Multiplayer for X Games

[Emaze]

Mmm.. SETA could be possible in multiplayer, just modify it a bit. For example, creating some kind of localized time distortion around the ship, like a comet's tail behind it or perhaps turning the ship into somekind of semi-transparant ghost ship and then moving ridiculously fast. Wouldnt that look realy cool??

As for multiplayer, why do half-assed job by doing just a lan option, granted it would be great, but not realy worth it. You may as well create an entire multiplayer universe while your at it, but thats a big investment which would have to be carefully considered (e.g. massive servers, net code, updates, GMs etc.). And if they do decide to do it, they probably (hopefully) will include a LAN option. By then individuals would buy their own massive servers a la Lineage 2 or WoW or some others (dont know EVE). So its all or nothing really

[Rapier]

If they want to pay me to do it I will, just like any programmer for a game would get paid.

If you want to put together a business case for Bernd then go ahead, I'm sure he'd welcome it. However, I'm just as sure that the folk programming this game aren't stupid and would have already done it if it were that simple. Like you say, it's not impossible, but I'm sure it is more difficult than has been suggested here.

[MasterUltima]

There are two possible ways to develop X multiplayer mode:

1) Peer to Peer
This solution is used in all realtime strategy games and would make it possible to have up to about 8 players (or more) playing the same game because it does only send all your actions, like turning around, boost speed, commanding ships / stations etc to the other players and they use it to change their very own x universe simulation on their PC. Thats why you can use so called 'maphacks' to remove the Fog of War, because every computer is calculating the game itself and has 100% of game information and your computer is only changing what other players tell them to change in their game.


pros
+ playable with 56k with 8 or more players

cons
- a VERY IMPORTANT negative is for me here, that if just only one connection of one player is bad, the entire game lags!!! Play an RTS game and have just one bad connection of one player in your game and you have lag like hell! Imaging now what this solution would be 'funny' if your flying around with your Dragon and cannot hit even one pirate, just because one guy has a bad connection....

- EVERY player that started the game has to be in the game at the same time! You cannot play just a second without only one other player that doesnt actually have the time to play. If one player's game or PC crashes or loses the internet connection, the game of EVERY player will fail and you will have to reload from the last saved game!! The rule with this solution is, the slowest makes the gamespeed.

- hard to program cause of out of lots of possible synchronisation errors



2) Client / Server
This solution is mostly used for action games. The game itself is calculated on the Server PC and saved there. The clients are the players, which connect to the server.
The server then only sends to every player only what he actually sees. If you are entering a new sector in the universe, the server will have to send you all the ships and stations that are actually in this sector.
Now we come to the real action: Every ship needs a direction vector update when it changes speed or is flying in another direction. Say we need 40 bytes network bandwith (and this is already very much) for one ship changing its direction vector, then you would be able to have with a 56k modem 179,2 direction vector changes per second.
Now lets say every ship is changing its direction vector every 2 seconds at average (I think its more to 3 or 4, but we want to have the critical value here), then we would be able to handle up to about 300 ships with a 56k modem, in which the player is actually flying.

As we can see, we did THREE TIMES heavy round down, and still can handle up to 300 ships with a 56k modem!

pros
+ every player can individually connect to and disconnect from a running server. The game does not stop if a players game crashes or loses connection etc

+ the game is only calculated on the server, so all the CPU performance that usually is in every X game used by the heavy logic calculations of all the calculated stations and ships, doesnt effect the players CPU anymore. That makes local graphics run much faster!

+ the game is running and saved on the server, so no maphack or cheating is possible

+ your reaction time (ping) only depends on the connection between you and the server

cons
- server needs upload bandwith, just as a multiple of the number of players playing on it

- playable with 56k modem SERVER with about 4 players, if you have DSL and make the server, you can host way more depending on your upload speed


Conclusion
For a game that you would like to have some fun with shooting some scum, its recommended to use the client/server solution. When the network bandwith is optimzezed, Im sure you can have with 7 kilobytes / second upload 3 other players on your own server. As you remember we did three heavy round downs there, and still can handle up to 300 ships in every sector. And now tell me a sector where you have 300 ships? Just imaging the sector information list, with 300 ships long!! LOL! Could use a filter function then!
Now why only 3 other players? Just because YOU are the server if you want to, and dont have ot send the gamedata to yourself! So you + 3 other player = 4 players with an just a 56k modem connection!! HURRAY



