YAMT - Yet Another Multiplayer Topic

Gigaros · Post by **Gigaros** » Wed, 24. Feb 10, 12:40

Before we start this isn't another thread wining about the lack of multiplayer in the X series of games, this is more of a discussion.

Also this is my first post so a little about me first...

I've not tried modding with X as of yet, played X2 a fair bit though, I've been making games as part of my university course and tbh my time is mostly spent doing things like Neural Nets as I'm aiming to do a masters degree in AI for games.

So...

Back to the topic, just what is doable in terms of modding X for multiplayer?

I once had a mod for Oblivion which required some python stuffs and an external program which essentially manipulated a bot in the game according to what the other player did.

Is such a thing not possible for the X series of games?

Also, if the publishers are not kind enough to provide the money for multiplayer why not leave it to the modding community? For example releasing the source or part of the source under the GPL license... ( I think its that, I always get it mixed up with GNU for some reason XD ).

I have a 6 month break and I could do with something to keep me occupied in the mean time ^_^

Post by **Xenon_Slayer** » Wed, 24. Feb 10, 12:43

This really belongs in the scripts and modding forum, so I'll move it over. I do this that this subject also pops up quite often. I don't think anything tangible has ever come out of it. Still, I'm always amazed at what some of these guys can do.

Gigaros · Post by **Gigaros** » Wed, 24. Feb 10, 12:46

Yeah good point I should have posted it there!

I've seen a few of these posts myself but they are normally people complaining at the devs instead of doing something about it themselves.

I'm hoping to mod one of the X3 games when I can be bothered to go the shop lol.

jlehtone · Post by **jlehtone** » Wed, 24. Feb 10, 12:51

Considering that you claim to have seen earlier posts (like this), and hopefully the [url=http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=216696][b]T[/b][b]C[/b] [b]S[/b]&M Posting [b]R[/b]ules[/url] too, what was left uncertain?

Gigaros · Post by **Gigaros** » Wed, 24. Feb 10, 12:55

The fact that I've not seen multiplayer topics actually discussing the possibilities. Like I said I've only seen topics of people complaining at the devs for no multiplayer.

I want to open up a discussion and get modders to talk about what is possible internally and maybe if there was some sort of external possibility like the mod I saw in oblivion.

I'm new to the forums and multiplayer is a good enough reason for me to start modding

enenra · Post by **enenra** » Wed, 24. Feb 10, 13:06

We have at least one of these topics a month since X2 (5 years à 12 months). Each and every time it has been dropped since it is not possible. This will be no different.

Oblivion had been mentioned a lot of times as well in that context, btw. Doesn't change anything though.

Killjaeden · Post by **Killjaeden** » Wed, 24. Feb 10, 13:15

The fact that I've not seen multiplayer topics actually discussing the possibilities. Like I said I've only seen topics of people complaining at the devs for no multiplayer.

*sigh*

http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=243321

Gigaros · Post by **Gigaros** » Wed, 24. Feb 10, 13:15

Well then call me stubborn

I've got 6 months to do what I can...

I didn't realise the oblivion thing had been mentioned before my apologies.

Is anyone going to discuss any theories they had or point me at some projects that have been attempted and failed? Or is everyone just going to tell me its not possible and be done with it?

P.S. It's not like I'm asking the community to do this for me, once I get a copy of the game I'll give it a shot.

Gigaros · Post by **Gigaros** » Wed, 24. Feb 10, 13:17

Thanks for the link will have a nose

Gigaros · Post by **Gigaros** » Wed, 24. Feb 10, 13:46

Hmm...

I still think its possible... Sorry to anyone who gets offended by these types of threads popping up.

I'm gonna start by creating a blank universe. Maybe 3 sectors tops, just for testing. Then I'll work on the client/server stuff and essentially work towards a LAN mode.

MMO is too much, regardless I only really want a LAN...

Have faith and watch this space. I may suprise you yet. In the mean time I need to keep researching the other topics.

X2-Eliah · Post by **X2-Eliah** » Wed, 24. Feb 10, 15:08

As far as I recall, there was a rather serious thread on this a while back.. There it was determined that for in-sector play, you'd need a monstrous upload/download speeds (constant) to maintain accurate positioning and data linkage, especially syncing bullet & ship positions between two clients.

Gigaros · Post by **Gigaros** » Wed, 24. Feb 10, 15:18

Yes I've been looking at that ( if its the same thread ) and I'm going to ask for the original project and see what I can do.

I like the way people keep saying eve manages it but then again, doesn't EVE have a black hole full of lagged ships and players trying to trade ^_^

Anyways on a LAN the bandwidth is greater and sending distance doesn't become a problem. If I can get it to work in a 3 sector universe, I'll start expanding and throwing as much in until my computer lags to death just to get an idea of the scale.

