[MOD] Slightly More Useful Plot Station (27.02.2015; 3.60 and Linux-compatible)

[w.evans]

@Rubini Unfortunately most likely, yes. It changes the actual component that is built in place of the silicon wafer plant. It should be possible to splice it in to an existing save, though. But I don't know how.

[Rubini]

@Rubini Unfortunately most likely, yes. It changes the actual component that is built in place of the silicon wafer plant. It should be possible to splice it in to an existing save, though. But I don't know how.

Hummm ... three questions then:
1. I have a save game where the URV Wharf isn´t ready (exactly because at that point I yet have not all needed fusion reactors), but the CV is already in place with an architect just waiting for the necessary resources to go on. Is this a good save point?

2. If the player is already a bit ahead or just have a save game ahead of that point...isn´t possible to just build a new URV Wharf (this one on this mod)? Perhaps recycling or destroying the first one, and then build this new one? A new CV will be needed?

3. These changes in this base build plant and also the wares (type and quantity) necessary to build drones and also the time to build them will not affect any other similar facility on the game?

[w.evans]

1. I have a save game where the URV Wharf isn´t ready (exactly because at that point I yet have not all needed fusion reactors), but the CV is already in place with an architect just waiting for the necessary resources to go on. Is this a good save point?

I'd be interested to see if this would work, but I suspect that it would need a save from before the Architect is ordered to build the station.

2. If the player is already a bit ahead or just have a save game ahead of that point...isn´t possible to just build a new URV Wharf (this one on this mod)? Perhaps recycling or destroying the first one, and then build this new one? A new CV will be needed?

No. As far as I know (could be wrong) the plot station (Intergrative URV Forge) can only be built by the special CV that you get during the plot. You can't get that CV any other way. (Well, at least no way in-game.)

3. These changes in this base build plant and also the wares (type and quantity) necessary to build drones and also the time to build them will not affect any other similar facility on the game?

The drone production line, and the station-building-stuff production line are unique to the plot station. All other stations and production lines are not changed whatsoever. (That is, unless Egosoft later decides to expand the production lines that use a method defined as method="DeVries" If they do, then this will have to be updated. And that update will be code only, so it'll be save compatible.)

By the way, easiest way to test this or simply try it out, as YorrickVander so kindly suggested, is by using his DeVries Freelancer gamestart which can be downloaded at the Steam Workshop.

[Sparky Sparkycorp]

How is container storage looking with the latest changes?

[w.evans]

Testing it now. Looks ok. With Yorrick's fully-built station, and full of resources ("full" as set by the limits in the game itself), still had around 550 thousand cubic meters free container space. Bulk was a bit tight, but fits with space for a few loads of Refined Metals which are now promptly being eaten by the other production lines.

Full resource loads are set by the game as:
<ware ware="energycells" amount="81140"/>
<ware ware="ore" amount="114172"/>
<ware ware="silicon" amount="73476"/>
<ware ware="crystals" amount="38637"/>
<ware ware="nividium" amount="41963"/>
<ware ware="foodrations" amount="46455"/>

edit: sorry, meant ~550km^3

[w.evans]

A few screenies after a few minutes of accelerated testing: (hope they're not too big)

http://i.imgur.com/XEDscEy.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/TcDcOTm.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/IexBrpF.jpg

(hm. maybe they were too big? but they still have img tags.)

{Images posted directly to the forums should not be greater than 640x480 or 100kb, oversize image now linked - Terre}

[Rubini]

1. I have a save game where the URV Wharf isn´t ready (exactly because at that point I yet have not all needed fusion reactors), but the CV is already in place with an architect just waiting for the necessary resources to go on. Is this a good save point?

I'd be interested to see if this would work, but I suspect that it would need a save from before the Architect is ordered to build the station.

I´m testing it now. More on this later!

[Sparky Sparkycorp]

Images look promising

Noob question: Is the fact that Yorrick's station is build in a game start different to a the station being built in an existing save game?

[w.evans]

Hi Sparky,

Shouldn't be different, but we won't know for sure until we test it. (I most certainly hope that it isn't different, because my main game is quite a ways yet from building the plot station.) Unfortunately, I don't have a save anywhere close to building the plot station, so I can't test it myself. It would depend on when the components are written into the save. I doubt that that's done upon game start, although it's certainly possible. Best guess is that the components are set when the station is ordered to be built.