Now to come to Egosoft
As every developper of a game, yes would like to have it! Like they would like to have an X-Online Universe! Dreams are welcome, but the reality is more different. Egosoft doesnt have enough money to even finish a game, as we have seen with X3. They dont even have enough sells to say their publisher we have to move the release. They never did have even the power to say their publisher that they need more money to pay programmers to develop a multiplayer part.
And just to come to a simple fact: implementing a multiplayer part in an existing game-code is not that easy as it seems. The entire fundamentals of the game have to replaced and programmed completely new. And as you can see if you be smart, the code of X3 is about 80% of X2, and they still didnt got all the new stuff implemented as they wanted. In fact they didnt even managed to make it bugfree and balanced.

Now you come and want a multiplayer part? The only solution would be, go to Egosoft and tell them you will make it for free.

[MasterUltima]

I have to add something to my Client/Server calculation to make make it go:

Say you have average 50 ships in every sector ( and this is the FORTH VERY HIGH NUMBER USED HERE), then you have
50 (ships) / 2 (updates every 2 seconds) * 40 (bytes per update)
=> exactly 1,000 bytes network bandwith you need per player per second

If you have a modem now, you should be able to host easily 7 other players, that makes it possible to play even with Client / Server and just a 56k modem connectio with up to 8 playersr at all! If you think an a modern DSL connection with about 15 kilobytes / second upload, you could handle 16 players in one game.
And if its optimzied network bandwith as said, you should be able to handle many more players at once!

[Cycrow]

u seem to state that peer-topeer uses less bandwidth than client/server ?
maybe im reading it wrong, but that really isn't the case

Client/Server uses a central server that maintains the whole universe, and updates each client, so each client has 1 connection, and sends and receivers one lot of game data

in peer-to-peer, theres no central server, and every computer holds the universe. and then each computer has connections equalling the number of players, so the bandwidth needs for each player is eponential as the players increase as apoased to linear of the client/server

of your you get the hosts ability to cheat on peer-to-peer as it gets priority

[Da_Imp]

I would love too see a LAN version/Mod added. max of 2-4 players would do . not too much too ask for is it

Having some experience in writing netcode I can say that trying to add network support to an existing product as a mod is either very difficult or downright impossible.

So yeah, I guess it is too much to ask for

[Player.]

I like the "non oniline" x universe

[MasterUltima]

u seem to state that peer-topeer uses less bandwidth than client/server ?
maybe im reading it wrong, but that really isn't the case

If you see my Client / Server data traffic calculations on my second post then you can imaging why its more than just sending the actions of the players, even if you have to send it multiple times to every other player thats in the game.

With peer to peer, you send just your actions. Now say we have set our ship speed to 0. This command needs the 'turn tick id' which is say it in big 64-bits huge ( I always calculate in worst cases), and then the 'command id' which is SET_PLAYER_SHIP_SPEED and 32-bits (oh yeah ), and then the new speed as 32-bits value too.
=> 8 + 4 + 4 = 16 Bytes to send at one player

Now lets have 8 players in your game, send it to 7 other players then
=> 16 * 7 = 112 Bytes network bandwith at all for the command


If the user can make up to 5 actions in a second (which is worst case again, but I would think nobody uses the keyboard etc. so fast )
=> 5 * 112 = 560 Bytes network bandwith per second that is send at worst case. I would really wonder if you would waste so much space on the network protocol as I did here today

But usually you will have about 1 or 2 actions a player makes a second. So the bandwith will be not more than 250 bytes a second with 8 players in the game.

[Stevio]

multiplayer would be fantastic but it would LAG like hell.

it would be funny though along comes a noob in his m5

booooooooooooom

along comes me in my M2

there would have to be a way to stop people blowing people up randomly.

like adding a block that only allows you to fight other players in fighting sectors

and the economy would have to be huge to accomodate all the players to trade

[Crush]

as much as i "like" playing with dumb ai traders, i would like to compete with real and intelligent people. and i also hate to leave my bandwidth unused... it's just like having a hummer and just lookin' at it...

