X4 with some procedural content but classic X style...impossible?

[Gligli]

X3 had a certain amount of procedural content - god spawned/despawned objects based on supply/demand.

Basic on X3 but relevant. (auto add/remove npc station)

That was a good direction imo - have a nice handcrafted world, and balance or expand it depending on ingame events/statistics.
This should be taken even further: content generation should be tied even more to ingame events (by a much more 'competent' faction AI for ex).

That's it. For example.
Xenon were able to pin weaken sector and resupply it. Meaning massive fleet movement Or strategic target, from 'we don't know where' (basic too)

Random generated content is just plain boring in any game imo, even if it can be huge.[/quote]

Sure, there shall be evaluations before, about how many and how to use it...

[pref]

Xenon were able to pin weaken sector and resupply it. Meaning massive fleet movement Or strategic target, from 'we don't know where' (basic too)

Or if that sector is too well defended, then chose a weaker one, or build a new SY in an unknown sector and attack in bigger numbers.

[Realspace]

I see your points, guys, very interesting

I suppose that despite wich model is used (procedural or scaling detailed texturing) what bothers me of the game is the lack of immersion in its design at space simulation level (but at least in Rebirth you can have real inertial physics).

Actually exploration in X2/3 was just to map a new room (aka sector), but the design did not break immersion.

Devs always said they don't want to implement features that are not fully credible (right!), well for my taste that's exactly what they did with Rebirth, with those highways and other stuff.. the first time I saw Devrie System it made me laugh...really. So then of course you do missions, build stations..but have always the sensation it is all fake and copy/paste elements.

Game's design such as in movies is all about suspension of disbelief...I had it the first time I played X2, not at all with Rebirth despite its finer details.

Hope we can rely on some kind of Galaxy Editor soon or later, such as there is in X3, to see the real potential of this engine to create belivable systems.

Up to then, I went back to X3, wich after some modding (I'm upgrading many things in its visuals and sector's layout) at least is better looking than Rebirth in space simulation elements and is still a pleasure to play.

What's the improvement of using a superhighway instead of a transorbital accelerator is above my comprehension, both are not interactive.

For instance, whatch what this guy is doing in recreating a planetary simulation for X3...that's not different from Rebirth (even better for my taste)

http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=378051

btw I'm quite sure he's using my backgrounds mod in his video...cool

[GCU Grey Area]

What's the improvement of using a superhighway instead of a transorbital accelerator of is above my comprehension, both are not interactive.

Prefer superhighways myself because I can see the transition from one sector to the next. I can also see other ships using the same method of travel & either ram them out of the way, or dodge around them, depending on my mood. Can even take potshots at ships in the highway if I feel like it. Much more interesting IMO than the plain black screen you get to look at while using a TOA.

[GTAVC]

Just to clarify the difference betwen Procedural Generation and Handcrafted:

Procedural Generation - How Games Create Infinite Worlds - Extra Credits
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgbuWfGeG2o

[Gligli]

Nice contribution

(...) Much more interesting IMO than the plain black screen you get to look at while using a TOA.

We don't have the deformation on our faces due to gravity acceleration... No fun...

[Lander1979]

I vote for quality over quantity. Procedural generation IMO is just the sacrifice of quality and individualism for a sheer mass of sterile and sometimes non-sensical quantity.

[Snafu_X3]

X3 had a certain amount of procedural content - god spawned/despawned objects based on supply/demand.

That was a good direction imo

I agree FWIW, altho I don't think the GoD engine was procedural in the sense of the term we're discussing here..

However, GoD (if implemented in X:R) would require fully destructable stations.. with the consequent possibility that the economy would nosedive (remember the howls of anguish when the last essential NPC <product> station was destroyed OOS? I do..)

If (say) all RMP or Fusion Reactor-producing stations are destroyed before <player> gets a chance to build replacements, then all station/ship building is stuffed forever after GoD may help with that, but with the new station-build game mechanics it may take weeks before such an essential supplier is back up & running

[Graaf]

Much more interesting IMO than the plain black screen you get to look at while using a TOA.

When using the TOA and the Rebirth engine wouldn't that give you a hyperspace jump effect? Remember, you're not actually entering another system, you're propelled forward into the same system.

Besides, comparing X3's singlecore-engine system-transfer handling 230+ system with Rebirths multicore engine and 4 system really isn't fair. I expect the Rebirth-engine to also have some trouble handling 230+ systems.