If it turns out that the station WITHOUT fusion reactors and bio-optic wiring production is preferred, do let me know. Should be reversible without having to load to prior to building the station. (testing that now. -edit: Huh. Sorry, was wrong about that. Turns out the component's production is written in the save file. It could be converted to producing just RMP, or something else, but requires editing the save, or loading to before the station is built -- before that component is written into the save. Not an extensive edit, though. It's stored like this:)

Code: Select all

<production start="2.25717" item="0" cycle="0" state="waitingforresources">
<efficiency product="1.25013"/>
<queue>
<item ware="bioopticwiring" method="devries"/>
<item ware="fusionreactor" method="devries"/>
<item ware="reinforcedmetalplating" method="devries"/>
</queue>
</production>

edit: by the way, confirmed that the time units are in seconds. So 3600 = 1 hour, 2400 = 40 minutes, 1800 = 30 minutes, 600 = 10 minutes

Should we rebalance it such that it's less wasteful -- actually profitable -- but low output?

edit: Instructions for splicing it into an existing save coming right up.

[w.evans]

To splice the changes here into a save:
(and, incidentally, it looks like editing the save this way makes it possible to change the production of any station)

Search for:

Code: Select all

<component class="station" macro="struct_bt_dv_drone_complex_macro" connection="space" owner="player"

This will find the beginning of the plot station.

........
IF your first silicon wafer plant is already built:

Replace:

Code: Select all

<connection connection="connectionfor_struct_econ_prod_siliconwavers_macro" macro="connectionfor_struct_econ_prod_siliconwavers_macro">
<component class="production" macro="struct_econ_prod_siliconwavers_macro" connection="space" id="[0x12f7d]">
<offset default="1"/>
<production start="2.24164" item="0" cycle="0" state="waitingforresources">
<efficiency product="1.23788"/>
<queue ware="siliconwafers"/>
</production>

with

Code: Select all

<connection connection="connectionfor_struct_econ_prod_smups_rmp_macro" macro="connectionfor_struct_econ_prod_smups_rmp_macro">
<component class="production" macro="struct_econ_prod_smups_rmp_macro" connection="space" id="[0x12f7d]">
<offset default="1"/>
<production start="2.25717" item="0" cycle="0" state="waitingforresources">
<efficiency product="1.25013"/>
<queue>
<item ware="bioopticwiring" method="devries"/>
<item ware="fusionreactor" method="devries"/>
<item ware="reinforcedmetalplating" method="devries"/>
</queue>
</production>

Important things to note here:

1. some of those numbers could be different in your save. would advise simply searching for

struct_econ_prod_siliconwavers

to find this section.

2. VERY IMPORTANT: note that id="[0xyyyyy]" should be the same post-edit. So copy that first, and paste it in notepad, for pasting back in after the splice.

Next, if your second silicon wafer plant is already built, replace:

Code: Select all

<connection connection="connectionfor_struct_econ_prod_siliconwavers_macro1" macro="connectionfor_struct_econ_prod_siliconwavers_macro1">
<component class="production" macro="struct_econ_prod_siliconwavers_macro" connection="space" id="[0x130b9]">
<offset default="1"/>
<production start="2.24164" item="0" cycle="0" state="waitingforresources">
<efficiency product="1.29573"/>
<queue ware="siliconwafers"/>
</production>

with

Code: Select all

<connection connection="connectionfor_struct_econ_prod_smups_rmp_macro1" macro="connectionfor_struct_econ_prod_smups_rmp_macro1">
<component class="production" macro="struct_econ_prod_smups_rmp_macro" connection="space" id="[0x130b9]">
<offset default="1"/>
<production start="2.25717" item="1" cycle="0" state="waitingforresources">
<efficiency product="1.12"/>
<queue>
<item ware="bioopticwiring" method="devries"/>
<item ware="fusionreactor" method="devries"/>
<item ware="reinforcedmetalplating" method="devries"/>
</queue>
</production>

And that takes care of the station-construction-stuff-builder-thingies.