[Submarine]

I like the "non oniline" x universe

me too, X universe is single player

if you want to go online then there are MMO options like Eve or Jumpgate if you prefer less demanding graphics. If you dont want to play these then ask yourself why not and consider what X4 would have to be like for you to play with other people online.

If you made X universe multiplayer it would not be X universe anymore. You would have to make balance and engine changes that would stop it being the game it is.

Of course you can do that but then the developer would not have the time or resources to refine X as a single player and it would fall between two stools.

Cooperative play style would be nice of course but few people play together for the hundreds of hours it takes to complete an economic game of X. So all you are left with is a combat sim and while there arent many around at the moment its true, that is not a good reason to divert Xuniverse development into a new genre... IMHO

[euclid]

I was more thinking in line with the Haegemonia LAN Mp/Skimish option.

One PC acts as a server and the other hook in.

You have just very few maps, say max 4 sectors, where you can play.

Transfer rates should not be a big deal in a LAN game. However, the server PC must be a mighty powerful one. It needs to keep track on all ships, crates, stations in every sector for every player.

But as it has been said already, the current state (at least of X2) KC coding does not allow any network modifications.

It might be possible that EGOSOFT develops a MP LAN expansion X2. The question is: are we (the players) willing to pay for it and how much, of course.

Cheers Euclid

[pasty11]

Instead of an expansion to X3 the next step for ego is obvious.

X3 Fleet Battles.

Multiplayer online battles in the X universe. Not everyones cup ot T but will appeal to a wider audience and will onsell them into the standard X game.

I for one would love to engage an enemy fleet consisting of M6s-M1s and all the variations thereof all controled by other players whilst say in the cockpit of my trusty mamba raider.

Given the variation and diversity of ships and a good command interface you could also have a game with a deep strategic layer .


This would

1. Levarage exisitng graphics engine

2. Allow egosoft to develop net coding skills necesarry to take the whole cat and cabudle online.

3. Create a product that appeals to a wider market and is perfect for the console platform. Battlefield 2 in space.

Whist you may not like the above product it would bring on stream the reveneus needed to create the game that you did want. I for one would lilke both. Relishing both my chances to prove my ace combat skills to the online world and then go onto fight trade think in the sublime and well funded X4.

[Submarine]

yes fine , a nice idea, but they have enough trouble completing X3 so what makes you think they have the resources to complete that not-so-little project.

I agree they should capitalise, expand a little and finish X3 properly and then find add-ons that people want. Online play could enlarge their fanbase if it was well designed and executed. But though I dont want to be cruel one has to face reality. X is very quaint and fun but complex and sometimes gives the impression it is designed on the back of an envelope. X is a cult game and survives on a different economic scale from EA games and thank goodness for that.

They dont seem to be adopting the expansion strategy possibly because if they do that they run the risk of blowing up their own company due to overexpansion and folding in bankruptcy (which does happen) at which point we lose the game forever or if they get a wealthy sponsor we may lose the character of X universe in a pop game, destroyed by EA/Sierra/Infogrames(oh sorry 'Atari') corporate politics within whichever company supplied the capital.

They are playing it cautiously and trying to get the most out their existing X-aware programmers and maintaining a sustainable balance between income and expense. Its a wise policy to be careful but on the other hand its chicken and egg. If they could ensure expansion provided real returns that would increase the games popularity then it would be worth doing financially as it would pay for itself. I think a limited and very carefully considered expansion would be worth doing as they need some fresh thinking on overall game design and accessibility. Though if coding the game is anything like playing it, it may take years for new staff to learn the ropes as I would suspect the documentation might be a little... shall we say, patchy !!

I can appreciate it is a ticklish situation.

[AgtSmith]

Obviously, MP is possible for the game. I agree a MODer would have a damn hard time doing it (if not impossible time) but the developers could do it fairly easily. What I mean by that is it would be no harder than CoD MP, BF MP, or adding MP tp any RPG or RTS - it just has to be done.

