Russia-Ukraine War

[Falcrack]

Hopefully Biden wakes up from his nap and sends as much aid to Ukraine as he possibly can while his term in office remains.

I'm sure Biden will do what he can to keep the war going, but obviously there is a rising sentiment to close the purse strings and force Ukraine to face the reality of their losses. Biden will face increasingly fierce headwinds if he seeks to continue his support of the war machine and its dark purposes.

If Ukraine collapses and is forced to surrender to Russia, then Trump will totally, 100% own it.

If Russia invaded your country, what would your attitude be? Surrender and live as a slave? Or fight for your freedoms, even if it meant risking death? The thing is, Russia could be quite realistically be defeated, if only we did not defeat ourselves through listening to our own fears.

To be clear, even if US support ended completely, I think Ukraine is right to keep fighting for their freedoms, even if the cause seems hopeless.

[Chips]

Or fight for your freedoms, even if it meant risking death?

For Ukranians, you don't even need to fight for the latter "risking death".

@ Observe, lets just remember...

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases ... -expresses

He added that the Commission is currently investigating executions in 16 towns and settlements, and has received credible allegations regarding many more such cases. Common elements to these crimes included the prior detention of the victims and visible signs of execution, such as hands tied behind backs, gunshot wounds to the head, and slit throats.

Witnesses provided the Commission with consistent accounts of ill-treatment and torture carried out during unlawful confinement. Some of the victims reported that after initial detention by Russian forces in Ukraine, they were transferred to the Russian Federation and held for weeks in detention centres, where they were subjected to torture and other forms of ill-treatment.

The investigation into sexual and gender-based violence has shown that some Russian Federation soldiers committed such crimes. The age of victims of sexual and gender-based violence ranged from four to 82 years.

This isn't, for the people of Ukraine, necessarily "if you surrender then you can carry on living in your country as a free citizen". There's a real, documented, acknowledged, risk that you'll be tortured, sexually abused, or executed. Ages 4 through to 84.

So before you consider it's "right that a country subjugates itself for its own good" - just remind yourself what you're trying to tell people they should just accept. For *your* belief in *their* benefit. Potential death, rape, torture and displacement.

Would you accept others telling you that was something *you* should accept? If so, then fine. Consistent view is consistent. Otherwise, if USA wants to withdraw it's support (that it is potentially going to profit off of VERY handsomely as those lend-leases aren't the freebies certain press make you believe it is), let Ukraine decide what it wants to do.

Personally, if they want to fight, we should support it. We can differ on that - hopefully Europe and the rest of NATO holds a similar view to mine, so they'll possibly survive. Have to wait and see though - Trump has a history of doing things different to what he says - and when he sees the dollar signs...

[felter]

The way I see it, if Trump pulls support for Ukraine, then all it does is free Ukraine up from the restrictions that America has been forcing onto them in exchange for American support. There are plenty of countries, the UK included, that want to allow Ukraine to use its weapons to attack Russian soil, it's only America that is stopping that from happening. So America pulling its support for Ukraine will not stop the war, it will escalate it and make it worse, mainly for Russia.

Also remember, Trump fully intends to pull America out of NATO, which will probably result in more backing for Ukraine from other NATO countries, without the American influence. To be honest, Trump thinks pulling America out of NATO is a good idea, I think it will hurt America more than anyone else, as I said it frees others from American influence but at the same time America will lose access to all of NATO's covert information, also remember there has only been a single country that has used article 5, America and the next time they won't be able to use it, so no one is coming to their aid and with them bring on their own they open themselves up to a greater chance of another terrorist attack.

The only issue is what will Trump do when his good buddy Putin asks him for help. Here's a question, how long do you think it Wil take Trump to remove sanctions from the Russia oligarchs. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if we eventually see American soldiers fighting for Russia in Ukraine alongside the North Koreans, they are Trump BFF's after all.

[LordBaal]

There’s speculation that Trump’s relationship with Russian leaders might lead to softer stances on Russian oligarchs and other sanctions, potentially weakening the economic pressure on Russia. However, the idea of Americans fighting alongside Russia seems unlikely given the strong, bipartisan support for Ukraine across most of the political spectrum

[mr.WHO]

People forget very important factor, no matter how dumb you think Trump is...Putin is dummer.