........
IF the drone production line/s is/are already built:

Replace:

Code: Select all

<queue ware="drp_interceptor_mk1" method="devries"/>

with

Code: Select all

<queue>
<item ware="drp_surfaceminer_mk1" method="devries"/>
<item ware="drp_scoopcollector_mk1" method="devries"/>
<item ware="drp_interceptor_mk1" method="devries"/>
<item ware="drp_construction" method="devries"/>
<item ware="drp_cargolifter" method="devries"/>
</queue>

If your plot station is fully built, then you should have two instances of that. Change both of them if you want both drone production lines to switch production between those five drones.

(NB. Interesting how the <item ware ... /> entries are written into the save file in reverse order compared to how they were written in the diff.)

_____
Goes without saying, but just to be clear, these changes will not take effect without this mod being installed. Doing the first couple of edits will make your silicon wafer plant disappear since you won't have the SMUPS fab installed (so that fab wouldn't exist in your in-game universe). The last set of changes (with the drones) will use the default (Albion) production method because the devries method for all of the drones other than the interceptor_mk1 is defined in this mod.

But, yeah, lots of possibilities here for playing around with station production, a lot of them not necessitating any changes in the code. It would appear that the changes in production done via save-edit are not overridden by changes in the code. (Unfortunately for me, but good for most of us who like to play around with the code, I think. If this weren't true, than this mod would be a lot more save friendly.)

[Sparky Sparkycorp]

Ah, sorry, hadn't realised you were not close to the plot station point. I'll upload a couple of saves this evening. I have one from just before the CV is deployed and one from just after the initial stage is completed that should help. I used about 10 smallish mods (4 of yours) that I hoped wouldn't interfere with this mod testing. Will list with the saves.

Observations:
1. URV Forge delpoyed in 0.002 (without stage 1 complete) worked in 0.003.

2. URV Forge with Stage 1 Completed in 0.03 corectly offers Recog Fab in 0.10.

Regarding the earlier production times question, yeah, I think the units are seconds.

With regards RMP vs "bits of each", I don't have a firm view at the moment and I'm happy to see where this project ends up. In general though:

1. The RM from the first RM stage should probably be used up [inefficently] by the RMP and FR stages (it may be the case already?) to avoid clogging up the bulk storage and to keep the station focused on self sufficiency and station construction components. Then if the player wants more, the second stage offers that. Or maybe require both stsges for both the RMP and FR if that feels better.

2. I'm a bit nervous about trying to store 9 different container goods as I'd imagine there's a reasonable likelihood that one or two won't sell well and clog up storage. Still, at least we try to export surpless or transfer surplus to Gigurums and sell them but it might fell a bit cheaty. Maybe the recyling mod can help with that.

3. If it was just RMP produced, I think it would help planning rebuilding if it produced [inefficiently] at a normal rate so that a player would easily understand what was going on compared to other stations. Not crucial though since I don't think all top tier wares are consumed in the same proportions across ships and stations.

[w.evans]

Thanks for the excellent report, Sparks!

I used about 10 smallish mods (4 of yours) that I hoped wouldn't interfere with this mod testing. Will list with the saves.

I don't think there's anything else that mods the plot station (is there?). Should be compatible with everything that doesn't mod the plot station, or add wares produced via method="devries"

If anything does add wares produced via method="devries" then either they'll both be written into the code, or one will overwrite the other; but, in any case, only one or the other will be used, so still shouldn't cause any conflicts.

Observations:
1. URV Forge delpoyed in 0.002 (without stage 1 complete) worked in 0.003.

2. URV Forge with Stage 1 Completed in 0.03 corectly offers Recog Fab in 0.10.

VERY good news! Means that particular components aren't written anywhere until those particular components are actually built! Thanks for this!

With regards RMP vs "bits of each", I don't have a firm view at the moment and I'm happy to see where this project ends up.

Neither do I, at the moment. Having some serious second thoughts about just how inefficient this station's production is. It's possible that, at the way the production lines are set up at the moment, it'll lose money just from the energy and food rations costs. Maybe lower the energy and food rations requirements (since we'll be buying those until we get those respective factories up and running), and increase the mineables? Or leave the mineables as is, already uses plenty.