Given that X3 was sold for $29 at the store I was at I would think adding MP would justify selling it for $50 like most other games these days so there is a way to recoop the extra time involved. Now that X3 is out though I would think a $25 expansion would be a viable option but maybe the better idea is to work to include MP in X4.

As I said, I don't think the game as is lends itself to a large common persistent universe that everyone loads into but I do think it would lend itself well to an RTS type system allowing a few pals to load into another pals existing X universe. And despite what some people say here in the grand scheme of game development doing such a thing would NOT be a big deal. Yes, it would be a bigger deal than a free patch - but it would be completely in line with an expansion for this game or with an addition to the next X game.

One thing I would work into the game, even as a patch to the existing, would be some community com system. Even a simple IM program worked into the GUI of this game would go along way to making the X Universe a little more alive, it would also help allot with the learning curve for new players which is so high that I am certain money is lost from people not getting into it.

Point is that if X wants to go forward with success MP is an essential component, I believe. Do it in an X-way so it is as unique a MP as the X series of games have been. Be creative and find a way to link up the strong community of supporters that X seems to have so that the franchise is healthy and capable of supporting not only itself but new people and new experiences. Not sure I am getting my point across as I am kind of new to X so it is hard to give specific examples of something you could add in that wouldn't require huge netcode implementation but that could enrich the game. But in a generic sense why can't you trade with other X universes? I mean all that needs added for this to happen is to be able to encapsulate a data packet and send it to a remote destination - since trading is not real time sensitive like combat is.

I understand the point of them being on shoestring budget and being a cult game and the challenges that presents; but consider for a moment that maybe the reason they got a shoestring budget and a cult following is because of the lack of some of these things that the mainstream typically demands, or expects. Full blow EVE Online type MP would be allot to ask for a patch, I know - but I think the developers should consider some kind of RTS style MP as an expansion and a patch to go along with that that at the least adds some IM system to the current SP as well as some kind of trading to it too. This could enrich the existing X universe immensely and provide a good revenue boost while X4 is worked on which should build towards a even more rich MP component.

Of course, I am not a game developer so what do I know.

[fadius]

MP is something they should have considered when creating X3 as they had X2 down pretty good.

I underatand it is a cult game. But look at Freelancer. The MP of this game, and a community which loves tha game, have kept it going well beyond the life as far as the developers are conserned.

I am glad to see my post has created a lot of talk about it. I love the play of X way better than freelancer, but the bottom line is, MP will make X a way better game that will last well beyond it's development does.

Why not use the MODing community to assist in expanding the game. There are so many MODers out there that can do some awsome things. I am not one of them, but have benefited from there abilities in so many games.

As was said, X s currently not surviving on it's own sales, but that of EA's other games and software. There is enough interest in X to keep EA putting money into it, but this will stop after X3 due to it;s incompleteness. Yes the graphics rock and game play is as it should be for the most part. But for a strictly single player game, the story is one of the biggest aspects of it and that is not done well in X3 IMO.

[dotC0M]

MasterUltima .... The client/server would probably be the best option to go with. Peer to peer is OK, but if people are lagging, it screws up the ENTIRE game.

The client server still could be run from one PC that is playing the game so long as they have a fast computer. For example, I could probably run it on my P4 3.0 ghz, 1gig ram and possibly play the game while just using a LAN, not even online.

I wonder if EgoSoft will actualy program something like this OR allow us to MOD the game so someone can add the funtionality for multiplayer.

We'll have to wait and see ....

You started a great topic here fadius

[dotC0M]

So good that I had to register to post

[fadius]

The bad part of Eve online is you have to pay to play. If a MP add-on would be added to X, anyone could host a server and others could join it.

[daedalao]

I cannot believe how many of you seem to think, and the moderators especially, that when we say "multiplayer" we mean massively multiplayer. Most of us would be happy to have a four player limit and be restricted to lan play. In reality this is all that I want. Of course, in order for someone in the community to do this, we'd have to have the source code... which isn't going to happen, not with such a new game...

Anyways, I'm tired of having to play Freelancer when I go visit my family, let's get a lan capable x game

Doesn't matter either way right now, as I'm in college, and no one here seems to play games...