xpost from x-universe: analgoue stick input issue / mouse input issue

DJ Splendid · Post by **DJ Splendid** » Thu, 19. Jan 12, 10:47

Hi.

It was suggested to me that I should pursue my issue here as opposed to in the '-X-Universe' forum.

Previous thread: http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=315305

The gist is as follows:

1) Your publicly available documentation indicates that devices with two analogue sticks are compatible with the game. I already own an XBoX 360 pad (featured in the instruction manual) and I bought the game on the basis that it would be supported. I have subsequently learned that this isn't true due to an API limitation.

2) In the spirit of 'getting on with it' I have experimented with the mouse/keyboard interface but sadly I cannot make use of it because there is no feature to invert the mouse pitch in the 'Freelancer' flightmode (though the "Classic" flightmode is indeed affected by the existing variable).

3) I am very keen to enjoy X3:TC but I literally can't play it, restricted as I am by the interface. If there is no current or near-future solution to these issues, I would like a refund on the basis that the game is not compatible as advertised (and I'll try again with X:Rebirth).

I don't think a dxdiag drop is relevant but I can supply it and anything else you need in pursuit of these issues. I welcome as much tech-talk as is required (I'm a fellow engineer).

Post by **CBJ** » Thu, 19. Jan 12, 12:44

Sorry, but I'm not aware of any "documentation" that specifically states that the game includes support for devices with multiple analogue sticks, nor for that matter the exact nature of its support for any specific controller type. While I can understand that you don't like the game's control setup, making claims of false advertising is a gross exaggeration. That said, any claim for a refund, on whatever basis, should be addressed to the retailer you bought the game from.

If you are interested in pursuing possible technical solutions to your problem, most likely involving third party controller configuration tools to make the control scheme behave in the specific way that you would like it to, then I'm sure that people here would be happy to help. I should point out, however, that if you continue with the tone you took in your thread in the main forum when people tried to help you, you may find that help in short supply.

Post by **Alan Phipps** » Thu, 19. Jan 12, 13:23

I believe that the XPadder software interface is the usual saviour in these XBox 360 cases, as was suggested in the Universe thread.

DJ Splendid · Post by **DJ Splendid** » Thu, 19. Jan 12, 19:47

@ CBJ

Manual:
http://cdn.steampowered.com/Manuals/282 ... 1323983966

Pages 104-105:
http://i.imgur.com/nRLvK.jpg

Pages 106-107:
http://i.imgur.com/kwWQU.jpg

On page 106 it states, "You can change the gamepad controls to your preferences by using the controller profile". (I made my purchase on this basis).

On page 105 there is an actual picture of an Xbox 360 pad. There is a label for its left analogue stick, "Left Rocker Arm: Strafe Ship." There is a label for its right analogue stick, "Right Rocker Arm: Rotate Ship."

So yes, you have advertised the game as supporting gameplay using the pad I already own, even though it does not in fact support this.

Even with Xpadder - or any other interface mapper that I should not have to buy/configure - it is not possible to configure the pad in the way illustrated in the manual as the second stick is not seen by X3:TC at all: one merely binds other keypresses to it at the OS level. There is no analogue interpretation if one does this. As developers of the game I'm sure you understand the distinction.

In terms of the mouse issue, I can see from experimentation that the game facilitates mouse pitch inversion for the "Classic" flightmode. However, it does not for the click-to-hold, 'Freelancer-style' flightmode. The reason I have posted in the first place is because I wanted to see if I could enjoy the game by 'trying to get along with it' even though I can't use the input method I checked support for and which turned out to be unsupported.

My purpose in contacting you is twofold. Firstly to raise awareness about the device support limitations and the conflicting advertising material as I think this should be corrected. Secondly to find out if there will be a patch in the near future to allow mouse pitch inversion for the 'Freelancer-style' flightmode, as if this is the case, I can patiently wait for it rather than pursuing a refund (as I've mentioned twice now, I think game itself is probably very good, I played the originals and am keen to play the contemporary version).

Besides, pursuing a refund with Steam is nigh on impossible. Steam is not bound by legislation that protects consumers here in the UK (or anywhere outside the US in fact). They are well aware of this, and do not play ball. I have been down this route with UK Trading Standards and the UK consumer action groups before. They only issue refunds for titles in "open beta" and such.

