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CBJ
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PostPosted: Mon, 17. Apr 06, 10:54    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Skeeter wrote:
Just woundering if it wasnt reproducable for ES and they couldnt fix it or it was classes as a very very minor bug/glitch that they used there time on other things.

A bit of both. The problem is that video timings seem to vary from hardware to hardware. What works fine on one PC shows brief flashes of the next video on the stream on another. It was too consider minor to spend weeks chasing round to find out exactly why it happened and on which hardware and work out how to prevent it.

Regarding your mouse, it would certainly help if you could try a different mouse as that would eliminate the mouse as a problem. The game can only work with the input signals it gets, and clearly it is not getting them quickly enough, but the question is why?

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PostPosted: Mon, 17. Apr 06, 14:06    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

I agree with almost all of the above.


in the ship list the location title is not needed, instead the sector name must be in the central field on the same line of the ship name.
ship order in the list must not change.
best would be to order them by hand to have automated ones bottom and most used at the top of the list.

Interface must be always on while loading sector. make the game multitask please, use windows windows for cameras for example.

port game to macosX

in FRENCH no way to see how much cargo space is free - or used

gravidar is not very helpful was better in x2

add ability to rotate the sector map with mouse

your menus are well designed for touchscreen, but i do not have one ...

add mobile mining

make space continuous, fly possible from a sector to another without gates, but exermely long.

why not being able to create a new sector by buying gates...

opaque gaz sectors are too opage, clouds are too small
and move too fast, space is more transparent than that.
the clouds should be gone through slowly even with MATS on and a fast M5

totally inertial movement would be more realistic. no speed limit, only accelerations limits. to brake soft use the front trusters, to brake hard reverse the ship and activate boosters.

ok I stop here, return to game.


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PostPosted: Mon, 17. Apr 06, 14:38    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

alollini wrote:
I agree with almost all of the above.
Interface must be always on while loading sector.

Not possible. The game is loading during this time. The game does not start until everything is there. It just wont be practical.

alollini wrote:

make the game multitask please, use windows windows for cameras for example.

Are you suggesting seeing X3s cameras while you are in windows. That would be cool but again, X3 only is active when the game is there. If you switch to windows the game will pause.

alollini wrote:

port game to macosX

I dont know if that is up to Egosoft. I think there are special publishers who try this. X2 did go to linix but it took a while.

alollini wrote:

in FRENCH no way to see how much cargo space is free - or used

A known bug in several languages.

alollini wrote:

gravidar is not very helpful was better in x2

I agree. You cant see the player ship as a point of reference. I dont think there are Z axis lines either to show how far "Up" a ship is.
add ability to rotate the sector map with mouse

alollini wrote:

your menus are well designed for touchscreen, but i do not have one ...

A touch screen would be nice as a second monitor. I dont think their visuals are very good though. Perhaps the option to move all menus and interfaces onto a second monitor would be a good idea although in pracrice you will need the HUD where it is.
Touch screens mimic mice. The cursor is moved to where you press. I think the support is there but no one has reported using it yet.

alollini wrote:

add mobile mining

All ready in the game. Commands and equiptment.

alollini wrote:

make space continuous, fly possible from a sector to another without gates, but exermely long.

It would take several centurys to get anywhere else realy even in a moded Pegasus. The galaxy map is a map of the gates, they are physicaly all over the place. Possibly on the other sides of galaxys to each other. Plus, the computers can not handle all that co-ordinate data.

alollini wrote:

why not being able to create a new sector by buying gates...

Gate building is not very well known science for any of the races.

alollini wrote:

opaque gaz sectors are too opage, clouds are too small
and move too fast, space is more transparent than that.
the clouds should be gone through slowly even with MATS on and a fast M5

I dont like the nebulas in X3 either. Some sectors are too clear when they should be quite full of nebulas (fade in effects look odd). The size of them though, the whole sector, is fine.

alollini wrote:

totally inertial movement would be more realistic. no speed limit, only accelerations limits. to brake soft use the front trusters, to brake hard reverse the ship and activate boosters.

X3 added more realistic physics but I dont think it will get any more realistic. Yes this is a space simulation game but it is not supposed to be realistic as in REAL. This is a good as it gets and I love it.

