The gamepad & mouse input situation is unacceptable.

General discussions about the games by Egosoft including X-BTF, XT, X², X³: Reunion, X³: Terran Conflict and X³: Albion Prelude.

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DJ Splendid
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The gamepad & mouse input situation is unacceptable.

Post by DJ Splendid »

Hi.

First, some context.

I was big fan of X:BTF back in the day. I Used a flightstick as gamepads with an analogue stick were non-existent, never mind pads with *dual* analogue sticks. Gamepads at the time were just bunches of digital buttons and pretty useless for flight sims where any fine control was required.

That was 1998ish.

In the last ten years the consoles have driven some pretty decent advances with gamepads (though this is possibly the only area in which consoles have advanced anything as far as the end-consuming gamer is concerned).

However, many of the more hardcore PC gamers will have noticed that configurability of one's interface with games has declined over this period. In 1998 it was taken for granted that one would be able to manipulate the user functions of the game however one wanted. These days we are fed console ports with a basic menu to remap some core keys, if we are lucky. Transformers: The War For Cybertron literally doesn't support remapping keys in any way.

I bought T:TWFC on steam a 18 months or so ago, and was simply unable to play it. I have my own seriously-ingrained concept of how to play a given game from a given genre and if typical functions like reload and jump and crouch aren't where they 'should' be, I cannot derive any pleasure from the experience: the whole thing is a fight with the interface.

I sought a refund from Steam citing that I could not play the game because of the r******* assumption that the keys the developers picked would suit the user. They argued there was no 'fault'. They aren't subject to the UK 1979 Sale Of Goods Act and so they (and Acclaim) could simply jerk me around until I gave up. They didn't give a ****. They don't give a ****. They don't need to give a ****.

Since then I have been seriously careful about checking out games before I buy them. Not being able to customise the interface to a reasonable degree is a deal-breaker, for me.

X3:TC/AP has now stung me, too. It is a contemporary space combat game that simply does not support dual-analogue stick devices.

It is 2012. Flightsticks are completely obsolescent in the view of most gamers, and dual analogue stick gamepads are in virtually every 1st world house hold. Flight games involve the use of a minimum of four analogue axes: pitch/yaw/roll/throttle. Xbox, Xbox 360, PS1, PS2 and PS3 gamepads all have at least four axes. This has been the case for TEN YEARS.

I undertook my due diligence, checking out whether or not X3 would support my de facto ubiquitous PC gaming gamepad: the Xbox 360 gamepad (which can actually support 5 axes, or 6 if you do tricks with the trigger input data).

At the time, I was mostly thinking "it would be completely mental for this pad not to work" but yikes, the forums appeared busy with people asking why the second stick is not acknowledged by the game. Luckily though - or so I thought - everyone was claiming they were successfully getting around the problem with 3rd party software such as xbcd360/xmapper/controlmk/etc.

As an engineer, I found that to be a pretty major indictment of Egosoft, but seemingly something I would be able to overcome, even though I shouldn't have to.

Well, it turns out that my diligence was insufficient. There is no way to get X3 to interpret the second analogue stick. All you folks who think you've cracked it have actually just fudged a solution by having the stick trigger a digital function: there is no analogue control available on that second stick. I am not comfortable with that and I do not understand how you guys can be.

So, even though I have contemporary hardware, I have a new, useless donkey in the form of X3. I will not be able to derive the enjoyment I bought the game for, in full reasonable expectation.

In the spirit of 'just getting on with it' I have even spent a great deal of effort trying to satisfy myself with the mouse/keyboard 'Freelancer style' interface. However, even this is gimped by a ridiculous oversight: one cannot invert the mouse input for flight control. Sure, you change it for the "classic" interface (which requires shenanigans to toggle into) but not the one I expect/want/have paid for.

If I am not able to 'try before I buy' how the hell can I avoid this kind of problem?

