Did Egosoft miss what the fans wanted?

[catacost]

Literally came here to make this same point. Every item on your list is everything my friends and I hated about X:R but they're doubling down in in X:F

Looks like they forked X:R and made walking seamless, something we didn't need. Still looks like X:R in every other way, so of course we will reject this, X:R was a nightmare.

Ego if you want to succeed here you need to make it look totally different than X:R, stop investing in the walking tech and make that an entirely optional experience if you're going to leave it in.

The map is bad now, some will call it an improvement over X3 but it's still bad, invest in better UI/UX direction. Targeting controller/console market is completely misguided, this is a PC game through and through. You're sacrificing what you do well to do something else poorly.

[BigBANGtheory]

1. All ships flyable
2. New Map UI that does stuff
3. Economy based on the universal assets

Those features alone mapped back to X3 would be a god send... Yeah Egosoft has been listening

[Juggernaut93]

The map is bad now, some will call it an improvement over X3 but it's still bad, invest in better UI/UX direction. Targeting controller/console market is completely misguided, this is a PC game through and through. You're sacrificing what you do well to do something else poorly.

I don't know why lots of people keep saying that the map is targeting console market. Tell me how a map in which you can select multiple objects with the mouse or in which drag and drop works is designed for a console. Drag and drop is what a mouse is best suited for.

[Ketraar]

2. New Map UI that does stuff

It only took you half a decade to "bitch" about RTS styles Map.

My question is: are you happy now?

MFG

Ketraar

[spankahontis]

They really emphasized, "Hey guys we brought back multiple ships!!!" and we've yet to hear/see much of a response to all the other complaints about Rebirth. What I will say is that it looks like a low budget indie game more than it does X3: TC/AP.

I'm not taking a position, I just want to make the thread as medium for discussion and maybe a resource for Egosoft.

- We don't need walking around.

Whole point of exploration is to use your feet, everything else you fly around.
They've already said that they've reduced the amount of station travel you need to do.
I personally prefer walking around in stations, my only complaint was there was little to do there.
Space Sims are going the walking around route, Star Citizen, Elite Dangerous etc.
Getting rid of it is a terrible move and Egosoft are trying to cater to the recluse pilot sort, but there are people here who feel the same way as me, it has promise when it is properly implemented; having everything your way is selfish, not everyone has the same tastes as you, not all of us want to play the Pirate roll, not all of us want to be a bounty hunter or a merchant etc. Some people hate walking on stations, some people do. Egosoft is trying their best by what we've seen so far to cater to both camps, a compromise.
Sometimes you got to bite the bullet and accept that a feature isn't going away, especially this one, too much time has been poured into it.
I do hope they have seriously improved on it and we don't have that stupid mini-game, or at least have multiple things to do, give people a reason to travel to stations other than needing an upgrade or repair.

- Why does it look so much like Rebirth?

Because it's the same engine, the X3 Engine has gone as far as it can, Egosoft have mentioned this in the past that the Engine has become too big and is becoming unmanageable; it's reached the limits of what it can do.

- Graphics style seems off (see above question).

Maybe they haven't finished the graphics yet? and it's what they could rustle up for the presentation in a short space of time?
X:Rebirths graphics were perfectly fine, but not everyone will be satisfied, just the way it is.

- The menu system looks like it's designed for consoles.

They said that about X:Rebirth, then experts went through the code and debunked the infamous 'X-Box Codes' Even Bernd mentioned that they implement X-Box friendly codes in order to test parts of the game engine.. Rebirth is simply too complex for consoles.
That X4: Foundations will be a console port? To me, is laughable.

- What was wrong with the map system in X3?

Personally I hated the X:3 Map, it was nothing to write home about, sure it was simple, but I remember the nightmare of building Custom Stations in Sectors that had allot of micro-asteroids like Elena's Fortune and that Split Sector near Family Rhonkar's, the placeholder would freak out all over the place and there's searching for the West Gate in Maelstrom, was an utter nightmare to click in the top left corner of the map to find it; sorry but that's clearly some terrible bugs in the map design; would hate to see that in X4: Foundations.
X:Rebirth's map however was much worse than that before they updated it post-2.0 patch. 4.0 it's loads better and more interactive than X:3's.
But everyone's opinion is different in the end.