It's only a matter of time before he step on Trump toe - take your pick:
laying claim to Alaska
arming Iran
arming Houti
arming every terrorist organization with letter H
constant hacking and sabotage operations
cooperating with China
wanking to BRICS and de-dolarization
competition to US in "Drill baby Drill"
...
probably dozens more


Trump might smile to Putin and try to warm to him, but Putin will wake up every day with RNG dice roll on every single case above - we all know it's quite easy to antagonize Big Orange

There is no chance in hell Russia would resign from majority of items this list, so they are literally playing russian roulette...with almost fully loaded revolver

[fiksal]

Yep, this can go wildly in many directions. I do still think Russia cant sustain this and will fail, but the path to that is looking murky.

[Falcrack]

I want to say a few words about those who refer to supporters of providing military support to Ukraine as "warmongers", since I've heard it a few times.

I have no desire for war. If I had my wish, there would be no wars. No need for a military. No weapons.

But we live in a world where there are leaders of nations with evil intentions, who would not hesitate to invade and enslave other nations to satisfy their pride and ego. As long as such people exist, if we wish to preserve the freedom and sovereignty of the nations in which we reside, we must have weapons, and must be prepared to use them in our defense.

If stronger nations are free to invade their weaker neighbors, with no fear of repurcussions from allies of the smaller weaker nation, the bullies and narcissist who lead these more powerful nations will not be afraid to use their military to invade and subjugate whichever nations have policies they do not like, or which have resources they covet.

So a person who advocates appeasement, who is willing to cut off support for a smaller, weaker nation that is being invaded, is actually one of the most insidious forms of warmonger there is. Because by advocating "peace", which really means defeat and eslavement of the weaker nation, they are in fact encouraging the invader to invade others, since they got away with it the first time.

Why is it that those who claim to be against "warmongers" specifically those against providing military aid to Ukraine, act in the service of the real warmongers, such as Putin, who does not hesitate to invade and kill unless he is stopped? Do they not realize that by advocating for Ukraine's capitulation, supposedly for the noble purpose of saving Ukrainian lives, they are in fact advocating for a far more dangerous world in which wars of conquest become the norm?

Would it be fair if I referred to those who advocate peace at any cost (meaning the defeat of Ukraine, and with concessions of land, people, and ability to conduct their own national policies) as slavemongers? Because really, to advocate cutting off vital support, which we in the West could easily afford with very little comparative sacrifice, is to advocate for slavery of those whose sin was to be a weaker, smaller neighbor next to a nation of bullies.

[chew-ie]

@Falcrack

Don't worry - all this "warmongering" talk towards supporters of Ukraine is just a coined phrase coming from Putins ratcatchers who he placed everywhere.

Everybody with a half decent education is able to look through this fabrication which only exists to distract from the warmongering Russia is doing. Oldest trick in the world - do something bad and acuse the other side of doing the very exact thing. And bam - "intellectuals" are caught in pro-cons discussion while stalling reaction to the real danger.

[fiksal]

reading Russian news one picks up certain set of skills

those are translating words used into correct words

all anti-war people in Russia were detained or jailed. All pro Kremlin are pro war. All that support Putin's goals are pro war.

It's that simple.

I have applied this rule before and made a mental note about a couple people here

[Falcrack]

reading Russian news one picks up certain set of skills

those are translating words used into correct words

all anti-war people in Russia were detained or jailed. All pro Kremlin are pro war. All that support Putin's goals are pro war.

It's that simple.

I have applied this rule before and made a mental note about a couple people here

I have Observed the same.

[mr.WHO]

If stronger nations are free to invade their weaker neighbors, with no fear of repurcussions from allies of the smaller weaker nation, the bullies and narcissist who lead these more powerful nations will not be afraid to use their military to invade and subjugate whichever nations have policies they do not like, or which have resources they covet.

So a person who advocates appeasement, who is willing to cut off support for a smaller, weaker nation that is being invaded, is actually one of the most insidious forms of warmonger there is. Because by advocating "peace", which really means defeat and eslavement of the weaker nation, they are in fact encouraging the invader to invade others, since they got away with it the first time.