To Egosoft: I would very much appreciate a dialogue on this issue. If there isn't at least a patch due which will allow me to invert my mouse pitch, then I would really appreciate a refund, and then I can have the cash ready for X3:Rebirth, should you have resolved the issues by then. I simply cannot derive any pleasure from the game as it stands, yet I remain a big fan of the game(s) as a whole.

Blimey. Talk about 'look but don't touch' =(

(...And let's have twenty quid off you while we're at it).
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kylania
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Post by kylania »

For flying this is a much better controller than this ever will be, period. :)
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Post by Rakeris »

I don't see what the big deal is, how is playing with a mouse and keyboard so bad...the newer control setups make it actually more enjoyable imo. I used to use joysticks back in the day too. Freespace, Homecoming, X2 etc.
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Post by Skinmeister »

Last edited by Skinmeister on Sat, 18. Feb 12, 23:26, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Morkonan »

All games should be compatible with this!

[ external image ]

Incompatibility is unacceptable!

..

I do understand, I really do. But, as this isn't primarily an "arcade" type game, I don't see the logic of a necessity for gamepad compatibility. Sure, it would be nice and I have nothing against anyone who would like to use a gamepad. But, it's not a terrible oversight at all for Egosoft to not natively support analogue functions for a gamepad in their X titles.

Dumping the game because it won't work with a gamepad is not something I can see that reflects realistic expectations or even convenience in play. But, hey, everyone has their own special thing they think is absolutely necessary for their enjoyment. Mine is good gameplay and X3 provides that. If someone thinks that gamepad play is what is more desirable, that's up to them.

I do wish Powerglove support was something Egosoft prioritized in their future titles, though... BRING BACK THE GLOVE!
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Post by Starlight_Corporation »

Also, you CAN try before you buy with X3, they got demo's avaible for exactly this reason. So at least one part of your complain is unfounded (wanted to try before buy, the option was there)

That said, the problem you describe is hardly unique to X3, or to egosoft. Plenty of companies don't support gamepads (and plenty do). However, keep in mind, there's plenty of controldevices in existence and barely any company can support them all, so choices have to be made. Where must one put the limit?
Other much seen demands to support have been IR tracking (think I got the name right) even more so then gamepads on this forum.

Last tidbit, asyou said, consolepads got an imageproblem, and that also plays in this, more complex games hardly support gamepads due to this, and vice versa, gamepad lovers tend to stay away from more complex games because they hardly support gamepads. (note, I did not say gamepad loevs don't like complax games, on the contrary, I'm sure many would love to play some, if they only would support gamepads)
The only way to change things, is to keep requesting gamepad supports at forums & try to get a following.
If you can show there's enough people interested for this, it'll make it viable for a company to implement this support (this is how IR tracking got it's support in X-Rebirth)
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Post by Skinmeister »

Last edited by Skinmeister on Sat, 18. Feb 12, 23:26, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by DJ Splendid »

kylania wrote:For flying this is a much better controller than this ever will be, period. :)
Well if we use some objective metrics:

Response time from a fingertip stick will be faster than a full-sized sticks. So you're wrong there.

It also burns more calories (more muscle mass involved in movement).

Unless you have a desk/table at a strange height, the stick will almost certainly not be in the correct position for efficient use and will inflict much more fatigue on you as a result.

The gamepads are also lighter.

And Cheaper.

And don't comprise a physical barrier when trying to get at the keyboard.

Calling 'preference' is OK, I totally support that. Calling 'better' is a mistake when something isn't better.
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DJ Splendid
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Post by DJ Splendid »

Morkonan wrote:All games should be compatible with this!

[ external image ]

Incompatibility is unacceptable!

..

I do understand, I really do. But, as this isn't primarily an "arcade" type game, I don't see the logic of a necessity for gamepad compatibility. Sure, it would be nice and I have nothing against anyone who would like to use a gamepad. But, it's not a terrible oversight at all for Egosoft to not natively support analogue functions for a gamepad in their X titles.

Dumping the game because it won't work with a gamepad is not something I can see that reflects realistic expectations or even convenience in play. But, hey, everyone has their own special thing they think is absolutely necessary for their enjoyment. Mine is good gameplay and X3 provides that. If someone thinks that gamepad play is what is more desirable, that's up to them.

