should have kept notes on that matter now i think of it. Related topic will require a lot of trial and error.

well, I think this is what it may become. A scripter's notepad. Where we can post useful findings. If at least 5-10 people will be allowed to post things there, it may not share xais-corp fate

[apricotslice]

I'm not much good at scripting, but I can proofread what others post looking for any obvious issues, omissions or things that dont look right.

Also, I'd like to see a list of commands in alphabetical order of main command word.

If no one else does this as they build the main one, I can take what is done and redo a list that is alpha, linking back to the main list.

The idea being that someone looking for a command, scans down the alpha list, finds the command, clicks the link and then sees exactly where in the editor the command lives.

Depends how things are set up as to how that will work I guess.

[mark_a_condren]

Ketraar


Have we heard any more from the admins in regards to proceeding with the MSCI forum?

MarCon

[Ketraar]

Still waiting, hope to have news soon.

MFG

Ketraar

[s9ilent]

My general feed back on this, whilst I do think "something" can be done to improve the relay of information w.r.t the MSCI hand book, I do not think this is the best way as:


1. Xai corp's wiki is already easily accessibly (Although... I do find it some what laggy which is one of the reasons why I don't use it most of the time - thou this might be an Australia/peek time issue)
-You could argue that hey xai's corp's isn't updated frequently, but then I could answer with hey, update it your self (Go ask a question on the S&M forum, when you get a reply, stick in on Xai)



2. For people like me (Knows a fair bit about the S.E.) but has little time, I won't really spend 20 minutes, scrolling through all the threads (as presumably, each command will have its own thread)
Right now, all I can really do is semi occasionally read through the generic q's, and maybe skim through all the thread topics, looking maybe look at 1 or two threads that seem interesting (or have not been answered)



3. Separation of concerns?
Is the forum going to be for documenting script commands (Like Xai corp)?
Or questions about how to use them? (which IMHO, fulfills a criteria more like the generic questions forum)

Because if you start mixing the two, people will inevitable start cluttering up the thread, making important bits, lost within other misc questions. e.g. Someone might ask a generic question like "how do I open a menu" in the open menu command -and you will see this question many times- and the answer involves a tutorial which requires several commands, this will inevitably lead to questions about those commands (Do these questions go in this thread, or another thread?)
People generally also tend to be lazy as well, and will inevitable not follow established posting rules.



So in conclusion, IMHO, an additional forum based solution, is not the way to go. I think the current system: Xai corp for cold hard facts -albiet some.. many facts missing- and the S&M forum for discussions.
Although, I will stand by my previous comment in saying that a less laggy Xai corp would be nice; And that if people want more info on a command, ask about it here, then when they get a sufficient response, (or any response with more info) add that to Xai Corp






Other queries:
What will you do about topics that
a) Do not relate to specific commands e.g. Constants FLRET_Fire, datatypes, -the generic statement if while or and etc.
b) Things that relate to multiple script commands e.g. arrays, menus, commands,
c) Generic information e.g. Turrets do not have to face the ship to fire, turrets always fire with 100% accuracy if in firing range and arc


Although if you do go ahead with this, I think you should look at other good examples on the web. e.g. MSDN e.g. link (It's not community driven but I think it has a good break down of key components, thou it is lacking of a nested discussion section, but I guess they have separate forums for that)
(Note the inclusion of an example, in colored text!! not this hideous green code block, p.s. with the right schema, you can copy and paste and it will include colour tags.. thou it only works in firefox for some reason... e.g.
025 ||
026 ||$ware.vol = = get volume of ware $ware
027 ||skip if $ware.vol > 0
028 |||continue
029 ||
030 ||$amt = $matrix[$main][$sub]
031 ||skip if $amt > 0
032 |||continue
033 ||
034 ||$total.vol = $total.vol + $amt * $ware.vol
035 |end
036 end

(in Internet explorer it does this... don't know why...)
__007_ _____skip if ___$matrix _
It just adds double underscores at the start and single end of each colour tag..