If data transmission becomes a problem then I'll consider an approach which allows for small duels and player to player trading etc. I'll see what I can do.

Oh another thing I saw was a community sector. I like that idea, allowing players to only have one ship in the sector might be a solution, not really the X experience I know but a solution at least.

enenra · Post by **enenra** » Wed, 24. Feb 10, 15:37

Yes, but EVE is totally different from X. There is a very good reason why EVE has WoW controls instead of using real controls like X.
That's what makes all the difference. One time receiving a command to fly somewhere vs. constantly checking whether the player uses the keys, where the player faces to, etc. etc.

reddaggerz · Post by **reddaggerz** » Wed, 24. Feb 10, 15:41

You know, Sins of a Solar Empire does lan play, I don't see why this game can't. There's just as much action in ships alone on that game. You can't really compare EvE because their individual ship RoF's is very slow and now with weapon grouping, its even slower. Plus final hit/miss calculations are made server side (because my missles always rubberband to the target at the last moment)

Gigaros · Post by **Gigaros** » Wed, 24. Feb 10, 15:43

I agree totally enenra, I'm currently brainstorming ways around the problem like player and ship caps e.g. 20 ships per sector etc etc. But it's all idea work atm tbh.

Even allowing for de-synching is an option. Phantasy Star Online ( for those that don't know, its not a space sim, google it ) is notorious for being out of synch but me and my friends still have an enjoyable time playing it.

red... it's not as simple, Sins is played out on a 2D plane, X is ful 3D meaning a huge bandwidth overhead

Post by **Cycrow** » Wed, 24. Feb 10, 15:44

true multiplayer simply isn't possible, this would be things like player v player combat.

the main problem is how to sync both player ships in each game.

the only way to really get multiplayer working, would be to have a set of scripts that write data about the current universe to a log file, and other scripts to read in text files to make changes to the universe.

you have a client application running in the background that reads the log file and sends the data to the server, and receives any data from the server and creates the text files to load into the game.

there are 2 main problems with this.
1) The scripting engine only has so much control over the universe, and it has little ability to control a ship directly. It can tell it to move, but it cant control how it moves.
you can tell the ship to fire, but theres no way to properly sync all the bullets/missiles so its the same in both games

2) Lag, due to the fact you have to read and write data to and from text files, this isn't exactly quick, and more data would have to be sent than in your average multiplayer game because its text.

The amount of bandwidth or speed doesn't help here, as the lag is from the game actually reading and processing the data, rather than the time it takes for the data to get between clients

both of these reason make it not possible to do player v player combat in any kind of accurate way.

If you really want to do a multiplayer game of some kind, then u could sync 2 universes together, just the AI controlled ships and stations, and ignore the current players ship

enenra · Post by **enenra** » Wed, 24. Feb 10, 15:50

reddaggerz wrote:You know, Sins of a Solar Empire does lan play, I don't see why this game can't. There's just as much action in ships alone on that game. You can't really compare EvE because their individual ship RoF's is very slow and now with weapon grouping, its even slower. Plus final hit/miss calculations are made server side (because my missles always rubberband to the target at the last moment)

SoaSE can even less be compared to X.

That's like saying "Pong has multiplayer so it has to be possible for X as well!" or "An apple tastes good when combined with cookies therefore a stone will also taste good when combining it with cookies."

Gigaros · Post by **Gigaros** » Wed, 24. Feb 10, 15:52

Interesting and very good points...

I have to admit true multiplayer isn't going to work. But having something is better than nothing right? I'm not going to aim for a full multiplayer experience cause I'm not exactly a team of modding experts ^_^

But the synching universes idea is ok with me. I just want to see what I can do

@ enenra

lamoyja · Post by **lamoyja** » Wed, 24. Feb 10, 15:57

remove all npc's and stations and it should be possible.

If you want good multiplayer space combat, try out the evochron games.

Not quite as immersive in that you can't control a trade empire, but its got the space combat and its got really nice physics controls.

Gigaros · Post by **Gigaros** » Wed, 24. Feb 10, 16:02

lamoyja... Good idea but Cycrow is right. There is still the underlying problem that the players have to wait for files to be written and read. NPCs have at least a semi-reliable system because the AI is "likely" to make the same decision for different players...

I'm going to try on a simple 3 sector empty universe with only a small amount of objects to test with... which is slightly similar to what you are saying.

Does anyone know if it would be possible to directly read from the other players logfile providing they are connected via LAN? i.e. instead of sending the data just read from DavesPC/C:/Program Files etc etc.