As for the topic at hand, why can't we make a slightly bigger universe with procedural generation and have them fine tune it afterwards? It doesn't have to be a real galaxy, but having one with just 500 systems would give us plenty of room and time to explore for a while.

[Gligli]

As for the topic at hand, why can't we make a slightly bigger universe with procedural generation and have them fine tune it afterwards?

That's the way I used to maintain a different map per week on a personal economic game server (OpenTTD). Tweaking both the map and generator each time...

Good idea for a region dedicated to exploration for example. But that needs a generator... A heavy one I think, if races are involved... and the IA seems not actually afford to be involved in something...

[GCU Grey Area]

Besides, comparing X3's singlecore-engine system-transfer handling 230+ system with Rebirths multicore engine and 4 system really isn't fair.

No it isn't - X3's sectors are far simpler than XR's systems. The two can't really be compared in any meaningful sense, they are different orders of magnitude. For example, compare X3 Omicron Lyrae with the system in XR which bears the same name. The latter is a far busier place with many times more stations & ships; an entire self sufficient economy, rather than just a handful of factories plus shipyard, equipment dock & trade station.

As for the topic at hand, why can't we make a slightly bigger universe with procedural generation and have them fine tune it afterwards? It doesn't have to be a real galaxy, but having one with just 500 systems would give us plenty of room and time to explore for a while.

500 SYSTEMS!

Don't think you have any idea what you're asking for. Taking the existing XR systems as a benchmark, that would be somewhere around 1,500 - 2,000 sectors, comprised of maybe 12,000 - 15,000 zones. If each one of those systems were similar the ones in XR they'd contain somewhere in the vicinity of perhaps 30,000 - 40,000 stations.

Shudder to think how many NPC ships you'd need to keep an economy on that scale running, or indeed what sort of hardware would be required to run it (very much doubt my machine would be sufficient for the task). Just don't think it's a practical suggestion, even with procedural generation.

Personally would be happy if the next game adds a handful of well made hand crafted systems, maybe doubling the total size of the map (i.e. similar to the change in map size between XBTF & X2).

[Gligli]

500 SYSTEMS!

Personally, I rad 500 Zones

[Graaf]

Besides, comparing X3's singlecore-engine system-transfer handling 230+ system with Rebirths multicore engine and 4 system really isn't fair.

No it isn't - X3's sectors are far simpler than XR's systems. The two can't really be compared in any meaningful sense, they are different orders of magnitude. For example, compare X3 Omicron Lyrae with the system in XR which bears the same name. The latter is a far busier place with many times more stations & ships; an entire self sufficient economy, rather than just a handful of factories plus shipyard, equipment dock & trade station.

Not really. All they did was to make the box between the gates bigger. And from what little I have seen it is still mostly 2-dimensional.

As for the topic at hand, why can't we make a slightly bigger universe with procedural generation and have them fine tune it afterwards? It doesn't have to be a real galaxy, but having one with just 500 systems would give us plenty of room and time to explore for a while.

500 SYSTEMS!

I'd though I'd start small.

Don't think you have any idea what you're asking for. Taking the existing XR systems as a benchmark, that would be somewhere around 1,500 - 2,000 sectors, comprised of maybe 12,000 - 15,000 zones. If each one of those systems were similar the ones in XR they'd contain somewhere in the vicinity of perhaps 30,000 - 40,000 stations.

Taking Rebirths average it gets approx. 20,000 stations. But then again, not every system does have to be populated.

...or indeed what sort of hardware would be required to run it ...

Obviously a PC. The engine is already using multiple cores. And most of all those thousands of ships are still running OOS

Personally would be happy if the next game adds a handful of well made hand crafted systems, maybe doubling the total size of the map (i.e. similar to the change in map size between XBTF & X2).

Egosoft is a small studio and they need to do a lot of work to make something good out of the next title. Less eyecandy would be my advice.

[GCU Grey Area]

All they did was to make the box between the gates bigger.

Not 'all' - they also put a hell of a lot more stuff inside the box.

Could you honestly say you could play an entire X3 game staying in just 1 sector without ever feeling the urge to fly through a gate & go somewhere else? Don't think I could do that for long in X3 (maybe an hour or 2 at most), whereas many of my XR games have been exactly like that & lasted months - there's more than enough to do (trading, fighting, building, etc) that I never get round to leaving the system I started in, particularly in my more Build focused games.

