The winners were the loosers XD!!

dfm5000 · Post by **dfm5000** » Tue, 27. Sep 16, 09:37

http://roguey.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?id=307&p=2

If those people could go into the future, and see what the see and know what they know now.

Would they have changed their vote to M7!!

ADMNtek · Post by **ADMNtek** » Tue, 27. Sep 16, 13:54

first wrong section this shout go into the general discussion.
second why would they?

Ezarkal · Post by **Ezarkal** » Tue, 27. Sep 16, 14:19

Nah.
Frigates are good for many things, but too slow for exploration. M6 is the best average of everything.
Plus, fights in frigates would quickly become boring, as compared to dogfighting.

I know many people disagree for many reasons, but I like the skunk.

ajax34i · Post by **ajax34i** » Tue, 27. Sep 16, 14:44

In my opinion, you're correct about M6'es being the best average of everything.

But, given the current engine's focus on drones AND limitation that you can't pilot your ship while flying drones, I feel that M7 should be the smallest platform to offer drone control capabilities. An M7 has enough defenses to survive an extended combat session where the player is busy controlling drones and the ship is piloted by dumb AI. I feel that, to achieve the same thing with Yisha as a pilot and the Skunk (M6), the pathing and combat AI's would have to achieve excellent dogfighting, which would be hard.

So, it depends on what direction Egosoft wishes to take:

- for a game that involves dogfighting small ships and missiles to take out bigger ships, and no remote controlling of drones, an M6 is excellent.

- for a game that focuses on controlling a variety of drones to achieve your goals (whether dogfighting other small ships or attacking bigger ships with torpedoes or whatever), I would rather be based in an M7 or bigger.

Ultimately, by the time Egosoft releases X6 or X7, I think the game will be completely open to either possibility, allowing the player avatar to sit in the small / medium ship of choice, or sit in the drone control chair of any capital ship or station.

Ezarkal · Post by **Ezarkal** » Tue, 27. Sep 16, 15:55

I agree with you.

On the other hand, I don't think the current ROV in XR were ever intended to be used in combat. Think about it: There's of course the obvious reason that you're a sitting duck while you're controlling one. And on the other hand, every drone is fit for a single purpose or mission.

Assault ROV are pretty nice when you have those "clear the minefield" mission or other missions where you don't want to risk the skunk. But they litteraly suck when it comes to actual combat.
Hacker/Beholder/Traitor ROV have their own specific uses to accomplish a mission or prepare a battle, but are useless once the guns start blazing..

So yeah, if ES ever wants to make drones (or other small ships) as specific combat ROV, they should definitively go with a M7 type (or bigger) carrier. If drones are only to be a mean to extend your array of functionnalities, then I think the current system isn't so bad. I'd say the biggest problem right now is when Yisha decides it's a good idea to use your hacker drone while bording a ship (thus putting yourself at risk of being shot down by possible reinforcements).

But they should make the URV's sturdier. They are frigging expensive for something so damn fragile.

ajax34i · Post by **ajax34i** » Tue, 27. Sep 16, 23:02

As I said in the other thread, I think the lore is moving towards making M3's, M4's, M5's as pilotless drone ships, rather than making drones stronger. Or, actually, it's the same thing. See what PMC does during the plot.

So, I'm guessing here, we could get to "pilot" the "more than 3 ships" via the drone interface from the bridge of some capital ship, and the "ships" are actually fighter-sized drones.

Possibly, they change the acronym for URV's to mean "utility remote-controlled vehicles" and restrict the xs drones to what works: shield defense, cargo, mining, scanning, hacking, maybe limpets. For actual combat, though, as you said, tiny drones don't work, you need a fighter's armor and shields if you want your weapons platform to survive to get close enough to the enemy to apply its weapons.

Graaf · Post by **Graaf** » Tue, 27. Sep 16, 23:50

I don't think that poll on Roguey's site made any difference in development. It's more a "what class do you hope the Skunk will be" poll.

And imho I think we all lost with Rebirth.

As for the drones as replacement for pilotable ships. They are probably just as boring as the remote controlled warheads in X3. But being a sitting duck during drone flight wasn't what was told to us. Your co-pilot would pilot the Skunk.

kurush · Post by **kurush** » Wed, 28. Sep 16, 02:23

Graaf wrote: As for the drones as replacement for pilotable ships. They are probably just as boring as the remote controlled warheads in X3. But being a sitting duck during drone flight wasn't what was told to us. Your co-pilot would pilot the Skunk.

I haven't noticed much drone activity while playing Rebirth. Sure, you have to use that hacking drone from time to time and at the beginning I used the remotely controlled fighters. But after getting all MK4 upgrades I don't think I need them any more. On Skunk, I hope it ends up in the class called "obsolete"

The model is way too ugly to keep it going.