- Poor character animations, again.

Compared to X:3? It's an improvement.
But again Egosoft is going from 2D rendered models to full 3D animated Bi-pedal models.
I feel the reason why they haven't put Boron into this game is that it must be hard for them to implement a model that walks on squid-like tentacles, all those extra limbs/bones?
Maybe they need to hire someone who's an expert in this field? Personally I think Lino does a decent job, Egosoft isn't Chris Roberts, I think we should cut them some slack on this and give them time to improve.. Again, too soon to tell.

- Get rid of highways.

Bernd pointed out that Core regions have highways while the border regions don't.. So it caters to those like myself who like the Highway system and to those like yourself who don't with the border regions of space.
Again, they are doing what they can to satisfy both camps on this, so everyone gets a compromise, not just yourself.

- Flight system looks the same as Rebirth, not as good as X3.

Too early days to see what they've done for fleet management, which was the largest gripe of the crowd, myself included. Seeing the scroll down lists when you point to ships on the right list reminded me of the right panel on the map from X3; but again too early to tell.

[RichardDaborn]

X4 looks like the old X3 games but brought up to date I'm all for it.

Please give us our radars back.

Those awful NPCs from Rebirth please lose them or at least make them far better to look and interact with.

Highways. I'm ok with that just drop those stupid 'mini game' style mechanics while you are inside.

[xirsoi]

I for one am completely stoked for this. They've already got my money, as far as I'm concerned. I've spent hundreds of hours in XR and absolutely adore it (even if mods are required to make it the best it can be).

There are few things that irk me about XR right now, one of them is that I feel it absolutely necessary to use mods that make smalltalk largely unnecessary.

I actually want to see *more* walkability for stations. I was disappointed that I couldn't walk from one dock to another. I wanna traverse the whole station! I don't want to *have* to, of course. But sometimes I wanna walk around the magnificent station that I just spent 30 hours building the fortune to make.

I'd also like to see something like the Capital Ship Bridge mod made official.

[BigBANGtheory]

2. New Map UI that does stuff

It only took you half a decade to "bitch" about RTS styles Map.

My question is: are you happy now?

I'd like to think I added a little more than simply bitching about it, but we all have our off days I guess

I was very happy with what we saw, it had the essential components of a tactical and powerful UI better than I hoped for if I'm honest. The proof will be in its usability so I will keep an open mind and my expectations in check until its ready to be shown again.

Guess I'm gonna have to change my forum sig now

Ultimately I hope it will be well received and well used by the players... What did you think of it?

[Ynemey]

All of the criticisms the OP posted pertain to X Rebirth being a bad game and passing that onto X4, even though X3 is not that much better than X Rebirth. How could you possibly criticise highways if they are optional to use? That would be like saying we need less ships to fly. It doesn't make sense if boosters, SETA, and jump drives exist as alternatives. This is simply irrational hate for X Rebirth, which is glaringly obvious considering it is a good game now.

[cherbert1701]

I haven't posted for years. I am not going to allow the vocal minority to ruin this. X4 so far is everything I want from an X-Game and that includes being able to step out of my ship on a platform and enter another.

X-Rebirth currently is a great game and also gorgeous to look at. I never really got into X3. I hated the lack of cockpits and dislike the dated graphic style. X2 looks dated but it carries a certain charm. I think X-Rebirth and X4 have that same charm factor.

I am honestly surprised the hate people gave them over X-Rebirth didn't bankrupt them as a company. I feel blessed that we are actually going to get an proper X4 game.

So here I am, one of the silent majority coming out of retirement to make sure Egosoft don't get bullied into questioning their vision. We have another year or more to wait and I hope it's not going to be a year of hate and negativity.

[Alee Enn]

I haven't posted for years. I am not going to allow the vocal minority to ruin this. X4 so far is everything I want from an X-Game and that includes being able to step out of my ship on a platform and enter another.