I would like to make it clear that I have no enmity for Egosoft on this issue, I am simply trying to resolve that fact that I've essentially lost £20 in good faith and am wondering if you can help.

Rednoahl · Post by **Rednoahl** » Thu, 19. Jan 12, 22:52

DJ Splendid wrote: Even with Xpadder - or any other interface mapper that I should not have to buy/configure - it is not possible to configure the pad in the way illustrated in the manual as the second stick is not seen by X3:TC at all: one merely binds other keypresses to it at the OS level. There is no analogue interpretation if one does this. As developers of the game I'm sure you understand the distinction.

I'll just say that Xpadder works fine. I wouldn't use it if it didn't because I use it for almost everything (even if a game already supports the 360 pad - I'm sick of similar style games trying to enforce a new control scheme on me just for the hell of it.) Analog sticks work like analog sticks too otherwise nobody would use the program.

Obviously you have to manually clear any conflicting controls once you start the game for Xpadder to work properly. I'll uplaod the profile I did if you want.

L analog - strafe, R analog - steering, triggers - roll, LBandRB accel or decelerate, green - return, red - escape, blue - message, yellow - jump, Start and Back for nav comp, D-pad up and down for up and down in menu, D-pad left for docking or docking computer, D-pad right for missile select, Analog stick clicks to fire missiles or lasers.

Can't offer any assistance in the mouse thing because I regard the use of a mouse in a space trading game as heresy or something.

DJ Splendid · Post by **DJ Splendid** » Thu, 19. Jan 12, 23:47

I *genuinely* appreciate the post Rednoahl but you are mistaken if you think the input on the second stick is being processed in an analogue fashion. Many people think that this is the case. It is not.

You can bind a given mouse/key function to it with Xpadder at the OS level (or any other mapping tool) but a keypress is not an analogue thing, and the mouse action when triggered in this way is fixed to a given speed: it is not processed as an analogue input either.

X3:TC simply can't see the second stick. Mapping software like Xpadder makes the OS essentially 'press' a different button for you when you use that stick (which the OS sees, but X3:TC doesnt). X2:TC sees the fake keypress, made by the OS+mapping software.

This is evidently a tricky distinction for most judging by the extent to which I have been misunderstood so far.

A couple of guys have posted with confirmation, even stating the what the underlying API limitation is.

Because the strafe functions are digital, it is possible to use a mapping tool to bind them to the second stick (and then have pitch/yaw correctly interpreted in an analogue way on the first stick, which X3:TC can see). Fair enough. But, this means the pad litterally has its sticks the 'wrong' way around when compared to just about every game ever: typically right stick for look, left stick for right-angled motion.

Therefore, a full workaround to achieve contemporary convention using Xpadder requires physically modding the pad and swapping the sticks over.

So on the gamepad side of things, one is looking at £30 for a pad to shred and £10 for Xpadder, just to simulate a 'normal' gamepad layout with the proper fidelity.

Rednoahl · Post by **Rednoahl** » Fri, 20. Jan 12, 01:24

I left you a link to an older freeware version of Xpadder the other day, which is the version I use.

It's not that I misunderstand you at all. I simply don't care about the technical side of things because I look for immediate practical solutions that fully satisfy my needs. I've offered a working solution seconded by others, take it or leave it. X3 isn't the type of game where sub-millisecond response times are essential - if you think they are that's your own problem.

DJ Splendid · Post by **DJ Splendid** » Fri, 20. Jan 12, 01:29

I completely appreciate that you are trying to help, but it's not the response time, it's the granular feel of the change. The jolting digital input breaks immersion and stunts the action.

And, frankly, it's a hidden limitation in the software for which the opposite is advertised. This is not how things should be.

Post by **CBJ** » Tue, 24. Jan 12, 16:20

The images in the manual show generic examples of a game-pad style controller and a joystick. The labels against the controls are also examples, and in addition do not indicate the exact nature of the control input (e.g. analog or digital) that can be assigned to them. Once again, any claim that you believe you have regarding a refund is between you and the retailer.

Now, since this is the Technical Support forum and the above position has been clearly stated, I will move on to technical aspect of the issue you have raised and ask you to do the same.

