Boosting at gates, why?

[RubyRezal]

Whether in system or out of system, I've noticed many of my captains will boost away from exiting jump gates until their shields are depleted.

Why do they do this? Why can't this behavior be disabled? This seems strategically unsound, especially when entering hostile or dangerous sectors.

[LordBaal]

I think you may need a whole new mod to disable this shit

[vvvvvvvv]

Whether in system or out of system, I've noticed many of my captains will boost away from exiting jump gates until their shields are depleted.

Why do they do this? Why can't this behavior be disabled? This seems strategically unsound, especially when entering hostile or dangerous sectors.

Probably to avoid collisions.

i'm not sure if you remember x3. But in x3 if you personally drove a boron TL (station carrier. A ship that delivers station to destination) through a gate, there was a good chance that on other side you'd be greeted with dozens of dying screams and angry police. Because the ship would plow through all the small ships there and they'd die on impact.

[Falcrack]

I really wish devs wpuld address this. It doesn't always happen, but when it does, it is really annoying to see my destroyers boost away half their shield or more for negligible gains in speed to try to clear a gate.

[Ragnos28]

My Raptor and Shark captains do love to burn their shields when they "jump" to another sector. And they do not stop when the shield is depleted, they recover some shield, burn it, and so on, very annoying.
By the time they stop doing that, they are in the middle of the sector. Only way to stop it, is to take the wheel, and resume orders.

[RubyRezal]

Seeing it happen in Sanctuary of Darkness is unnerving. I've watched severall small ships boost into the hazard zones, deplete their shields completely, then die in the storm or just barely make it back to the "safe" area. I try to avoid sending fleets through there.

Watching an Orca try to boost away from a jumpgate is just sad though.

[Submarine]

You ask why and the answer has to be the AI is not asking the right questions to create a measured effect.

If the aim is to get out of the way then the AI should order a boost only long enough to travel a safe distance from the gate to avoid collision with incoming traffic and then stop boosting.

So the AI needs to perform a check on its distance from the gate and it sounds like it is not doing that.

Also the AI needs to check for hazardous reegions and avoid them and it sounds like it is not doing that either.

It is not a very sophisticated or considered AI and previous discussions suggest the same applies to use of boost in combat and evasion.

All of which indicates the flight AI needs a major overhaul.

[mr.WHO]

Another reason to vote to pinned poll at the top of this forum - vote for new booster logic:

viewtopic.php?t=467680

[RubyRezal]

Another reason to vote to pinned poll at the top of this forum - vote for new booster logic:

viewtopic.php?t=467680

I wasn't aware, thanks for the link!

[flywlyx]

For some reason, their capital ships have an oversized collision box in the calculations, causing ships to keep a distance of about 5–10 km from each other.

[CBJ]

Probably to avoid collisions.

i'm not sure if you remember x3. But in x3 if you personally drove a boron TL (station carrier. A ship that delivers station to destination) through a gate, there was a good chance that on other side you'd be greeted with dozens of dying screams and angry police. Because the ship would plow through all the small ships there and they'd die on impact.

Yes, this is exactly the reason. It has nothing to do with distances or hitboxes on the gate exit side, or other ships approaching the gate from that side. It's to do with clearing the gate exit area so that other ships coming through the gate from the other side don't land on top of the first ship and have exit routes of their own to get out of the way of further ships. This can obviously happen with any ship that comes through, but it's particularly noticeable with ships travelling in a fleet. With unknown numbers and sizes of ships that could come through the gate, the clearance distance has to be fairly generous.

[flywlyx]

It has nothing to do with distances or hitboxes on the gate exit side, or other ships approaching the gate from that side.

With unknown numbers and sizes of ships that could come through the gate, the clearance distance has to be fairly generous.

So, is it about the distance or not?

[vvvvvvvv]

Probably to avoid collisions.

i'm not sure if you remember x3. But in x3 if you personally drove a boron TL (station carrier. A ship that delivers station to destination) through a gate, there was a good chance that on other side you'd be greeted with dozens of dying screams and angry police. Because the ship would plow through all the small ships there and they'd die on impact.

Yes, this is exactly the reason. It has nothing to do with distances or hitboxes on the gate exit side, or other ships approaching the gate from that side. It's to do with clearing the gate exit area so that other ships coming through the gate from the other side don't land on top of the first ship and have exit routes of their own to get out of the way of further ships. This can obviously happen with any ship that comes through, but it's particularly noticeable with ships travelling in a fleet. With unknown numbers and sizes of ships that could come through the gate, the clearance distance has to be fairly generous.

I wonder if you guys ever considered bigger "directional" gates. Like where ships enter from one side and exit from another. Or separate "lanes" for gates i.e. ships enter on upper half, and exit on lower. Like it was done with highway accelerators. Won't eliminate problem of collisions fully, but would reduce it. The gates as they're now are quite small, and capitals do not really fit through them. That's why they don't even jump through the gate anymore - just teleport from vicinity of the gate into vicinity of the gate.