X-Rebirth currently is a great game and also gorgeous to look at. I never really got into X3. I hated the lack of cockpits and dislike the dated graphic style. X2 looks dated but it carries a certain charm. I think X-Rebirth and X4 have that same charm factor.

I am honestly surprised the hate people gave them over X-Rebirth didn't bankrupt them as a company. I feel blessed that we are actually going to get an proper X4 game.

So here I am, one of the silent majority coming out of retirement to make sure Egosoft don't get bullied into questioning their vision. We have another year or more to wait and I hope it's not going to be a year of hate and negativity.

What surprises me is why now all of a sudden are people hating on X3? Yes it had its flaws, but there wasn't the hate for it then that I'm seeing since Egosoft announced X4.

As for the vocal minority, if what I saw happen to Elite Dangerous is anything to go by, there is/are a group/groups out there that want to ruin games just for the sake of it. They'll use dirty tricks to shout the loudest. Trust that Egosoft are sensible enough to see through this.

[quarren]

I don't think "the fans" can ever be viewed as a single entity.

Despising X Rebirth and everything new it brought to the table seems to be all the rage among "the fans", but I can't get behind that. Don't get me wrong, I probably liked X3 as much as the next guy, but it wasn't a perfect game either.

- We don't need walking around.

Fine. While walking around on stations wasn't my favourite feature in X Rebirth (mainly because you weren't able to view outside space from inside the station), I didn't mind it either. It managed to get across a sense of scale. If Egosoft sets their focus right and lets you catch awesome sights from the docking ports or lets you watch space from station interiors, I will be all for it. I guess I like "walking around".

Why does it look so much like Rebirth?.

Probably reuses assets and uses the same engine (although the underlying renderer has changed). Personally, I liked the look of X Rebirth.

- Graphics style seems off (see above question).

Can you get more specific? I'd agree on the overuse of bright, primary colors.

- The menu system looks like it's designed for consoles.

How so? This point I don't get. The map, for example, seems to be designed for mouse-use?

- What was wrong with the map system in X3?

Sorry, but there were a lot of things wrong with it, same with the map in X Rebirth though. The new map seems to be a step in the right direction.

- Poor character animations, again.

I'd say the walking/running animations were decent. But yeah, character animation possibly isn't Egosoft's strong suit.

- Get rid of highways.

I'd personally not like to get rid of them entirely. After all, they now exist "in lore" and it'd be weird if they just disappeared. Maybe have a nice balance of highways, gates, and free-to-roam space?

- Flight system looks the same as Rebirth, not as good as X3.

Specifically, what was so good about the flight system in X3? Again, flight mechanics have unfortunately never been a strong point in X games IMHO (I'd say I like X-Tensions mechanics the best in retrospect). But yes, I'd prefer ships to feel more "weighty" in space.

Best regards,
quarren

[Ketraar]

I'd like to think I added a little more than simply bitching about it, but we all have our off days I guess

Indeed, I was trying to be funny, that it its not, has not stopped me in the past.

Ultimately I hope it will be well received and well used by the players... What did you think of it?

As a fellow RTS fan, I like the look of it and the interactivity. Having the ability to filter stuff and mini/maximise lists seems a good approach to the potential size of information in need to be displayed.

I have mixed feelings of it being accessible "on top" of the players view and would have preferred it to be more "integrated" into the environment, but will be happy for functionality over immersion any day. I'm optimistic and eager to get a hands on feel for it asap.

MFG

Ketraar

[Phinixa]

Im gonna shamelessly copy quarren's post to keep the quote structure
Its my first post after a loooooong time.

- We don't need walking around.

Well, we don't need it. But for me as a space-fan, its just awesome to explore stations!

Why does it look so much like Rebirth?.

You serious? Its an early alpha, they probably use many assets and settings from XRVR to have a base. Starting from total scratch is way more costly and time-consuming.

- Graphics style seems off (see above question).

Actually I think it looks okay at the moment. Post-Processing with colors is one of the last things done in a game and Im sure we can modify it via scripts or DLL-mods like sweetfx later on.

- The menu system looks like it's designed for consoles.

Did you really just say that? There is a mouse cursor, A MOUSE CURSOR. That immediatly kills consoles.