On the technical side, I'm not quite sure what you are hoping to achieve. You have already acknowledged that it is possible to assign one of the sticks to the required control action, but that you just don't like the "granular feel" of it. While you're entitled to that opinion, I think it unlikely that the game would be changed just to suit your personal requirements. Earlier you also appear to have stated that the relevant API simply does not support the specific analog input you want. I'm not currently in a position to confirm that, or otherwise, but if that is indeed the case, then surely that would make any such change out of the question anyway.

DJ Splendid · Post by **DJ Splendid** » Tue, 24. Jan 12, 18:57

The image in the manual is an edited photograph of an Xbox 360 pad.

In X3:TC one cannot natively bind *anything* to the second analogue stick, on any gamepad. At all. Period. Your software uses middle ware that mathematically prevents interpretation of the second stick.

Your manual depicts a device with two analogue sticks and says, "You can change the gamepad controls to your preferences by using the controller profile."

Yet this cannot be done.

Is my experience here all about avoiding publicly acknowledging the limitation?

I am well aware that by using key mapping software - something not advertised as a requirement by yourselves - it is indeed possible to fake a keypress (bindable within X3:TC) by getting the OS to interpret movement of the second stick and 'press' the button bound in the game.

This does not negate the fact that false advertising is taking place!

It doesn't even address the control issue!
This is actually irrelevant to the concrete point above, but if one pursues this workaround, one is effectively replacing the second analogue stick with four buttons, that is to say, NOT having a second analogue stick with analogue functions, but having four buttons instead, defeating the purpose of the gamepad and the code in the game supporting analogue function.

It's just not acceptable to advertise the game as supporting a feature and which it doesn't actually support. I also think it's unacceptable to flannel less technical customers with workarounds that hide the limitation.

------------------------------------

I am not here to ask for personal tweak to the game. I am pointing out that either your advertising material needs to change or the engine needs updating to make use of middleware written in the last five years as opposed to the last fifteen years (I cannot fathom why your software is in this condition or why there is no value perceived in catching up).

Regarding the mouse query, I am interested to know if there will be a forthcoming patch to enable mouse pitch inversion for the 'Freelancer' flightmode. Pitch inversion has already been implemented for the "Classic" mode, meaning its purpose and normalcy has been accepted ie. it is not some 'weird preference'.

I wrote only to ask if there'd be a patch to address this in the short term (and by implication, raise awareness of the shortcoming).

Post by **CBJ** » Tue, 24. Jan 12, 20:37

I have already addressed the claims in the first part of your post. In answer to the second part, there are no plans for any changes to the control scheme in the game.

DJ Splendid · Post by **DJ Splendid** » Wed, 25. Jan 12, 08:55

You haven't shown you understand the points I make in the first part of my post, never mind address them.

If you DO understand them but are unwilling/unable to address them, then I think your employers need look themselves in the mirror and decide if trying to hide a material deficiency in their game is worthwhile. It certainly isn't conscionable.

Is there a rational reason behind the decision not to have an inverted mouse pitch option for the 'Freelancer' flightmode? Has the suggestion been put forward, pointing out that it has already been implemented for the "Classic" fightmode?

You just want me hush and go away, right? Yeah.

Post by **Alan Phipps** » Wed, 25. Jan 12, 15:34

OK then lets be a bit more rational then. Changing the advertising and publicity which may contain an unintentional error or omission for a 2008 game here in 2012 when that game is no longer intended to be supported is just not going to happen. In the instruction manual for X3TC there are a few 'features' described that did not make it to the release version or subsequent patches. That is a fact of game software development where the documentation must be frozen and produced before game release, a fact that most X-fans can understand and live with.

The X3AP recently released is an add-on to that game that was in many cases given as free expansion. It will not be radically changing the game engine.

I am sorry that the issue detracts so much from your enjoyment of the game. If we (the player community here) can help you to find an improving workaround then I am sure we will - if we feel empathy for the poster rather than feeling hectored.

As to your final remark about CBJ, that was unnecessary and rude. If CBJ was as sinister as you make out and actually wanted that then you would be hushed and gone by now! Thankfully he is as concerned and helpful to players as could be, as just a little research on these forums would show.