I do wish Powerglove support was something Egosoft prioritized in their future titles, though... BRING BACK THE GLOVE!
I think you've somehow inferred that I'm of the 'arcadey' type or am making a whiney point of little value.

Perhaps you miss my point because you have no deeply-set preference for how you INTERFACE with games (we are not talking about gameplay here, at all). That's fine, indeed, it could be construed as an advantageous thing, gratz.

However, I am a mere mortal with 20 years of conditioned gaming hand-eye co-ordination and automatic responses. I have a vast neural library of comfortable ways to interact with my software, and my LAN party and online tournament victories tell me I've got things right - at least for me.

When one buys a space flight game, one expects to be able to set the pitch one way round or the other.

It is not ridiculous to expect this; it is ridiculous to state that the expectation is ridiculous.
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DJ Splendid
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Post by DJ Splendid »

Starlight_Corporation wrote:Also, you CAN try before you buy with X3, they got demo's avaible for exactly this reason. So at least one part of your complain is unfounded (wanted to try before buy, the option was there)

That said, the problem you describe is hardly unique to X3, or to egosoft. Plenty of companies don't support gamepads (and plenty do). However, keep in mind, there's plenty of controldevices in existence and barely any company can support them all, so choices have to be made. Where must one put the limit?
Other much seen demands to support have been IR tracking (think I got the name right) even more so then gamepads on this forum.

Last tidbit, asyou said, consolepads got an imageproblem, and that also plays in this, more complex games hardly support gamepads due to this, and vice versa, gamepad lovers tend to stay away from more complex games because they hardly support gamepads. (note, I did not say gamepad loevs don't like complax games, on the contrary, I'm sure many would love to play some, if they only would support gamepads)
The only way to change things, is to keep requesting gamepad supports at forums & try to get a following.
If you can show there's enough people interested for this, it'll make it viable for a company to implement this support (this is how IR tracking got it's support in X-Rebirth)
The is no demo listed on the Steam store page. If one exists, fine. All I can say is that I looked and didn't find it.

In terms of 'can't expect a developer to support *every* device, are you a developer?

Do you then realise there are layers of abstraction making it possible to do almost precisely that? Certainly in generic terms at the very least.

Even that aside, I'm talking about the XBOX 360 CONTROLLER.

Not the North Korean Unicorn-Leprichaun CFR-7800 Limited Edition Megastick featuring integral Russel's Teapot Logic.

As technical director, which gamepads would be in your top ten list of things-we-should-support?

I will take the risk of assuming I have made my point.
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Post by Morkonan »

DJ Splendid wrote:I think you've somehow inferred that I'm of the 'arcadey' type or am making a whiney point of little value.
No. I'm simply stating that your reasoning involving the necessity of a PC game to natively support an XBox gamepad does not make a lot of sense. However, I certainly understand that you have a particular way you like to play games. That's fine, I have no problem with that. If you liked to play games standing on your head, I'd be just fine with it. But, I wouldn't then agree that Egosoft should invert the video display of their games..
However, I am a mere mortal with 20 years of conditioned gaming hand-eye co-ordination and automatic responses. I have a vast neural library of comfortable ways to interact with my software, and my LAN party and online tournament victories tell me I've got things right - at least for me.
That's great, I'm happy for you. I've probably got a few years on you and was likely playing video games before you were born, but that means absolutely nothing except for personal conditioning and preference. That you win online tournaments means nothing except you like to tell people you win online tournaments. I have no idea if you were actually playing against someone or not..

But, understand.. I get that you're upset about not being able to use the controller you wish in the manner you wish. I do, really. My favorite joystick is sitting on a shelf because its old PS2 interface and driver set is not compatible with machines made in the past decade and a half.. Oh well, I'll have to spring for a new one, one of these days. But, in the meantime, I've learned how to use a mouse-keyboard combo very effectively. That is also something the simulation games industry has embraced, for good reason and with good effects on sales. Some producers embrace gamepads as well, some do not. (I also have an old PC gamepad, but it is also no longer compatible with anything.)