In general though:

1. The RM from the first RM stage should probably be used up [inefficently] by the RMP and FR stages (it may be the case already?) to avoid clogging up the bulk storage and to keep the station focused on self sufficiency and station construction components. Then if the player wants more, the second stage offers that. Or maybe require both stsges for both the RMP and FR if that feels better.

Yup. Already the case. A single refined metals line produces roughly 0.333 units per second. A dedicated RMP line eats up 0.333 units of RM per second, while a dedicated fusion reactor line eats up 0.033 units per second. Since the smups unit switches between RMP, fusion reactors, and bio-optic wiring (which doesn't use any RM), it will tend to make a small surplus of RM per cycle. But having just a single RM line servicing two smups units should result in a deficit in RM.

edit: sorry, bungled the math on this. Just calculated again, and it turns out that two fully functioning smups lines will still use less RM than will be produced by a single RM line. Will increase RM usage by increasing usage per cycle, or making cycles faster, in the next update.

2. I'm a bit nervous about trying to store 9 different container goods as I'd imagine there's a reasonable likelihood that one or two won't sell well and clog up storage. Still, at least we try to export surpless or transfer surplus to Gigurums and sell them but it might fell a bit cheaty. Maybe the recyling mod can help with that.

Was nervous about this too. And was ready to add custom storage components with increased capacity. But did a test where I accelerated all of the production lines, and filled the station with resources, and just let it run until all of the resources were exhausted. Ended up with plenty of container space. Thing is, the only resource that uses container space is food rations. Everything else except energy is bulk, and conveniently, the plot station has plenty (4+ million cubic meters) of bulk storage if the storage is maxed out. Don't know how it's going to run in-game though, where the player would, presumably, set up to keep the station at max supply. Let me know if any problems are hit storage-wise.

3. If it was just RMP produced, I think it would help planning rebuilding if it produced [inefficiently] at a normal rate so that a player would easily understand what was going on compared to other stations. Not crucial though since I don't think all top tier wares are consumed in the same proportions across ships and stations.

Am having second thoughts about this. Especially since the fusion reactor line is the most resource intensive, and not having enough resources to service that line would prevent the production line from shifting, thus halting the production of bio-optic wiring and reinforced metal plating as well. And I just found out that it isn't reversible without save edit (sorry about that).

In the meantime, I could upload a variant where the smups line produces just RMP. I hope that opinions will be clearer when the time comes to update though, because maintaining two or more variants of this will be prone to errors, especially since the difference between the two variants is precisely that part of the mod that has to be packed in a subst.cat/dat

[w.evans]

10.Feb.2015 - Slightly More Useful Plot Station v0.10_Sparky_Sparkycorp is up!

This variant is identical to v0.10, except it does not produce Bio-optic Wiring and Fusion Reactors. Could be more predictable since the Material Fabricator won't switch production, producing only Reinforced Metal Plating.

[Sparky Sparkycorp]

Thanks very much for the detailed reply

Thanks also for uploading the other version. I’ll have a play and think about that this evening. As I think with you, I recon focusing on one version shortly would be best.

A single refined metals line produces roughly 0.333 units per second. A dedicated RMP line eats up 0.333 units of RM per second, while a dedicated fusion reactor line eats up 0.033 units per second. Since the smups unit switches between RMP, fusion reactors, and bio-optic wiring (which doesn't use any RM), it will tend to make a small surplus of RM per cycle. But having just a single RM line servicing two smups units should result in a deficit in RM.

Thanks for breaking that down - didn't have time while travelling earlier. How about shifting the RMP and FR rates to .222 to keep things matched? Producing an excess would require selling outside DV or further stations in DV (that I would guess would prefer to use a different rates to the surplus).

Thing is, the only resource that uses container space is food rations. Everything else except energy is bulk

I'm new to stations so I don't understand them that well yet. Do resources and products share the same storage allocations? If they do (my assumption) then is perhaps the main problem with clogging stations an unbalanced supply of resources?

Having some serious second thoughts about just how inefficient this station's production is. It's possible that, at the way the production lines are set up at the moment, it'll lose money just from the energy and food rations costs. Maybe lower the energy and food rations requirements (since we'll be buying those until we get those respective factories up and running), and increase the mineables? Or leave the mineables as is, already uses plenty.