That's why I'd prefer any effort on building a bigger universe to be put into adding a relatively small number of hand made systems (particularly if they included Boron & Paranid controlled systems), rather than a vast expanse of bland procedurally generated systems - i.e. focus on quality rather than quantity.

[Sparky Sparkycorp]

Besides, comparing X3's singlecore-engine system-transfer handling 230+ system with Rebirths multicore engine and 4 system really isn't fair.

No it isn't - X3's sectors are far simpler than XR's systems. The two can't really be compared in any meaningful sense, they are different orders of magnitude. For example, compare X3 Omicron Lyrae with the system in XR which bears the same name. The latter is a far busier place with many times more stations & ships; an entire self sufficient economy, rather than just a handful of factories plus shipyard, equipment dock & trade station.

Not really.

Yes, really. Rebirth Sectors are far more complex than typical X3-era Sectors. Comparing the scope of all those X3-ear Sectors to Rebirth Sectors is as bad as comparing Argon Prime to Sol. Rebirth Sectors are more like Aldrin in scale. Although since it looks like you are counting Sol Sectors as X3 Systems, who knows what you are comparing.

[Graaf]

Besides, comparing X3's singlecore-engine system-transfer handling 230+ system with Rebirths multicore engine and 4 system really isn't fair.

No it isn't - X3's sectors are far simpler than XR's systems. The two can't really be compared in any meaningful sense, they are different orders of magnitude. For example, compare X3 Omicron Lyrae with the system in XR which bears the same name. The latter is a far busier place with many times more stations & ships; an entire self sufficient economy, rather than just a handful of factories plus shipyard, equipment dock & trade station.

Not really.

Yes, really. Rebirth Sectors are far more complex than typical X3-era Sectors. Comparing the scope of all those X3-ear Sectors to Rebirth Sectors is as bad as comparing Argon Prime to Sol. Rebirth Sectors are more like Aldrin in scale. Although since it looks like you are counting Sol Sectors as X3 Systems, who knows what you are comparing.

I'm sorry. Its 200+ systems then & Sol.

Still 50x bigger then Rebirth considering there is still a lot of space outside the gate-boxes.

But I admit I stand corrected.

[UniTrader]

You also know that according to Lore all the Argon Space around Argon Prime is supposed to be the same System? its just that back in X-BtF there were no accelerators so these were connected by gates instead. Similiar for the Territories of other Races.

also if you mean much space outside the Gate-Boxes: i did some short calculations and when you use the 512.000.000 km³ per Sector which are selectable in the X3 Map as useable Volume you could put the entire X3 Universe millions of times inside the Skydome of a single XR Cluster. (Skydome Border in XR is somewhere around 1Mm which results in a Volume of 4.188.790.204.786.390.500km³)
assuming the real Size of Sectors (8.000 km side length instead of 800) still does not change this.

and when you now come with "thats only empty space" - you started with that

[MegaJohnny]

The simple fact is that a cluster in XR contains many times more objects to be simulated than a system in X3.

[Graaf]

You also know that according to Lore all the Argon Space around Argon Prime is supposed to be the same System? its just that back in X-BtF there were no accelerators so these were connected by gates instead. Similiar for the Territories of other Races.

Never heard of that. But if it where true then the one star, Sonra, has the biggest goldilock zone ever recorded.

also if you mean much space outside the Gate-Boxes: i did some short calculations and when you use the 512.000.000 km³ per Sector which are selectable in the X3 Map as useable Volume you could put the entire X3 Universe millions of times inside the Skydome of a single XR Cluster. (Skydome Border in XR is somewhere around 1Mm which results in a Volume of 4.188.790.204.786.390.500km³)
assuming the real Size of Sectors (8.000 km side length instead of 800) still does not change this.

and when you now come with "thats only empty space" - you started with that

Nice. But the "universe" still is Rebirths 4 solar systems vs X3's 200. Making X3 so much more interesting.

[A5PECT]

Nice. But the "universe" still is Rebirths 4 solar systems vs X3's 200. Making X3 so much more interesting.

I'd have to disagree there. X3's high sector count is a lot of distinction with little difference. I've played at least 1500 hours of TC/AP, and there are only a handful of sectors I that actually stand out in terms of aesthetics or gameplay. It's like a first person shooter having 40 different guns, except 35 of them are functionally identical assault rifles. Even before factoring in their larger dimensions, I'd much rather have 20 of Rebirth's sectors over 200 of X3's.