POLL: Should Egosoft make X4 VR compatible?

[NightIntruder]

Try it. I played it like that and it is more immersive than you think.

I tried it once, a couple of years ago. As a long-time TrackIR/VR user, I was not thrilled with the effect. It would just be a huge screen strapped to the player's head, no depth effect. The only positive thing for me was a better sense of size. So, I agree, there's added bit of immersion there (for players who never tried headtracking solutions, supposedly) but at the expense of performance and some money, as you need to buy Virtual Desktop app from Steam.

Just one reminder for all VR enthusiasts - it might be technologically viable option, but what you gonna do with the game's degraded overall performance late in the game? It often dropped down to 25% of the initial one, on my side. Personally, I would not be able to play X4 in VR at 20-30 fps, with occasional FPS drops/instability throughout the whole gameplay. But that's just my gaming rig and my opinion/personal preferences. Idk, perhaps the late performance got a huge boost in 7.5, I am yet to discover it.

[vvvvvvvv]

It would just be a huge screen strapped to the player's head, no depth effect.

He is discussing setup where you get depth effect. That's what Reshade is for. A shader hack splits image into left/right view, and sends it to virtual desktop. There will be depth.

but what you gonna do with the game's degraded overall performance late in the game? It often dropped down to 25% of the initial one, on my side. Personally, I would not be able to play X4 in VR at 20-30 fps,

It was discussed before and it isn't a problem.

Modern headsets deal with low FPS just fine, especially virtual desktop. You' have issues on original Rift, because it was pretty much a display with no processor onboard.

No Man's Sky can drop to 10 FPS in worst case scenario. Elite and X-Plane can fall to 30-40. With 10 fps things become hard to control, and you' want to get away from there, but the only problem in this situation is slightly sluggish movement an runaway black borer when you turn your head. And that's it. No other issues, no discomfort. Because it is like VR movie theater. The frame remains in direction you looked at, while your rotational tracking is always working at max framerate.

Like I said, a lot of things changed since Rebirth VR. This is one of them.

[MarStrMind]

Try it. I played it like that and it is more immersive than you think.

I tried it once, a couple of years ago. As a long-time TrackIR/VR user, I was not thrilled with the effect. It would just be a huge screen strapped to the player's head, no depth effect. [...]

Just one reminder for all VR enthusiasts - it might be technologically viable option, but what you gonna do with the game's degraded overall performance late in the game?

The SuperDepth3D effect of ReShade provides the depth.
There is no degraded performance.

[NightIntruder]

He is discussing setup where you get depth effect. That's what Reshade is for. A shader hack splits image into left/right view, and sends it to virtual desktop. There will be depth.

Yeah, I didn't get the depth. The reshade hack itself caused the inital problems with my system last Christmas. Immediately after, I got my system disk malfunction. Maybe I did something wrong or had specific system settings that brought the troubles to me. Or, it was unrelated, or got my disk break due to its age or malware. No idea, tbh. If you had great experience, good for you. I had not and will never ever touch the reshade again, just to be on a safe side.

It was discussed before and it isn't a problem.

It is a problem to me. I said what could make the game unplayable for myself with my rig and my VR headset. Even drop down to 60 fps in IL2 makes it uncomfortable for me, physically and mentally. If I play many hours (which is often the case) it becomes just meh every time it happens and makes me to drop off my headset. I am just guessing regarding X4. Maybe on the map - yes, 20-30fps might be OK-ish? But during intense, crowded fight in the space? My Rift S treats me bad whenever a game is loosing 20-30 fps, this is what I experience. And I experienced FPS stable drop in X4 down to 20 in its late gameplays. I play games to have pleasure, not to torture myself with them If you have VR headset that can make up for lacking 50-70 frames, again - good for you, don't you mind to share what VR gear you use? Or you actually said, that FOR YOU the inconveniences you mentioned do not matter?

[vvvvvvvv]

don't you mind to share what VR gear you use? Or you actually said, that FOR YOU the inconveniences you mentioned do not matter?

I have Quest 2 and Pico 4. You need a system that streams video from PC onto "distant sphere" where the last frame remains in direction you saw it. Virtual Desktop does that. Pico 4 does this as well. Any sort of "reprojection" nonsense should be disabled, because it'll result in triangles flickering in case of a single frame drop.

