Israel War

[fiksal]

Doesn't seem like there's gonna be peace with Hamas still existing.

I would think eliminating them should be everyone's priority number one. And yet some countries fail to speak against them.

And where are these people marching demanding end of Hamas

[Observe]

Doesn't seem like there's gonna be peace with Hamas still existing.

And yet, Hamas won an election to the govern the Gaza strip. Evidently, this was widely considered a fair election at the time. This makes me wonder, even if Hamas is eliminated, how widely spread within the Gaza populous is the sentiment to destroy Israel? Is getting rid of Hamas enough? What's the next logical step? Genocide? Prolonged Israeli occupation and subjugation of Palestinians? What's the end game here? I'm not sure Israel has thought that far.

[fiksal]

Doesn't seem like there's gonna be peace with Hamas still existing.

And yet, Hamas won an election to the govern the Gaza strip. Evidently, this was widely considered a fair election at the time. This makes me wonder, even if Hamas is eliminated, how widely spread within the Gaza populous is the sentiment to destroy Israel? Is getting rid of Hamas enough? What's the next logical step? Genocide? Prolonged Israeli occupation and subjugation of Palestinians? What's the end game here? I'm not sure Israel has thought that far.

All good questions to which I have no answers.

They still need to go even if they they were the popular choice. People should try again.

[burger1]

It looks like Dagestan people mobbed a Russian airport and stopped traffic checking passports and stuff for Jewish people. Russian police dispersed the large group. Might currently be besieging a hotel???

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/30/europe/r ... index.html

Twenty people were injured, including some police officers, the republic's health ministry said. Some have serious injuries and two are in critical condition.

https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/news/anti-i ... 38322.html

[EGO_Aut]

Doesn't seem like there's gonna be peace with Hamas still existing.

And yet, Hamas won an election to the govern the Gaza strip. Evidently, this was widely considered a fair election at the time. This makes me wonder, even if Hamas is eliminated, how widely spread within the Gaza populous is the sentiment to destroy Israel? Is getting rid of Hamas enough? What's the next logical step? Genocide? Prolonged Israeli occupation and subjugation of Palestinians? What's the end game here? I'm not sure Israel has thought that far.

Genocide, of course, but hidden. For every Jew killed, 10 Muslims were killed, the policy since the murder of PM Rabin by a radical right-wing Jew has not been humane. An ideal breeding ground for radicals on both sides, the stronger will win, the weaker will die or have to leave the country.

I miss a de-escalating dialogue like in the 1990s under Rabin/Arafat, then the goals of the radicals would no longer be desirable. They almost managed to come to an agreement (Madrid/Oslo), but after the failure, Israel is moving more and more away from democracy towards a fundamental theocracy. There are many young Israelis who do not agree with this.

Edit: My grief is not your weapon. - The Washington Post https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va ... re-jewish/

[Warenwolf]

Doesn't seem like there's gonna be peace with Hamas still existing.

And yet, Hamas won an election to the govern the Gaza strip. Evidently, this was widely considered a fair election at the time. This makes me wonder, even if Hamas is eliminated, how widely spread within the Gaza populous is the sentiment to destroy Israel?

They won it once... in 2007.... Important back then being that Hamas was seen as far less corrupt than immensely corrupt Fatah. They won a very "narrow" plurality (44,45%) over next largest party, Fatah, by 0.02 percent points. And then they said "good enough" and held no elections ever since.

They still need to go even if they they were the popular choice. People should try again.

Now, this may sound weird and even absurd for certain segments of the people reading this but even if Hamas was eliminated in its entirety today, the current status quo* in the conflict between Israel and Palestinians will just generate another such movement. It may have another name or ideology but the violence will be its tools.

*prior to the latest round of violence, Gaza was a reservation area with no natural resources and Palestinian areas in West Bank are almost 50% absorbed by now by Israeli settlers which are heavily subsidized by Israeli government with 60 % of the area being run by Israel, 22% by shared control and 18% run by PA.

[Cpt.Jericho]

Now, this may sound weird and even absurd for certain segments of the people reading this but even if Hamas was eliminated in its entirety today, the current status quo* in the conflict between Israel and Palestinians will just generate another such movement. It may have another name or ideology but the violence will be its tools.

Why weird or absurd? It's exactly what would happen. "War on terrorism" has spawned more militant fundamentalist movements than it ended. No one right in his mind would believe that ending Hamas would end a decades old conflict that is the result of permanent oppression and the violation of international laws.

[mr.WHO]

It looks like Dagestan people mobbed a Russian airport and stopped traffic checking passports and stuff for Jewish people. Russian police dispersed the large group. Might currently be besieging a hotel???

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/30/europe/r ... index.html

Twenty people were injured, including some police officers, the republic's health ministry said. Some have serious injuries and two are in critical condition.

https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/news/anti-i ... 38322.html

Pogroms are in fashion again in Russia?

[Warenwolf]

Now, this may sound weird and even absurd for certain segments of the people reading this but even if Hamas was eliminated in its entirety today, the current status quo* in the conflict between Israel and Palestinians will just generate another such movement. It may have another name or ideology but the violence will be its tools.

Why weird or absurd? It's exactly what would happen. "War on terrorism" has spawned more militant fundamentalist movements than it ended. No one right in his mind would believe that ending Hamas would end a decades old conflict that is the result of permanent oppression and the violation of international laws.