GCU Grey Area · Post by **GCU Grey Area** » Wed, 28. Sep 16, 12:08

Graaf wrote:As for the drones as replacement for pilotable ships. They are probably just as boring as the remote controlled warheads in X3.

What are you talking about? Flyable drones in XR work, whereas the Remote Guided Warhead in X3 never did. As far as I can recall it was just another unremarkable 100k missile with (despite the description) no capability to be flown by the player.

As for how boring XR drones are, that's subjective. However I like them, particularly Novadrone (XR's version of the RGW) & Beholders (illegal station scanning drones) - have had a lot of fun dodging around police ships while gathering info on manufacturing processes inside shielded stations.

ajax34i · Post by **ajax34i** » Wed, 28. Sep 16, 13:36

I'm fixated on drones because they seemed to be a big item / feature when Egosoft was releasing preview videos of X-Rebirth. Their implementation wasn't fully fleshed out, but that's the case with most things in the game, so my impression was that drone gameplay is something that Egosoft really wants to implement.

I could be wrong, of course, they could be just interested in keeping the combat part of the game at just the "guns and missiles" stage.

Nikola515 · Post by **Nikola515** » Wed, 28. Sep 16, 16:04

Actually people expected real M6 and not overpowered M3....

According to wiki:

M6 ships are corvettes frequently found leading fighter patrols or escorting capital ships. They are too big to be considered to be fighters, but too small to be considered true capital ships.

More boat than ship, corvettes are manned by a small crew, and they can carry quite powerful weapons. They are several times the size of a M3 ship (typically 120-280m long) and most have a lot more shields. They are not as maneuverable as fighters and therefore need to use their power and shielding to take down enemy fighters, as their speed and turning is usually not adequate to dogfight.

Most M6 class ships have both main guns and a few turrets. Some of the M6+ ships, recognisable from their regular counterparts by the moniker 'Heavy' in their name, can mount the most powerful corvette weapons in all turrets but they are generally slower then the normal M6s.

The M6s are the class right in the middle of the ship scale, and are generally regarded to be capable of taking on anything with suitable pilot skill, from M5 swatting to M2 strafing. As such, they are commonly used as player ships.

Regular M6s listed below tend to be better suited to taking on small, maneuverable fighters, whilst their M6+ cousins tend to mount heavier weapons to deal with bigger ships.

M6+ ships are not listed here but will appear in the in-game encyclopedia as 'M6'; these can be found in the M6+ section.

XR took all M6 and made them fighters in XR and that can be seen Katana missing weapons, shields and turrets. Even Skunk is missing some of its turrets was well. So I would say that ego didn't use M6 but actually M3 and call them M6.

ajax34i · Post by **ajax34i** » Wed, 28. Sep 16, 16:26

I agree, but Egosoft can use the defense that designations such as "M3" and "M6" no longer pertain to X-Rebirth, and the fact that we use them doesn't mean that the developers have to make ships that fit these designations.

Basically they can completely remove the M6 class of ships from the game; fighters can tend to get smaller and more agile (while still having tough shields and powerful weapons), and capitals can get bigger and bigger, to the point where an M6 ship doesn't function anymore, as it's not agile enough to dogfight, and not heavy enough to damage 2-5km capital ships.

A "true" M6 only makes a nice player ships if it performs better-than-average in the "fighter" category and the "cap. ship" category. So, I mean, they could re-introduce a Hyperion or super-agile Centaur or Springblossom; these would be ships that can either dogfight or can be modded to turn fast enough to dogfight. And also they have the missile compatibility to mount the heavy torpedoes and take out capital ships.

Or they could introduce a mini-M7, where the ship is smaller but can still mount the weaponry to take out capital ships, and can also achieve the dogfight scenario by launching fighters (remote controlled or not). Imagine the Hyperion on auto-follow, providing fire support with its turrets, while you undock your M3 Nova Vanguard from its side bay and proceed to dogfight in it.

EDIT: Anyway, ship designations and the game having a variety of ship classes available isn't an issue; the game can have MANY ships and Egosoft can always patch in more. The only concerns are how many we can directly control, and how the control is (pilot it, vs. remote-control it), and both of these are already achieved from a technical standpoint.

So it's just a design decision, what they want to do for the next game.

I'm ok with either, so I'm just gonna wait and see.

Nikola515 · Post by **Nikola515** » Wed, 28. Sep 16, 16:36

I think M6 would be more than enough for player in XR if they stick to original size and design.... You would pretty much have Mass Effect Normandy with more weapons on it. With their original size 120-280m you could pretty much do anything with them when it comes to weapons installment, hangars, cargo or even use it as boarding vessel....