The point is, you're upset and I get that. But, don't take your angst out on me. I don't fully "grok" why X3 is so unplayable and dissatisfying for you and why you insist they should embrace gamepad support, but I do understand that you have your own preferences and I'm fine with that.
When one buys a space flight game, one expects to be able to set the pitch one way round or the other.

It is not ridiculous to expect this; it is ridiculous to state that the expectation is ridiculous.
If this were only a "space combat simulation" I might agree with you. However, it is not. The mouse, or viable substitute, is also used to navigate many nested menu configurations. Imagine a mouse with an inverted axis and trying to use that to rapidly navigate nested menus and interface display components. Then, imagine trying to allow this behavior while only making the "viewscreen" in the game invert the axis of the mouse or device. Then, imagine trying to click on an object.

Of course, as a designer, you could lock it all to the "spacebar" command switch (Whatever it is called, in game.) that initiates mouse-controlled flight control. THAT would work as the mouse can't be used to access anything else while controlling the craft. Maybe that spacebar hook is available for a mod to write a script or mod that does that for you?
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Post by Ebenezer »

The OP is dead wrong.

I play the game flawlessly with a 360 controller and xpadder. I never have to touch the keyboard unless i want type type something, ie renaming a ship.

I will say however what I find unacceptable is all the hoops you have to go through to get it to work. The command line things you have to add to the exe. Thats ridiculous. It's way past time Ego gives better support to controllers. Hopefully in Rebirth although I have a bad feeling about that game.
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Post by NeverSnake »

Skinmeister wrote:but with only a keyboard and mouse they haven't been getting the full game experience
Comments like that won't help your case.

You're are exaggerating the number of active users, there are millions of xbox 360 controllers but the vast majority of them won't ever have been plugged into something other than an xbox and the gamepad does remain a fairly niche device for PC gamers.

Looking up the DirectInput/XInput difference (url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DirectInput]here[/url]) it seems that you do have to specifically support the Xbox 360 controller using a seperate API (XInput) rather than the general one (DirectInput) and as X3TC doesn't support the specific features of any device as far as I know it seems a reasonable omission. They probably should have added it to AP though as that's supporting TrackIR now.

I wonder if that means it's just the xbox 360 controller that doesn't work and other dual-joystick gamepads will? My joystick has two analogue sticks so perhaps I should check that out (although the second one is mouse emulation so it may just be picked up as that).

EDIT: There's an invert mouse pitch option in the control settings. Works fine for me unless you're after side to side inversion or something else.
Last edited by NeverSnake on Tue, 17. Jan 12, 14:00, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by ConCorDian »

DJ Splendid wrote:I will take the risk of assuming I have made my point.
actually no you havn't, if you look on the forums the Xbox 360 controller is supported, and there is a how to somewhere for it for those who cant get it to work.

as for steam, your not getting any more or less a service you get here in the UK with them. to begin with Steam would never be subject the the "sale of goods act" purly because you:

A. dont actually receive any goods, you recieve a service from steam which there has been a lot of legal rambling about weither or not the amended after amended Legislation your talking about actually applies.

B. even if Steam did conform to that particular legislation your issue is not with steam its with the support for the game.

so therefore what your looking at is the Distance Selling Regulations which by the "thirdpartylegalnotice.doc" distributed by steam means they have more or less met every bit of criteria, if you just happened not to read or pay attention to these documents and fall foul to them then that is only one persons fault and lets say its not mine :wink:

as for my statement to you get no more or less from steam than you would from a game store in the UK when buying a computer game. put it this way.... what is one question you SHOULD get asked by every game store? "are you sure this game works on your computer?" so guess what thats the exact same thing your complaining about. that is there get out clause it just happens steam made a really nice blunt statement:
Steam wrote: LEGAL ISSUES
============

In plain English:

1. We don't promise that this software works. (But if you find any bugs,
please let us know!)
2. You can use this software for whatever you want. You don't have to pay us.
3. You may not pretend that you wrote this software. If you use it in a
program, you must acknowledge somewhere in your documentation that
you've used the IJG code.
as i said the only difference is steam dont sugar coat it with smiles and round-a-bout wording.

as for people who want to use a game controller that is their choice but this is a game based on "flight" and therefore having something more realistic such as joysticks should be EGOSOFTS main priority over gamepad compatibility. but thats my opinion, some will agree and others wont, i personally dont care because that is MY OPINION

but on a totally different subject. try to calm down, on here youll only get peoples backs up if you come storming threw like a comet and to be honest there are parts of what you have been saying thats been boarderline disrespectful. youll find quite a few heated discussions on this forum but even then they at least keep a bit of respect for those they are "debating" with
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Post by Skinmeister »

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Post by NeverSnake »

NeverSnake wrote:I wonder if that means it's just the xbox 360 controller that doesn't work and other dual-joystick gamepads will? My joystick has two analogue sticks so perhaps I should check that out (although the second one is mouse emulation so it may just be picked up as that).
Just checked, my Saitek X52 has no trouble using the first five of it's axes in game (proper ones, not digital hats) so it looks like an issue specific to the XBox 360 controller & copies using the Xinput API rather than a general lack of support for dual-stick gamepads.
Last edited by NeverSnake on Tue, 17. Jan 12, 14:37, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Triaxx2 »

XboX pads are fine and work reasonably well for controlling the game. There are instructions here on the forums for making them work, and frankly, at the time the game was created, was before there were XboX pads for the PC. So they never really expected to have to support another platforms controls.

Plus they redesigned the control scheme from Reunion, so that you wouldn't have to have a joystick, or control pad. So that's the whole reason behind no native support.
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Post by ConCorDian »

Skinmeister wrote:So joypads are unrealistic flight controllers are they? Well the RAF doesn't seem to think so, as they use Xbox 360 controllers to fly their latest high-tech UAVs.
fair enough, when we launch combat drones we can control them with the xbox controller... but last time i checked we were in theory IN the cockpit of our ships, not onboard the carrier watching a monitor remotely flying them.

As i said i have no issue with people who want to use them, everyone is entitled to decide what they are more comfortable using, but from my point of veiw the joystick would have been what would be the main target for compatability over the joypad. if you dont agree with that then that is your choice, just happens the joystick is mine.
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Post by Shineon »

I agree with the original poster.

I've been playing since X3 and have used both keyboard/mouse and a MS Joystick. In combat the Joystick feels much more immersive and is my preference for this game. Mouse/keyboard feel a little more gamey and also unpredictable, but each to their own.

To me X is the best game I have ever played, but I do think the controller support should have been sorted by now. My girlfriend, after watching me play for years, wanted to play. We installed it but, coming from a background of XBOX gaming, she wanted to use the PC XBOX 360 controller that I have. She couldnt use the Joystick, which is first choice, as I am using it. But after much tweaking and following of old, obscure posts as to how to set this up with 3rd party software, we could not make it work and gave up.

It's time the controller support was fixed, or its just another thing to overcome for new users who's preferred control method is a joypad (of which I would imagine there are quite a few out there, considering the prevelence of consoles in the gaming world), on top of the difficulties new players have getting into the game.

Hey, I'm sure Egosoft are smart enough to have this sorted for Rebirth.

Regards.

PS: Nice one for the pic Skinmeister. Hey, if it's good enough for the RAF.... :)
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Post by Morkonan »

Skinmeister wrote:..So joypads are unrealistic flight controllers are they? Well the RAF doesn't seem to think so, as they use Xbox 360 controllers to fly their latest high-tech UAVs....
Err.. No.

They may use them in the field to fly man-portable, hand-launched miniature UAVs. But, they're not using X-Box controllers to fly the "latest high-tech" UAVs.

Large pic - RAF UAV Pilot in a proper control bay

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