Hmm, I guess I would suggest lowering the food costs then. Maybe energy but it doesn’t cost as much, there is plenty of DV supply, and I can imagine a process needing more energy more easily than more food. I think it would feel nicer if the process tended to need more time (for mining) rather than supplemental income for external food production. Similarly, nicer/smoother if it breaks even/turns a profit rather than needing cash injections from the player and/or drone sales.

[w.evans]

Thanks for breaking that down - didn't have time while travelling earlier. How about shifting the RMP and FR rates to .222 to keep things matched? Producing an excess would require selling outside DV or further stations in DV (that I would guess would prefer to use a different rates to the surplus).

Could. Could actually calculate it so that a complete smups cycle [RMP->FR->BOW] would eat up all of the RM produced by one line in that same amount of time. Would be very efficient, though. Hm. Gameplay vs Immersion question. Hate having to choose between the two.

edit: Also, I find that inequalities and instabilities in production vs consumption are good for profitsss in the big picture. Refined Metals production, in this case, uses the vanilla configuration, so that would be the one product that is likely to be profitable, if enough buyers could be found.

Do resources and products share the same storage allocations?

Yup

If they do (my assumption) then is perhaps the main problem with clogging stations an unbalanced supply of resources?

You mean the problems voiced out in the main forum? To the best of my knowledge, the only production lines that switch production in vanilla are the Albion and Omicron URV production lines. Problem there would be more likely uneven sales and use. Once all of your ships and stations are full of drones, you'll have no further use for them except sale, and that will depend on supply and demand. It is possible to clog up the storage space with so much product that you can't fit any resources in, thus halting production, but that would be true of any production line. It's compounded in cases where production switches, though, because you probably won't need all of the products produced in the same proportion as how they're produced.

That said, it probably won't be the case with the smups line since BOW, FR, and RMP are all high demand, low supply goods which are used in station construction. Problem's more likely to occur with the drone production lines, like in vanilla.

Hmm, I guess I would suggest lowering the food costs then. Maybe energy but it doesn’t cost as much, there is plenty of DV supply, and I can imagine a process needing more energy more easily than more food. I think it would feel nicer if the process tended to need more time (for mining) rather than supplemental income for external food production. Similarly, nicer/smoother if it breaks even/turns a profit rather than needing cash injections from the player and/or drone sales.

Good ideas, but I suggest that we see how it plays out first. Luckily, this side of the mod doesn't affect, and isn't affected by, the save file, so we could alter this on the fly.

Am more concerned about having ample storage because altering that in a way that doesn't affect other stations would require loading to before the station is built all over again.

[Sparky Sparkycorp]

Hm. Gameplay vs Immersion question. Hate having to choose between the two.

Fair enough. For me, I imagine it to be immerse for the inefficiencies to be around the conversion of the raw materials into the RM and the phantom intermediates like microchips. Once RM is created, I don't see a problem with it being efficiently used in RMP/FR/BOW production since I believe each economy already uses materials with 100% efficiency.

edit: Also, I find that inequalities and instabilities in production vs consumption are good for profitsss in the big picture. Refined Metals production, in this case, uses the vanilla configuration, so that would be the one product that is likely to be profitable, if enough buyers could be found.

Yeah, although I think it would need selling outside DV or shifting to a initially unbuilt player station in DV. Not bad of itself but shifts the concept of the station back towards the vanilla state a bit and away from the original concept of it doing something useful independently of other systems.

Am more concerned about having ample storage because altering that in a way that doesn't affect other stations would require loading to before the station is built all over again.

Another noob question: If you potentially wished to alter the balance of bulk vs. container storage, would it not be possible to adjust this via tweaking the expansion option unique to the plot Forge? It has bulk options IIRC. Maybe they could serve as a template? Sorry if I am misunderstanding the problems and/or possible solutions.

[w.evans]

Fair enough. For me, I imagine it to be immerse for the inefficiencies to be around the conversion of the raw materials into the RM and the phantom intermediates like microchips. Once RM is created, I don't see a problem with it being efficiently used in RMP/FR/BOW production since I believe each economy already uses materials with 100% efficiency. [...] Yeah, although I think it would need selling outside DV or shifting to a initially unbuilt player station in DV. Not bad of itself but shifts the concept of the station back towards the vanilla state a bit and away from the original concept of it doing something useful independently of other systems.