[Serial Kicked]

Thanks for giving voice to my point. Yeah i know i have already registered, but hey i'm not gonna be let out of a board because i don't really believe in it. I'll try at least to provide some relatively unknown data to this board no matter the final result.

Like i already said, the best method is to provide a wiki on the egosoft website, you can even apply the same restricting rules as for the board. But don't give me the bandwidth "apology" again. A wiki would indeed save both bandwidth and CPU time as it doesn't even need to be linked to the database and as it would save search request on the board (not even speaking of wiki cache and other bandwidth saving features included in most wiki CMS). This excuse is as invalid as the "we're using PHPBB 2.0" apology. Update the board, and don't tell you can't because of your security plugin that already let pass every adbot i can think of is not 3.0 ready, seriously

(and, btw, do you realize that each time someone link to the X2 msci handbook he gets a tons of "thank you"? You've hidden your best method to teach noobs how to deal with the engine somewhere in the bonus download section of an outdated game. Could you at least correct this?).

1. Xai corp's wiki is already easily accessibly (Although... I do find it some what laggy which is one of the reasons why I don't use it most of the time - thou this might be an Australia/peek time issue)
-You could argue that hey xai's corp's isn't updated frequently, but then I could answer with hey, update it your self (Go ask a question on the S&M forum, when you get a reply, stick in on Xai)

It's slow everywhere, blame the hosting company basically. I do host a private wiki (that will use whatever data is produced on the board), and eventually make it public. The issue being that i'm unsure to be able to maintain the website (IRL issues) and need a valid secondary webmaster to maintain the thing in case i go offline for a long period of time, i won't give the codes to an user for obvious reasons (not traceable), but i could to a mod i know.

2. For people like me (Knows a fair bit about the S.E.) but has little time, I won't really spend 20 minutes, scrolling through all the threads (as presumably, each command will have its own thread)

Granted we can put our own 'sticky' topics it could be fairly readable. Like i stated above, one sticky per category + one sticky to link to the basics (basic 'if/while' syntax, how the scripts are giving the hand to one to another instead of running simultaneously, sleep command) + another one to link to more advanced data (signals, priorities...). Imho it's not the biggest flaw.

3. Separation of concerns?
Is the forum going to be for documenting script commands (Like Xai corp)? Or questions about how to use them? (which IMHO, fulfills a criteria more like the generic questions forum)

From what i understand it's a selection of knowledgeable people who write in there, standard members have only read access. That's good for me (avoid the usual flood), but it has nearly no interest if you, Gazz, LV, Lucike, and a few others don't join.

For the rest, i don't care much about the color code, decide for yourself i'll adapt. I'm more interested in correcting mistakes and copying data than respecting whatever color scheme you like


Meh, after hitting the preview button, I seem angry and i wonder if i should edit my post or not. Erm, let's say i apologize if i have hurt your feelings. I'm not angry, i'd just like what's best for the modding community.

[Ketraar]

There will not be any Wiki or anything other on the ES site. Not time, no one to do it, not going to happen, get over it

Best we can do is to arrange a forum and as we already discussed or don't do it here. But we were passt that, we're not going to discuss it again, the request was to have it on the ES boards and not somewhere else, so that's what we came up with. All I'm waiting on is the get the go ahead from Admin so the forum and group can be created.

As for how its going to be formatted, its up to the people doing the thing.

MFG

Ketraar

[Serial Kicked]

NP, I'm just speaking my mind.

I will contribute to the board as stated before. No matter if i don't like the method. Don't blame me for trying to be useful

[Ketraar]

Forum is set up and so is the group. Users that stated here or in the German topic that they would like be part of it were added to the group.

Lets get this thing started then

MFG

Ketraar

PS.: People can still apply to help, there might be a sticky for it in future, but for now do it here.

Edit: You can find the forum here (visible to group members only for now)