With this setup you can comfortably play on any sort of low framerate, all the way down to 10 fps, where contorlling your hands becomes difficult, as they lag. Normal framerate for X-plane 12 is in ballpark 40, and NMS doesn't reach 75 fps either. So it is not that "for me those inconvenience do not matter" it is that for me they do not exist. Desorientation happens when last image is glued to your face when you move your head. This does not happen in the new headset. Even in the game freezes, the frame remains where you saw it.

My Rift S treats me bad

That's because you're using Rift S. As far as I know Rift is a Display on your head. As far as I know, losing one frame is a big deal, because previous one will remain glued to your face. That'll send your senses out of whack quickly.

New headsets starting with Oculus 2 (ones that have android OS in them), stream video from your PC into your helmet and ALWAYS do rotational tracking at max framerate. That means the last frame doesn't remain glued to your face. If framerate drops there's NO discomfort, because it is like movie theater. You don't puke your guts out in VR movie theater, right? Because your head is tracked at max framerate. Same deal. So there really is no discomfort. You can easily play at 30 fps. That is why people are asking for the VR version, because a LOT of things that were problem on Rift S are no longer a concern. I really played for hundreds of hours with below max framerate, there really isn't a problem.

You also need a different version of virtual desktop to o the stuff escribed before --> One that is is installed into headset. This version takes left/right images from your monitor, an projects them into helmet. You get different picture from each eye, and you get depth. I think PC Virtual Desktop can't do that, and you need one you install into Quest or Pico.

[NightIntruder]

The SuperDepth3D effect of ReShade provides the depth.
There is no degraded performance.

I had not the depth the first time I tried to use reshade a couple of years ago. I just got a big flat screen attached to mouse, not my head. I guess, something went wrong, maybe it was me. Next time I tried, a few months ago, I got problems the moment I switched it on, and immediately unrecoverable system crash happened. Thank you for the suggestion, but... no Even, if the crash's not related, I choose not risking anymore.

Late game's degraded performance is X4 related, very little to do with graphic settings or VR use. Factions expansionism slows down not only my computer but the whole universe
But to be on the fair side, how come that you use two additional applications with processes and memory (OpenXR, Virtual Dekstop) plus special reshade to do things ordinary X4 does not do, and you didn't notice loss of performance? I mean, maybe those apps are so tiny they don't affect the game, idk, just wonder. If you'd have YT video with comparison, I'd gladly watch it.

[vvvvvvvv]

you didn't notice loss of performance?

Because the game does same amount of work as when it renders frame normally and because modern headsets are less sensitive to framerate loss.

Reshade makes it render both views for both eyes onto the same screen an Virtual Desktop sends image from the screen to separate eye. This will result in slightly blurry picture (because fullhd is smaller than combine dresolution), but there will be depth. This can be also bypassed with virtual display driver.

[MarStrMind]

Well my rig (see sig) is already in the higher tier. However OpenTrack is a very lightweight application, it only takes the SteamVR input and translates that into head tracking data via an in-memory IPC. ReShade on top is only the shader splitting the image with fast algorithms, at the end of the pipeline. The game engine itself does not know that this is happening, hence my remark of no degraded performance.

This combo together runs well and has extremely little noticeable impact. Yes - SteamVR needs to run in the background so it can receive the movement from the headset, but this is also something to ignore, provided you have SteamVR Home turned off.

[Deki_279]

Using a combo of ReShade (SuperDepth3D shader), OpenTrack and VirtualDesktop, you can already achieve a mostly enjoyable VR experience, provided you can render the normal game at 1440p or higher.

This is not a VR experience, it is just a stereoscopic effect on a flat screen. There is no VR "effect" or immersion there.

Try it. I played it like that and it is more immersive than you think.

I tried this option at the beginning of the 24th, along with a similar implementation in Cyberpunk 2077. I didn't like it at all and don't even see the point in discussing it in the VR thread. I might as well put on stereoscopic glasses and stick to the monitor.
And there's not much difference between just playing through a Virtual Desktop stretched to the entire field of view and adding depth through reshade.