That's true. And I just found that I bungled the RM usage calculations, and it turns out that two smups lines will use less RM than will be produced by a single RM line. Will increase RM usage in the next update by either increasing RM usage per cycle, or making smups cycles faster. Sorry about that. Will have to sit on it for a while.

Another noob question: If you potentially wished to alter the balance of bulk vs. container storage, would it not be possible to adjust this via tweaking the expansion option unique to the plot Forge? It has bulk options IIRC. Maybe they could serve as a template? Sorry if I am misunderstanding the problems and/or possible solutions.

To keep it save-friendly, will necessitate altering the storage capacities of all stations in the universe that use the same storage components. It is possible to make it affect only the plot station, but that would require making custom storage components that would be used only in the plot station (and possibly selected future stations that we design, if we decide to go down that route), and would not be save-friendly. Would also require loading to before those components are built.

[w.evans]

Juicy numbers for you today. Did some calculations, and it turns out that the station's surprisingly profitable, even with the inflated inputs and lowered outputs. Helps that almost everything's mined. It's not going to break the bank, but no one's going to hemorrhage cash either.

(using code flags to maintain the spacing and hopefully keep it sort of readable)

Code: Select all

                          Price min / Unit     Price Max / Unit  Output / Cycle  Min Cost / Unit Max Cost / Unit
Bio-optic Wiring          1827                 2125              25              476.8           848.8          
Fusion Reactors           27310                31421             10              3408            5946           
Reinforced Metal Plating  4506                 5185              15              869.33          1461.33        
Refined Metals            137                  185               200             32.8            55.6           
                                                                                                                
                          Min Profit / Cycle      Max Profit / Cycle                                            
Bio-optic Wiring          24455                   41205                                                         
Fusion Reactors           213640                  280130                                                        
Reinforced Metal Plating  45670                   64735                                                         
Refined Metals            16280                   30440

All figures assume that all mineable resources are mined by the player, and only Energy Cells and Food Rations are purchased.

Working on reworking the internal usage of Refined Metals now.

[Rubini]

Juicy numbers for you today. Did some calculations, and it turns out that the station's surprisingly profitable, even with the inflated inputs and lowered outputs. Helps that almost everything's mind. It's not going to break the bank, but no one's going to hemorrhage cash either.

(using code flags to maintain the spacing and hopefully keep it sort of readable)

Code: Select all

                          Price min / Unit     Price Max / Unit  Output / Cycle  Min Cost / Unit Max Cost / Unit
Bio-optic Wiring          1827                 2125              25              476.8           848.8          
Fusion Reactors           27310                31421             10              3408            5946           
Reinforced Metal Plating  4506                 5185              15              869.33          1461.33        
Refined Metals            137                  185               200             32.8            55.6           
                                                                                                                
                          Min Profit / Cycle      Max Profit / Cycle                                            
Bio-optic Wiring          24455                   41205                                                         
Fusion Reactors           213640                  280130                                                        
Reinforced Metal Plating  45670                   64735                                                         
Refined Metals            16280                   30440

All figures assume that all mineable resources are mined by the player, and only Energy Cells and Food Rations are purchased.

Working on reworking the internal usage of Refined Metals now.

Is the above with v0.10 or with v0.10_Sparky_Sparkycorp?

[w.evans]

That's with v0.10. With v0.10_Sparky_Sparkycorp, it's all of the above, except no bio-optic wiring nor fusion reactors.

Just reconfigured internal Refined Metals usage to tend to leave only 45 units of surplus per hour. Please do keep in mind that, with it configured this way, your stocks of Refined Metals will probably stay very low, so your manager's going to want to buy it at very high prices unless you intervene.

Uploading v0.11 and v0.11s now.

edit: wait, sorry, just remembered that without fusion reactor and bio-optic wiring production, reinforced metal plating production will eat up all of the refined metals your refined metals foundry can churn out, so the Sparky_Sparkycorp variant will stay at v0.10 for now.

Increased internal Refined Metals usage is the only change between v0.10 and v0.11

edit: aaaaand Nexus is down.