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ncc386



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PostPosted: Mon, 17. Apr 06, 22:06    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Yay, Apricotslice! Go, fruit, go! Good post! (original post)


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PostPosted: Mon, 17. Apr 06, 22:53    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Xenon_Slayer wrote:

I dont like the nebulas in X3 either. Some sectors are too clear when they should be quite full of nebulas (fade in effects look odd). The size of them though, the whole sector, is fine.


Although it definitely makes no sense that you can see the background stars and the system's planet through the nebula, but you CAN'T see an asteroid 10km away! Freespace 2 nebulae worked much better in this regard--when you were in the middle of one you couldn't see anything but nebula whatever direction you looked.

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PostPosted: Mon, 17. Apr 06, 23:05    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

I remember asking for fs2 nebulas once in devnet i think. Shame abotu x3 nebula filled sectors like "the hole and i think the wall" "green ones". As they almost did a great job. Tho if u stop still and move left and right alot u can get very space sick hehe, i did. All them bits of floating nebula when turning goes zoomed in and out it really is disorienting.

Perhaps a mod or script can make the nebula's thicker and possibly block out stars and planets?

--

About the mouse lag. Not as bad i think or im getting used to it a bit i dunno. But i do know another problem or same but looking at it differently. Mouse speed when in menu mouse mode or mouse flying mode as in move mouse about when flying and ship doesn't move. I always had in windows and in games mouse sensativity up to make mouse faster as i hate it slow from top left to bottom right corner as in the time it takes to get from a -b. Is there absolutly any way to make it faster as its very annoying. If there is no way to increase sensativity movement of mouse i do hope that egosoft would be kind enough as to perhaps add in startup options a mouse sensativity slider than decrease/increase speed of mouse movement ingame.

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PostPosted: Tue, 18. Apr 06, 02:21    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Skeeter wrote:
Is there absolutly any way to make it faster as its very annoying. If there is no way to increase sensativity movement of mouse i do hope that egosoft would be kind enough as to perhaps add in startup options a mouse sensativity slider than decrease/increase speed of mouse movement ingame.


Have you changed the windows settings to maximum ?


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PostPosted: Tue, 18. Apr 06, 03:37    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Hmm was just half way in controlpanel/mouse/3rd tab. Unusual... Ill try x3 tomorrow as my eyes are knackard now as its half 2 am. lol

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PostPosted: Tue, 18. Apr 06, 14:37    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Sorry if these have already been posted.

1) Caiman bridge offset is about 10m above the ship so if you go into a docked caiman the viewpoint is in the docking clamp!

2) Can we have 2 sector range values per station, so there is a buying range distance value and a selling range value. I may only want my station to forage for resources locally, but want my selling ship to travel wherever necessary to offload the goods (especially high value items).

3) Some eq docks, docking clamps are doubled up (ie 5 pairs of 2), if 2 large ships are attached to adjoining clamps then you are guranteed a ship being destroyed if in sector when undocking.

4) On the property list, can we see the qty in stock values for all products manufactured on a complex (option to swich off)

5) When docked at a player owned station can we have an owned ships menu item along side the landed ships icon.

6) Some kind of auto scrolling on the universe map related to where the mouse is (i.e. like on most RTS games)

7) Property list needs a bit of a shake up, i think there should be instant "show only" options e.g. show all TLs, All non producing fabs, all ships under attack etc.

eight!!!) New command for Jump drive for owned ships - "Jump to my sector". Also if i have got another sector on the sector map open, then i would like a shortcut to "Jump to this sector"

EDIT: Re the post below, CBJ, Sorry bout that, i saw the OP and there was a list of issues many of which appeared to be wishes. I didnt read the bit that said the thread was moved from another forum so, err sorry. Please keep the thread open Smile



Last edited by apogee on Tue, 18. Apr 06, 15:55; edited 1 time in total
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CBJ
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PostPosted: Tue, 18. Apr 06, 14:43    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Just to remind people that this is the Tech Support forum, not a place for requesting new features or changes to functionality. There is an ideas forum in DevNet (with strict posting rules) for the latter, and if this continues to be just a general suggestion list then it will be locked or moved to the main forum.

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PostPosted: Tue, 18. Apr 06, 15:10    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

CBJ, personally I think its 6 of one, half dozen of the other which area its located in.

But while its in tech support as esd thought it should be,

I think the answer is to split off anything you consider belongs somewhere else. There are plenty of threads that are about requesting new features, so move the offending posts to one of them.