[MarStrMind]

This is not a VR experience, it is just a stereoscopic effect on a flat screen. There is no VR "effect" or immersion there.

Try it. I played it like that and it is more immersive than you think.

I tried this option at the beginning of the 24th, along with a similar implementation in Cyberpunk 2077. I didn't like it at all and don't even see the point in discussing it in the VR thread. I might as well put on stereoscopic glasses and stick to the monitor.
And there's not much difference between just playing through a Virtual Desktop stretched to the entire field of view and adding depth through reshade.

I think our experience mileages vary by a great degree.

[NightIntruder]

At very low fps there's no difference to me whether I'll have a frame glued to my face or a slide show. It doesn't matter if I could turn my head fast enough to see darkness instead of X4 crawling light years behind my head All of those are gonna be mentally exhaustive in VR, as you cannot hit Alt+F4 fast enough
I wonder... why are you voting for native VR implementation in X4 so fiercely? According to your own words, there's workaround already available - fast, reliable, no performance loss, gives you everything you've been asking for in X4. Allegedly, full VR experience minus hand controllers. What's the point of this discussion from your perspectives, then?

[vvvvvvvv]

At very low fps there's no difference to me whether I'll have a frame glued to my face or a slide show. It doesn't matter if I could turn my head fast enough to see darkness instead of X4 crawling light years behind my head All of those are gonna be mentally exhaustive in VR, as you cannot hit Alt+F4 fast enough

You need to experience it. Your description does not match how it works and feels in practice. The problem with glued frame is because it throws off your balance HARD. Modern headset work in a way that prevents this from happening.

I wonder... why are you voting for native VR implementation in X4 so fiercely? According to your own words, there's workaround already available - fast, reliable

Because workaround is much is still worse than a native VR would be and much harder to setup. It does not quite reach Elite level (which is what I'd want. Head tracking + gamepad support). Also because flying in VR is amazing. Because it is the game on the market that is closest to the experience I'd want in VR.

[MarStrMind]

Because workaround is much is still worse than a native VR would be and much harder to setup. It does not quite reach Elite level (which is what I'd want. Head tracking + gamepad support). [...]

To be fair, any HOTAS / Gamepad and KB/M combo works fine in the proposed approach. Source: myself having played that way.

[vvvvvvvv]

Because workaround is much is still worse than a native VR would be and much harder to setup. It does not quite reach Elite level (which is what I'd want. Head tracking + gamepad support). [...]

To be fair, any HOTAS / Gamepad and KB/M combo works fine in the proposed approach. Source: myself having played that way.

I would prefer on-foot part to also work. Last time I tested this (I did not have OpenTrack at the time), it also made the text unreadable. Though I'll probably try it again.

[vvvvvvvv]

Using a combo of ReShade (SuperDepth3D shader), OpenTrack and VirtualDesktop, you can already achieve a mostly enjoyable VR experience, provided you can render the normal game at 1440p or higher.

This is not a VR experience, it is just a stereoscopic effect on a flat screen. There is no VR "effect" or immersion there.

Try it. I played it like that and it is more immersive than you think.

Well, I tried this again, and it only took a hour to setup. So.

Maybe I'm missing something, but this:

https://youtube.com/shorts/4QM4WGnsLQM

Does not seem to be what I'm looking for.

It is a pale shadow of what a normal, most basic implementation could've been.

Compare RebirthVR:
https://youtu.be/sVOeUcovPUo

Here's Elite:
https://youtube.com/shorts/yVpAz8oBGC8

The point is, in VR I should be able to freely turn my head and look to the side. This is done often during dogfights, combat, to aim at laning pad, and so on. Hacked TrackIR information from SR allows the game track my head tilt and shift but that is not enough. Because when I turn to the side there's an edge of the screen and area beyond it.

[MarStrMind]

As I was thinking - unfortunately this setup is wrong. That is not VirtualDesktop, that is the internal SteamVR desktop view. In addition you do not have ReShade with the SuperDepth3D shader.

Of course the experience in your screenshot will not offer any VR-like experience.

I cannot speak for whether or not you have OpenTrack enabled / running.