If you think "war on terrorism" has led to any learning what so ever, I have a bridge to sell you. Granted, going into that endeavor in first place, certain people ignored 1000 year of written history.

And for learning (on either side) to happen, you have to have access to full picture of the conflict.

Google Ezra Yachin and compare the articles about that guy in US,UK and Germany.

https://nypost.com/2023/10/10/95-year-o ... errorists/
https://www.themirror.com/news/95-year- ... ins-137112
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/18 ... zra-yachin
https://www.bild.de/politik/ausland/pol ... .bild.html

Same guy urging IDF soldiers to kill mothers, children etc and urging Jews to kill their Arab neighbors.
https://www.aljazeera.com/program/newsf ... -reservist

See the difference on reporting?

In before people jump in to react all offended - not gonna say that Arabs, living in certain countries, are getting the whole picture either - I am not that naive. Egyptian news are comedy specials from what my friends from there tell me. There are probably lot of examples of other way around.

My point is more that if people are just consuming certain media, they may very well be surprised if I say that long term without genuine political solution more violence is to be expected Hamas or no Hamas. Is that going happen? iNope.... Is this conflict going to go on when my kids' kids' kids are around -yes it will.

[fiksal]

Even if taking out Hamas will not solve such a long conflict, and I don't imagine it by itself will, Hamas has to go.

I don't see how having it around helps anything, other than adding more content to 'executions' channels

Pogroms are in fashion again in Russia?

Russia always finds a way to stand out. Other than semi official support of Hamas and Iran, if not outright sponsoring them, Russia was never really fan of Jewish people. Some people in Russia naively think it isn't so.

[Cpt.Jericho]

So, you propose to simply murder every single last of them along with an unknown number collaterals? Is this how justice takes place in democratic countries these days?

[Observe]

...Russia was never really fan of Jewish people. Some people in Russia naively think it isn't so.

It appears that Russia has a long history of expelling Jews, as has much of Europe as well. For one reason or another, whether because of religion or something else, Jews have a history of not being liked very much. Giving Jews a homeland, may have seemed a good idea - except that meant displacing the Palestinian residents, many of whom have been living in refugee tent camps, with extreme oppression ever since. The creation of Israel, at the expense of Palestinians, has got to be one of the biggest blunders in modern history.

[fiksal]

I can't speak or explain to why this happened in Russia and keeps happening.

Lack of moral fiber maybe

So, you propose to simply murder every single last of them along with an unknown number collaterals? Is this how justice takes place in democratic countries these days?

Are you asking me? or just saying what you think out loud?

Because I don't see a real question to me here

[clakclak]

So, you propose to simply murder every single last of them along with an unknown number collaterals? Is this how justice takes place in democratic countries these days?

I have seen nobody here call for murder of entire groups of people so I do not know where this question comes from, but please people, if we are at a point in the discussion where these questions get asked can we please all collectively cool down again. This is not going to go anywhere good or productive otherwise.

[EGO_Aut]

So, you propose to simply murder every single last of them along with an unknown number collaterals? Is this how justice takes place in democratic countries these days?

Meanwhile, Israeli bulldozers are attacking Palestinian infrastructure and settlements in Jena (West Bank). Only a few civilian casualties, perhaps they flew into a rage and threw a few stones at the converted bulldozer tanks as their homes were destroyed.

[Cpt.Jericho]

Even if taking out Hamas will not solve such a long conflict, and I don't imagine it by itself will, Hamas has to go.

Then what did you mean with "has to go"?

[mr.WHO]

I think the problem is that IDF and Mosad screw-up and went to holidays, instead of doing their damn job.
Now they are wenting their frustration on Palestinian civilians.


You know who did their job on that day?
Israeli Navy - they had a literal "shoot the fish in the barrel" with Hamas fighters trying to attack from the sea and wiped them all.

If the IDF and Mosad did their job, the same should have been with Hamas crossing the land border fence and those air gliders as well - no whining about Hamas hiding among civilians and heavy urban areas - they would have been on a plate served - just point the gun and pull the trigger - you couldn't wish for better and cleaner opportunity wipe Hamas that way and nobody in the world would even bat an eye.

[fiksal]

Even if taking out Hamas will not solve such a long conflict, and I don't imagine it by itself will, Hamas has to go.

Then what did you mean with "has to go"?

captured, arrested, tried, killed with appropriate planning to limit civilian casualties

in contrast to two other extremes: of doing nothing / validating them or disregard for collateral damage to civilians


or third example of excusing, aiding, as demonstrated by some countries like Russia

[Cpt.Jericho]

So, for you murdering them is an option as long as there's no or little collateral damage.

[mr.WHO]

Hamas attacking IDF, or IDF attacking Hamas in open field with no civilian collateral dammage is the definition of clean war.
Sadly it's rarely seen as opportunity for either side.

Imagine if Hamas, instead of going for civilians went only for those miltiary bases and police stations - there wouldn't be any outrage outside IDF.
Same would be, if IDF was actually prepared and ambush them the moment they went out of Gaza.

In both scenarios, winned would probably receive a lot of congratulations and whole operation would enter the history and miltiary text books.

Instead we have reality...full of war crimes.