The only post that is important, is the OP.

I'd hate to see the thread locked because people are misunderstanding what its here for.

And its here purely to update the OP list with the current bugs or major issues in the game that we feel Egosoft needs to address to make the game stable and playable.

As you said, its NOT about what we want to see changed.

apogee : Points 1 and 3 added to the list.


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PostPosted: Wed, 19. Apr 06, 07:53    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

The content of this thread has simply made me realize that I need to go back and play GTA San Andreas again, replay Oblivion, and then come back and see if X3 is anywhere near playable yet.

Apricot Slice: I loved everthing you pointed out at the start of this thread, I am in 100% agreement. I consider them bugs too. One man's "developer decision" is this mans' "bug" called by a sugared name.

Armeggedon: I can't say what I want to say; it's not worth the forum ban it would earn. Just let me suggest you should expect a lot more from products you pay good money for. If X3 were a car or a blender you would have petitioned for a recall by now.

So Egosoft, what was the point of adding the Tractor Beam again? I see that two trading docks 'trade' them, but I've never seen one, or a fab that makes them. And I have looked in all the places the forum and guides and guru's tell me to. I guess I am going to have to violate my standards and mod the game to get one. The phrases that enter my mind are "false advertising" and "empty promises". How much programming time did the Egosoft staff spend on something that can't actually be found in the game? If I were the developer manager , I would be looking for heads to chop off.

I bill my real life clients between $150 and $260 USD per hour for my time(Field Service Engineer, San Jose, CA). For the time I've spent looking for the bloody non-existent tractor beam Egosoft owes me at least $1000. Where can I send the bill?

Egosoft, I would like to suggest a new company motto for ya'all:

"Egosoft: Making the games that make you want to play other games more!"

I'll be back to complain (or praise, but I wouldn't bet on it) after I check out patch version 1.5. September maybe?

And please ya'all; don't complain about my complaining; I am not complaining, I am DARING the devs to prove all us complainers wrong once and for all. DOUBLE DARE!!!

If my critique seems inflamatory or non-constructive, please just consider me disadvantaged and tainted from a childhood in Australia, where words like 'daft' and 'horrid' are considered polite conversation when their use is truly warranted and earned. With this in mind, you should admire and compliment me for my restraint in this post.

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PostPosted: Wed, 19. Apr 06, 12:20    Post subject: Re: Current Bugs and Issues List Reply with quote Print

Here's a quick review of the points raised. "Bug" lists like this are all very well, but mixing up opinions with actual bug reports it makes it much less likely to be read, and much more difficult for testers to pick out things that might actually need looking into.

The most important difference to note is between a game not working as it was intended to work, and not working as you would like it to work or think it should work. The former is a bug and belongs here, the latter is a matter of opinion and, no matter how strongly you hold that opinion, belongs in the general forum (for discussion) or the DevNet ideas forum (for the developers to read, see the note at the end of this post).

1, 2, 2A, 19, 20, 21, 25. These are a lot harder to fix than you seem to think. If avoidance is extended to such a large distance then in busy sectors ships will be pretty much unable to find any route. There is no such thing as an "asteroid plane" for ships to turn out of. All that having been said, there is of course, always scope for improvement in this area.

3, 4, 5. Yes, the first is impossible and I've seen no confirmation from testers of this happening. Ships that are destroyed with no reason given are presumably the ones docked at stations destroyed by the GOD engine.

6, 7. I've seen several reports but no confirmation from testers.

8, 24, 33, 35, 36. Model issues. I believe most or all of these have been reported.

9, 11, 12, 13, 23, 28, 29, 36. These may be bugs, but testers would have to confirm.

10, 15. Not a bug, a feature request.

14. Not a bug. The lasertower fires on the assumption that it is going to hit its target, not miss and hit whatever is behind. If it didn't work like this then you could simply sit between it and the station and be immune from attack.

16. Not a bug, a design decision. Sorry, but just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it a bug.

17. Not necessarily a bug. Who said Tractor Beams were supposed to be easy to find? As long as they don't go completely missing (which has I believe happened to a few people) then this is fine.

18. Not a bug, and not even a practical suggestion. Mutliple capital ships cannot emerge from a gate simultaneously due to space. Tactics simply have to take this into account.

22. Not a bug. Xenon ships are AI entities so they don't have pilots. Kha'ak presumably don't wear space-suits and therefore explode when they eject (or something).