[Scoob]

There seems to be a combination of issues at play, the boosting behaviour just being one of them. A ship boosting to move away from a gate, while it makes a degree of sense, if often a MISTAKE when it come to that ship surviving. Many a time a ship has boosted from a gate when there are hostiles around and the resultant shield loss has proven the difference between survive and die. Applies to all size-classes of ships, Fighter-wing subordinates are a nightmare for this. They arrive, then totally drain their shields to try to form up with their leader. Hatikvah's Choice I is a fun system, heavy civilian traffic, with close proximity to a Xenon gate. Also, sometimes the vector they choose to boost away at is a little suspect. I.e. they're not boosting away from the gate, but at an angle perhaps perpendicular to the gate, towards danger. This often happens - regularly if a formation of multiple Large ships - as ships emerge from the Gate (aka, teleport in its vicinity) facing the WRONG way. I.e. the lead ship might be facing away from the gate, but subordinates will teleport in facing towards the gate. This of course causes even more problems as the ships try to turn around - WHY do ships under AI control turn so very slowly vs. what they're actually capable of? I 15 second turn time (large ships of course) if flown by the player might take a full minute under AI control. I've never quite understood that.

The next issue we have is when a ship teleports in dozens on KM from the gate due to some obstruction. No boosting needed, no further obstruction created of course. I get the game is trying to avoid collisions, but having invading ships (Xenon in my case) able to teleport PAST the Defence Platform (20km from the gate at least) and ships I have in a tight "Protection Position" placement seems a little silly. While rarer now, despite all this, if you have a line of Large Freighters (for example) going through a gate in-turn, it can still lead to the comical rapid spinning of each vessel as it arrives and clips the one before it. No chance of leaving the area promptly one it starts spinning.

My hope with the addition of Jolt Physics would be to see smaller ships simply pushed out of the way. This seemed to be the case for early implementations, but there was a lot of clipping / spinning going on too. As, at worst, shield damage is the only penalty for being bumped, it's not like those X3 days. Perhaps implementing some sort of "soft push" when larger ships emerge from gates would be viable? I.e. ships get gently pushed out of the way by the "bow wave" of the emerging larger vessel? I mean, quite literally, project a "force wave" (possible with Jolt, right?) when a larger vessel emerges, quickly, but gently, displacing smaller craft as the waves passes through them, and giving larger vessel a little nudge too. Hopefully this would physically clear the area. Bit of a pain for a smaller ship trying to fly into the gate of course However, if they aim for the edges of the gate, and larger ships emerge from the centre...perhaps that'd be enough.

As it stands, the area around Gates can be a bit of a nightmare if the player is close by. We have ships boosting to exit the area losing their shields. Vulnerable to attack. We have ships emerging facing the wrong way (formation subordinates) and being slow to turn to exit the area. Then we have the teleporting ships skipping past potential obstructions - even if just a group of fighters - to arrive much further into the system, bypassing defences. The full OOS and player close experience also alters how things play out of course. However, even OOS, I can clearly see ships emerging 20,30 40km+ from a gate due to obstructions. Obstructions of course that are deliberately there to STOP enemies getting deeper into the system.

I do think the two-way nature of Gates presents its own problems. Superhighways with their separate In/Out lanes do often result in a cleaner transition, but can still suffer from exit clutter of course. They didn't benefit from the Teleport hack, and often they work better as they are. Perhaps AI-controlled gate transit needs to be more disciplined. I.e. the AI always enters a Gate in the top 50% and exits in the lower 50%, make gates a little larger to facilitate this. We've had work-arounds applied, teleporting near a gate being the most recent one, which can work quite well. However, sometimes it's jarring how far away ships teleport when entering a gate at times, let alone when exiting a gate if the slightest obstruction is there - player being close of course.

Thoughts: when under AI control - aka NOT flown by the player - should Gates have the ability to hold back (buffer if you will) ships in transition while the gate area clears? Superhighways do this to a degree, as there's a transition time of course, and I think it helps. I've noticed how Superhighway transitions can give a speed boost on exit, which seems a good way to ensure the exit area is cleared without the need for boosting. However, if often gets things a little wrong. I've exited Superhighways in large, slow ships doing insane speeds. So, the boost caused the problem in those situations. But that's just one ship, flown by me, AI ships have a bit more control is seems. So, boosting out of a Superhighway if the exit area is clear keeps it clear, if there's already a ship there that's not cleared the area yet, hilarity can ensue.

I don't know how others play, but I'm often blockading gates with Ships and Stations. Key gates leading to Xenon space - or another Faction if you've made an enemy of them - are core tactical locations. However, when ships just teleport past, bypassing extensive defences, it's a little irksome.

Boosting away from a Gate is the more obvious side effect of trying to keep the area clear to avoid potentially comical ship collisions, but there's more to it.