Why is it that those who claim to be against "warmongers" specifically those against providing military aid to Ukraine, act in the service of the real warmongers, such as Putin, who does not hesitate to invade and kill unless he is stopped? Do they not realize that by advocating for Ukraine's capitulation, supposedly for the noble purpose of saving Ukrainian lives, they are in fact advocating for a far more dangerous world in which wars of conquest become the norm?

This might also have something to do between cultural differences of West and East.


Historically, untill WW2:
In the East - when there is one big power (Imperial China), the weaker ones had no choice but to submit to it, making it that bandwagoning was prefered strategy to keep peace.
In the West - when there was one big power (HRE, Napoleonic France, German Empire), the weaker ones had no choice, but to band together as a counterbalance and deterrant (proto-WW2 Allies).


With such different strategies, these two can easily see eachother as warmongers.

That's also a reason why it's so hard and takes so long to create Pacific NATO...and in Europe to submitt to Russia, or Germany or France or EU.

[Vertigo 7]

That's not exactly what he was referring to. There's some pacifist, hippies, cowards, whatever you wanna call them, that would rather see Ukraine quickly fall to Russia than prolong the conflict without thought for what that means for the citizenry of Ukraine by playing a simple loss of life numbers game against self-defense and self-determination.

[CBJ]

This is getting too personal again. Please dial back on that.

[Falcrack]

This is getting too personal again. Please dial back on that.

You're right. I need to always remind myself that even though I may feel passionately about a subject (in this case, about the need to provide military support to Ukraine), there are others who feel the opposite, and each is convinced of the rightness of their position. I need to have a bit more empathy, even if disagree with another's opinion. That's not to say I won't oppose what I see to be wrong, but I'll try to not be personal about it.

[mr.WHO]

To be honest, there is an overlap here.


What I provided is just a historic and political context, that is used by Russian/Chinese disinformation.
This is then for whatever reason picked by "the hippies".


In the end, the final benchmark is geography and death toll:
Ukraine is geographically, and now politically and economically part of the West.
"Eastern Style" Russian reunification brought only death and ruin to both Russia and Ukraine.

It's clear which way is correct in this time and place.

[EGO_Aut]

Carl Sandburg: Sometime they’ll give a war and nobody will come

Franky "Two tribes"
https://youtu.be/pO1HC8pHZw0?si=GcKZUEkMdVAg6RAq

But no, many have to be killed for others egos.
Not the warmongers children will die, but innocents.

Better make love, not war

[fiksal]

"Let the Orcs come as thick as summer-moths round a candle!"

[Observe]

Zelensky says war will 'end sooner' with Trump as president.

It is certain that the war will end sooner with the policies of the team that will now lead the White House. This is their approach, their promise to their citizens,” Zelensky said in an interview with the Ukrainian media outlet Suspilne.

He added that Ukraine "must do everything so that this war ends next year, ends through diplomatic means", with Russian forces making advances on the battlefield.

Now, if Zelensky changed the words of his "victory plane" to "surrender plan", we might actually get somewhere. Effectively, it is going to come down to that anyway. The only question is how many more lives must be thrown away before cognition of reality sets in.

Russia will keep what it has stolen, and there must be assurances that NATO will stay out of Ukraine, or that at least there be a neutral buffer region. Given the battlefield situation, these conditions have been obvious for a long time.

[mr.WHO]

Even if US would indeed cease all support in February, there is still enough support from EU and other countries for Ukraine to put a fight for a year or year and half.
Wonder, if Russia still has a year? Now they are even taking cold war tanks from film company (Mosfilm studio) to put in combat.
The sattelite photos of those huge vechicle depots getting emptier and emptier with every month.


On the other news, cool footage of tank battle with lone Leopard 2 vs russian assault convoy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYVCY8G_SmI

[Observe]

Wonder, if Russia still has a year?

People were wondering that a year ago. I wouldn't bet on Russia folding first.

Ukraine has suffered at least 70,000 deaths and at least twice as many wounded. Add that to the fact that 25% or so of the population has fled Ukraine. One wonders what the point is in continuing the hemorrhage, with little more than the hope that Russia will somehow collapse. Sure, Russia has suffered heavier battlefield losses, but then they have a larger population reserve to enable their continuation. Anyway, enough is enough.