26, 27. Intelligence of upgrade software is always going to have limitations. If it were perfect then there would be little point in playing the game as you could just leave the AI to get on with it!

30. Not a bug. There has to be a balance between turning red too soon and leaving it too long and being unrealistically forgiving. The game has no way of knowing whether your friendly fire is intentional or not, and the current balance is as good as it is likely to get.

31. More of a quirk than a bug. You can remove the homebase by getting into the ship. You could always explain this with some in-game fiction, such as clearing homebase settings requiring manual override with biometric control to prevent pirates from taking over unmanned ships.

32. OOS combat has to draw a fine line between accurate simulation and performance. Balancing so that the outcome is the same as in-sector for every case without grinding the universe to a halt is nigh-on impossible. As with many areas, there is always scope for improvement, but don't expect miracles.

34. Confirmed bug, but very difficult to reproduce and therefore very difficult to fix.

All of your "issues" are all actually feature requests, and as such belong in the DevNet ideas forums (with the usual caveat of making sure you follow the strict posting rules carefully).

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PostPosted: Wed, 19. Apr 06, 13:32    Post subject: Re: Current Bugs and Issues List Reply with quote Print

CBJ wrote:
Here's a quick review of the points raised. "Bug" lists like this are all very well, but mixing up opinions with actual bug reports it makes it much less likely to be read, and much more difficult for testers to pick out things that might actually need looking into.


Thankyou very much for your response.

One of the problems with making such a list is that without some sort of feedback, its often impossible to know what is a genuine bug, what is an actual game decision and what is a bug that was decided to be kept.

We now at last have some feedback to help with this. Thankyou.

Quote:
The most important difference to note is between a game not working as it was intended to work, and not working as you would like it to work or think it should work. The former is a bug and belongs here, the latter is a matter of opinion and, no matter how strongly you hold that opinion, belongs in the general forum (for discussion) or the DevNet ideas forum (for the developers to read, see the note at the end of this post).


We, the players, would like to think that Egosoft does pay some attention to what we consider are bugs, even if they do not. While a game decision may have been made with the best intensions, sometime the implementation doesnt work in a way that the player likes, or plain doesnt work very well at all. It happens. We accept that. But we would alos like to think that Egosoft will see our considering such things a bug to be a reason for a rethink.

Quote:
1, 2, 2A, 19, 20, 21, 25. These are a lot harder to fix than you seem to think.


Worked perfectly in X2 1.4.

And the issues may be complex, but the basic problems are incredably obvious. Making a 90 degree turn at full speed far too close to a roid, without checking that the turn direction is clear, is very obviously in need of work. Ships making 180 degree turns at full speed and then turning back again without a proper course correction first, is also obvious. Not to mention the fact that the auto-pilot ignores the actual speed and rudder of the ship and uses hardcoded values based on its original specs, which I suspect is its sale spec, not its fully upgraded spec.

As an Ex-Systems Analyst, how hard it is to fix isnt an issue for me. There are some things in any project that either MUST be fixed, or redesigned so the problem doesnt occur. The auto-pilot is something that must be fixed.

Besides, any programmer worth his salt would be ashamed to say "I designed the auto-pilot in X3". I sure as he.l would have, and I'd be busting a gut to solve it, just for my own piece of mind. How hard the problem is, is not the issue.

Quote:
There is no such thing as an "asteroid plane" for ships to turn out of.


Of course there is. Almost every asteroid field in the game extends along a loose and not all that thick, plain. When you get far enough away, its very obvious. Take Ore Belt for example. Its an XZ plain (basically) with a Y area of a few kms above and below the 0 point. Pull a roid below or above the plain, and you can safely pull it right accross the middle of the sector without hitting anything.

Quote:
3, 4, 5. Yes, the first is impossible and I've seen no confirmation from testers of this happening. Ships that are destroyed with no reason given are presumably the ones docked at stations destroyed by the GOD engine.


In the case of 4, this is DEFINITELY NOT the case. Nanook can provide a tester with save games, as can a lot of others. Theres a whole thread on this alone.

Quote:
26, 27. Intelligence of upgrade software is always going to have limitations. If it were perfect then there would be little point in playing the game as you could just leave the AI to get on with it!


But thats the whole point. Many people WANT to leave the traders to get on with it in background without micro-managing all the time, so they can get on with other more interesting persutes such as combat and still have money coming in.