Gates are an X Game staple. Perhaps the AI needs to know how to queue to use them better? Regardless, incoming / outgoing traffic needs more separation, and arrivals need to not bunch up so much. I think a combination of extra arrival "momentum" to avoid the need to deplete shields with boost, and the "bow wave" physical push effect might help.

I know I've waffled on about this, but boosting is just one band-aid applied to the Gate clutter issue that isn't always ideal. I LIKE camping out at gates, sat in an Observation Module on one of my faction's Defence Platforms, watching the action.

[RainerPrem]

Thoughts: when under AI control - aka NOT flown by the player - should Gates have the ability to hold back (buffer if you will) ships in transition while the gate area clears?

So a single ship can effectively block a gate?

Maybe the devs should take a look at David Weber's Honor Harrington series. ("At Basilisk Station" is free on Amazon and Baen). These books contain detailed descriptions how to organize travel through wormholes, even one with six different routes.

[Scoob]

So a single ship can effectively block a gate?

Maybe the devs should take a look at David Weber's Honor Harrington series. ("At Basilisk Station" is free on Amazon and Baen). These books contain detailed descriptions how to organize travel through wormholes, even one with six different routes.

No, so a single ship doesn't block a gate / cause collisions / teleportation issues or boost away its shields. It's just held in-transit a little longer to allow for a less troublesome exit. A buffer if you will. Far from ideal, but as it's basically what Superhighways do due to transit time, it might help.

Boosting is an attempt to clear the gate area, but it causes issues. Teleportation is a way to clear the gate area, but it causes issues. Extra speed on exiting a gate is a way to clear the gate area, but it can back-fire causing collisions. The issues can be seen around any busy Gate exit - the Gate between Hatikvah's Choice I and Silent Witness I being a good example. Especially if the player has Defence Platform and Fleet guarding the exit to the gate from Tharka's Cascade XV as I do. All the listed issues can clearly be seen.

The nature of gates is the fundamental issue, some sort of Queue system would be a logical solution, with a gate "buffering" ships until the exit is clear. It's not elegant though. I'd still suggest larger gates, with clear exit/entrance "zones" such as left/right or upper lower halves when used by the AI. With ships retaining any speed and momentum to reduce the chances of snags. The player can barge their way through regardless of course, their call.

[flywlyx]

No, so a single ship doesn't block a gate / cause collisions / teleportation issues or boost away its shields. It's just held in-transit a little longer to allow for a less troublesome exit. A buffer if you will. Far from ideal, but as it's basically what Superhighways do due to transit time, it might help.

Boosting is an attempt to clear the gate area, but it causes issues. Teleportation is a way to clear the gate area, but it causes issues. Extra speed on exiting a gate is a way to clear the gate area, but it can back-fire causing collisions. The issues can be seen around any busy Gate exit - the Gate between Hatikvah's Choice I and Silent Witness I being a good example. Especially if the player has Defence Platform and Fleet guarding the exit to the gate from Tharka's Cascade XV as I do. All the listed issues can clearly be seen.

The nature of gates is the fundamental issue, some sort of Queue system would be a logical solution, with a gate "buffering" ships until the exit is clear. It's not elegant though. I'd still suggest larger gates, with clear exit/entrance "zones" such as left/right or upper lower halves when used by the AI. With ships retaining any speed and momentum to reduce the chances of snags. The player can barge their way through regardless of course, their call.

The core issue is that AI ships stop and wait in front of the gate, and the safe distance requirements between ships limit how many can gather near it. Even though X4 doesn’t have that many capital ships traveling at once, these restrictions clog gate traffic, especially when a large fleet needs to pass through.

The ideal scenario would be if ships didn’t slow down at all—teleporting through the gate and exiting at travel speed. The next best option would be for ships to slow down briefly for teleportation, then resume travel drive as soon as possible after.

Currently, though, ships check for a "safe" spot to land near the gate before teleporting. After teleporting, they find another "safe" location, boost there, and only then start moving again. In transit, they have to stop at least twice, which prevents any kind of smooth flow through the gate.

[RubyRezal]

I understand the need for them to move away from gates and that would be reasonable, except that they appear to get stuck in "boost away from the gate" mode for way longer than necessary. For example, I've watched a Yasur boost practically half way across a system to get away from a gate.
I sat on a Phoenix E that was the target of a boarding mission to watch for a good ambush opportunity. It tended bost away from jumpgates continuously until I teleported OOS. At which point it finally stopped boosting and engaged travel drive.

The core issue isn't that they need to boost away from the gate, the core issue is they frequently do not stop boosting once they've traveled a reasonable distance away from the gate to make room for practically any other ship in the game.

Of note, if I comm my ships when I think they've gone far enough they will cancel boosting. I've started hailing all my fleet members to get them to stop boosting, but this is tedious and not an ideal solution.

This also happens in combat and i've started using the comm when I see a ship way out of position.