- What was wrong with the map system in X3?

Actually the controls of the X3 map have been driving me nuts till day 1. Now we can smoothly zoom and pan with the mouse. I love it.

- Poor character animations, again.

Animations are, again a part that is optimized later on in game development. They work now, thats enough to build the core game.

- Get rid of highways.

I don't get this highway crying. Freelancer is now 14 years old and it had highways(called trade-routes). And Freelancer was, though way more casual, one of the best space-sims of all time.

- Flight system looks the same as Rebirth, not as good as X3.

I think that the flight system looks okay now. I can't say anything until I tested it myself.

[blotunga]

- Get rid of highways.

I don't get this highway crying. Freelancer is now 14 years old and it had highways(called trade-routes). And Freelancer was, though way more casual, one of the best space-sims of all time.

The bad about highways in X Rebirth for me is that I got so used to jumping around into sectors in X2-X3 and now I have to waste a lot of time traveling between parts of sectors. In X3:TC I could jump around 150 sectors in no-time (except the Sol sectors which were equally annoying), here I have to fool around for 25 minutes in highways whenever I want to go somewhere.

[Vandragorax]

Please read before voting, thanks!

I've been looking through the comments of the announcement trailer and it seems like a majority of people are really really unhappy and put off by the content shown in the trailer.

I've compiled a list of common/popular complaints:
- We don't need walking around.
- Why does it look so much like Rebirth?
- Graphics style seems off (see above question).
- The menu system looks like it's designed for consoles.
- What was wrong with the map system in X3?
- Poor character animations, again.
- Get rid of highways.
- Flight system looks the same as Rebirth, not as good as X3.

They really emphasized, "Hey guys we brought back multiple ships!!!" and we've yet to hear/see much of a response to all the other complaints about Rebirth. What I will say is that it looks like a low budget indie game more than it does X3: TC/AP.

I'm not taking a position, I just want to make the thread as medium for discussion and maybe a resource for Egosoft.

Are you kidding? I actually disagree with every single one of your points, and I played heavily X2, X3, and X:R (plus all expansions/DLC for each). lol

[linolafett]

Guess I'm gonna have to change my forum sig now

Your sig was bugging me all the years, hope i we could design an UI which makes you want to remove that signature

[StoneLegionYT]

I said No since I think they know what we wanted Rebirth was another game type and they stated that. But of course it's also too soon to tell.

[Sandalpocalypse]

What surprises me is why now all of a sudden are people hating on X3? Yes it had its flaws, but there wasn't the hate for it then that I'm seeing since Egosoft announced X4.

People largely made their peace with its flaws, and there was little point in bringing them up. Even so i dont see anyone expressing acid hate for x3 like others do for XR.

- Get rid of highways.

I don't get this highway crying. Freelancer is now 14 years old and it had highways(called trade-routes). And Freelancer was, though way more casual, one of the best space-sims of all time.

The bad about highways in X Rebirth for me is that I got so used to jumping around into sectors in X2-X3 and now I have to waste a lot of time traveling between parts of sectors. In X3:TC I could jump around 150 sectors in no-time (except the Sol sectors which were equally annoying), here I have to fool around for 25 minutes in highways whenever I want to go somewhere.

Rebirth has some problems with irritating highway layouts. But jumpdrives in X3 made distance so incredibly meaningless. It really hurt a lot of aspects of the game, not least of which is the economy; the ai essentially had to be artificially stupid and not use jumpdrives to preserve economy gameplay; Universe Traders were profit-printing machines with no player interaction whatsoever; enemies were all artificially stupid, else why not jump out when in trouble; and so on and so forth. There wasnt a lot of difference between being in one place and being in another. And there was no realistic notion of defensive perimeters or anything like that, you could jump your whole fleet to Paranid prime and wreck it if you wanted, with little regard for strategy of any kind.

The Teleporter seems like a good compromise on moving around between your assets and gameplay; maybe I missed it but I dont remember any details on how Jump drives will work in X4. Presumably they will be more limited like XR.


Edit: Fixed a quote - Sparky

[ravisoul]

said no becouse i saw evrything i wanted x4 to be!