Post by **UniTrader** » Wed, 28. Sep 16, 17:00

if someone can translate this DE post from lino it should be clear what to expect size-wise

http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php? ... 31#4630931

currently no time to translate mtyself

Rail_Balco · Post by **Rail_Balco** » Wed, 28. Sep 16, 17:27

Goigle translate is my "BFF" when im trying to be friend with german language... Here's just copy/paste from g translate.

The sizes can I tell what, because the asset beep Line is now as very fragile.

Dimensions in meters (width / height / length)
S boat 35/25/35
M Ship 90/90/150
L ship: 600/600/600
XL ship: 2000/2000/2000

These are the maximum dimensions of ships.
A ship may be significantly smaller, but not less than the category below.

Compared to XR have thus become less and coordinated much better in relation to all ships. So we are trying to establish the lack of size feeling again. In XR yes everything seems somehow distorted.

Ih can itself control the lower two sizes categories. There plenty of variation should be present in order to find a ship that like a can.

I want to tell rather less at the time when the numbers are not yet final by far over the number of ships

mr.WHO · Post by **mr.WHO** » Wed, 28. Sep 16, 17:35

Well to be honest you can't scrap M6 class as in X-Rebirth:
- S-Size class contain old M5-M3 fighters with sub-split M5->Raider, M4->Vanguard, M3-Sentinel
- M-size clasification contain old M6 (Katana, Daito, P, Golem)
- L-size is old M7 (Balor, Stormvok, Light Sul, Heavy Sul)
- XL-size old M2 and M1 (Taranis, Arawn)

To me transition from old X3 system to X-Rebirth classification is very logical and consistent (which is not something we see very often in X-Rebirth)

If only M-size ships would retain their turrets then the corvettes would be fine.

Graaf · Post by **Graaf** » Wed, 28. Sep 16, 17:39

GCU Grey Area wrote:
Graaf wrote:As for the drones as replacement for pilotable ships. They are probably just as boring as the remote controlled warheads in X3.
What are you talking about? Flyable drones in XR work, whereas the Remote Guided Warhead in X3 never did. As far as I can recall it was just another unremarkable 100k missile with (despite the description) no capability to be flown by the player.

As for how boring XR drones are, that's subjective. However I like them, particularly Novadrone (XR's version of the RGW) & Beholders (illegal station scanning drones) - have had a lot of fun dodging around police ships while gathering info on manufacturing processes inside shielded stations.

I didn't say they didn't work. Just that I think they are just as boring. Just as being able to only fly one combat-focussed ship is boring.
And I didn't specify a particular missile.

Nikola515 · Post by **Nikola515** » Wed, 28. Sep 16, 17:46

it is only classified as M6 by name but that is about it..... They have been nerfed and they don't have anything besides looks (katana). They don't have nothing in common form X3 M6. For example Katana had more shields,weapons or turrets than skunk but now they are joke. In X3 it was powerful anti M7 ship. It still have M6 size but with shields and firepower of fighter (compared to X3).

Edit: And when people voted there they wore probably thinking of X3 M6 and not XR M6.

spankahontis · Post by **spankahontis** » Wed, 28. Sep 16, 22:39

Graaf wrote: I didn't say they didn't work. Just that I think they are just as boring. Just as being able to only fly one combat-focussed ship is boring.
And I didn't specify a particular missile.

Spent most my X3 flying the Vidar.
I can live with one ship as you'll only be flying the one with the best armaments anyway.

Flying Destroyers are boring, one of Rebirth's fault is not having the capital ship bridge or the ability to walk around your capital ship.
Flying them in X3 was torture.. As was flying Merchant ships, maneuverability was a nightmare.

bambikaka · Post by **bambikaka** » Wed, 28. Sep 16, 23:05

spankahontis wrote:
Graaf wrote: I didn't say they didn't work. Just that I think they are just as boring. Just as being able to only fly one combat-focussed ship is boring.
And I didn't specify a particular missile.
Spent most my X3 flying the Vidar.
I can live with one ship as you'll only be flying the one with the best armaments anyway.

Flying Destroyers are boring, one of Rebirth's fault is not having the capital ship bridge or the ability to walk around your capital ship.
Flying them in X3 was torture.. As was flying Merchant ships, maneuverability was a nightmare.

for you maybe... i, for one, liked flying capitals, carriers and traders, i think i put the most hours into my albatros, loaded with every kind of small ships that were scripted by myself for capital trading, exploration, capturing bailed ships, mostly travelling with the albatros launching these ships and when i had the will to fight i jumped into my falcon vanguard and devastated the field. its shields and its flaks made it a great platform with 7 ships in the bays... ohh yeah baby... but well, this isnt a valid gameplay anymore...