In my case, I frequently wish to leave the game running so I can just watch my strategic plans run without a hitch. Nothing untoward happening is actually how I measure success in the game !

Quote:
All of your "issues" are all actually feature requests, and as such belong in the DevNet ideas forums (with the usual caveat of making sure you follow the strict posting rules carefully).


I was afraid that would be the official line. Thankyou for confirming it though.

Having been deemed "unhelpful" in devnet, others will need to make the requests, as the frustration level if I participated would merely tax the moderators to the point where everyone was unhappy. Frankly, the rules there demonstrate so well why many of the things added to the game are only ever half thought out. But that is just my personal opinion, and my personal decision to avoid devnet. Everyone is at liberty to disagree with me.

If you would like to split this thread into genuine bugs which stays here for attention, and developmental issues for devnet, with anything left being put back into Xuniverse where it came from locked, I am very happy for you to do so. If you leave it intact here, I am happy too. Whatever, I'm happy.

But for me, the auto-pilot issues are a game killer, and the only area of the game not affected, ie combat, is affected now by the 1.4 disappearing ships bugs. The end result, is a game that really doesnt play without far too much frustration. Fortunately, for the time being, I am far to busy with documentation and modding issues to have the time to play, so I just live in hope that the devs may actually solve those game-killers by the time I get the time to actually play again.

And that was my aim in starting this thread. Just to ensure that the problems people are making endless threads about were assembled into a single list that the devs could use as a pulse of the players, if they wished to test it.


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CBJ
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PostPosted: Wed, 19. Apr 06, 14:29    Post subject: Re: Current Bugs and Issues List Reply with quote Print

apricotslice wrote:
One of the problems with making such a list is that without some sort of feedback, its often impossible to know what is a genuine bug, what is an actual game decision and what is a bug that was decided to be kept.

Accepted, which is why I thought it was time to respond.

apricotslice wrote:
Worked perfectly in X2 1.4.

I beg to differ. Wink

apricotslice wrote:
Of course there is. Almost every asteroid field in the game extends along a loose and not all that thick, plain.

That is something that you, as a human, are seeing from the "outside". The AI cannot see that and has to deal with obstacles as individual objects.

apricotslice wrote:
Having been deemed "unhelpful" in devnet, others will need to make the requests, as the frustration level if I participated would merely tax the moderators to the point where everyone was unhappy. Frankly, the rules there demonstrate so well why many of the things added to the game are only ever half thought out. But that is just my personal opinion, and my personal decision to avoid devnet. Everyone is at liberty to disagree with me.

Please re-read the explanation of why the rules in DevNet are as they are. There are thousands of people with ideas and only a very few developers to read them, and it would be quite simply impossible for those developers to do so if people just posted like they do on the standard forums.

All the rules are there to make that possible, not just to annoy people who post, and the moderators are asked to enforce these rules strictly so that the place doesn't get in a mess. Once it gets in a mess it is very difficult to get it back under control, and the result is that developers are unable to use it rendering the whole thing pointless.

By all means discuss ideas to thrash them out, but not in there. Think about it. The developers couldn't possibly read through hundreds of 20 page threads full of people discussing which bits of an idea would and wouldn't work. The solution is to do the thinking and discussing elsewhere, and post the finished idea in there.

Remember also that ideas posted in DevNet are ideas, not a to-do list for the developers. Some ideas are contradictory, some do not fit with the game concept, some are not practical (whatever the person posting the idea may think), and others are great ideas but there simply isn't time to do everything.

Active and creative users are always welcome in DevNet, and I would urge you to consider the reasons for DevNet being managed the way it is and reconsider your decision not to participate.

apricotslice wrote:
If you would like to split this thread into genuine bugs which stays here for attention, and developmental issues for devnet, with anything left being put back into Xuniverse where it came from locked, I am very happy for you to do so. If you leave it intact here, I am happy too. Whatever, I'm happy.

Life's too short. The thread will stay as it is and where it is, but if people insist on using it as a place to post ideas then there is a good chance that it will get locked.

apricotslice wrote:
And that was my aim in starting this thread. Just to ensure that the problems people are making endless threads about were assembled into a single list that the devs could use as a pulse of the players, if they wished to test it.

Useful, but it would be more useful if it were just bug reports, then it might actually be used as described.

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