// Edit: maybe a video on how to set it up might be a good idea. I will think about it.

[vvvvvvvv]

As I was thinking - unfortunately this setup is wrong. That is not VirtualDesktop, that is the internal SteamVR desktop view. In addition you do not have ReShade with the SuperDepth3D shader.

Of course the experience in your screenshot will not offer any VR-like experience.

I cannot speak for whether or not you have OpenTrack enabled / running.

// Edit: maybe a video on how to set it up might be a good idea. I will think about it.

You're confusing me with another poster you spoke with.

This is not internal desktop. That's SBS view, which is provied by Desktop+ (as indicated by row of buttons under the screen), with SuperDepth3d enabled and it has depth. The root of the problem is that I'm not seeing a way to look right and have the image move. It only tracks head position and tilt. Additionally the only virtual desktop I have is Android one, and it does not seem to offer an option to setup SBS view. So I get a floating window where depth is weakly pronounced. It doesn't help that right now SteamVR removed the option to disable VR theater, so X4 streams additional view into steamvr, hidden behind the depth screen. Obviously I can make the screen bigger, but this won't make a difference if I can't control my look direction even when seated.

[MarStrMind]

As I was thinking - unfortunately this setup is wrong. That is not VirtualDesktop, that is the internal SteamVR desktop view. In addition you do not have ReShade with the SuperDepth3D shader.

Of course the experience in your screenshot will not offer any VR-like experience.

I cannot speak for whether or not you have OpenTrack enabled / running.

// Edit: maybe a video on how to set it up might be a good idea. I will think about it.

You're confusing me with another poster you spoke with.

This is not internal desktop. That's SBS view, which is provied by Desktop+ (as indicated by row of buttons under the screen), with SuperDepth3d enabled and it has depth. The root of the problem is that I'm not seeing a way to look right and have the image move. It only tracks head position and tilt. Additionally the only virtual desktop I have is Android one, and it does not seem to offer an option to setup SBS view. So I get a floating window where depth is weakly pronounced. It doesn't help that right now SteamVR removed the option to disable VR theater, so X4 streams additional view into steamvr, hidden behind the depth screen. Obviously I can make the screen bigger, but this won't make a difference if I can't control my look direction even when seated.

Desktop+ is not VirtualDesktop. You either need that on your VR headset as native app (which it is on my Pico 4) or the PC version of it, and run it. In both versions you can enable the SBS view. Also, you will need to enable the headlock option so that the screen is "glued" in front of you, and disable the movement delay (otherwise you will get dizzy).

Plus, you absolutely need OpenTrack to track the headset movements.

If you have ReShade and the SuperDepth3D shader, it needs to be enabled for SBS to work properly (of course, the depth shader needs proper configuration in ReShade, like IPD and cursor).

[vvvvvvvv]

Desktop+ is not VirtualDesktop. You either need that on your VR headset as native app (which it is on my Pico 4)

I have native version, and could not find an option to enable SBS view. I'm also on Pico 4.

As I said before, setup in the screenhot (and the video) has SuperDepth3D, SBS AND Open Track enabled. There's depth visible through the desktop. And it tracks head tilt. But that's still not it.

[MarStrMind]

Desktop+ is not VirtualDesktop. You either need that on your VR headset as native app (which it is on my Pico 4)

I have native version, and could not find an option to enable SBS view. I'm also on Pico 4.

As I said before, setup in the screenhot (and the video) has SuperDepth3D, SBS AND Open Track enabled. There's depth visible through the desktop. And it tracks head tilt. But that's still not it.

In Pico 4, in VD, turn off all environments (just the Empty Void). If you point above the screen (I think - could also be below, can't remember right now), you will find all options (like SBS etc).

In OpenTrack, you need to choose SteamVR as Input and UDP Over Network as output, and set 127.0.0.1 as the target address. When starting the tracking, you may be asked to allow the connection. Then in X4, you need to enable the OpenTrack connection under Controls.

https://i.imgur.com/IQfdG9k.png

EDIT:

Here are the options for SBS and Head Lock in Pico 4 Virtual Desktop: https://imgur.com/a/1Lfnc28