Everthing is to easy

[phrozen1]

Ah come on. I played this game for 1222 hours. It's a good game but it could be great.
And it could be more challenging for those who want it to be more challenging.

All those excuses why it needs to be easy for everyone. I don't get it.

There is nothing quite like X4, so no, i can't go play something else.

But ok, I give up discussing this topic.

[decifer]

You just treat green sectors as your faction's sectors. Also, in the global orders menu you **always** whitelist your faction(even for the "Only me" rules), and it sorta works.

Then it's not harder, just less convenient. NPCs still don't know how to defend their shipyard—players can still travel drive straight to it, destroy the building module, wait for the builder to arrive for repair, destroy the builder, and the faction is basically dead after that.

Don't travel drive straight to the shipyard and destroy the build module and builders then. Take every sector one by one. Exploiting the inabilities of the AI is a choice.

[vvvvvvvv]

All those excuses why it needs to be easy for everyone. I don't get it.

Well, I got blown up in a Hyperion today when I tried to cap SCA Behemoth E in Lock's legacy and miscalculated braking path. Behemoth greeted me with L rocket turrets.

Basically, difficulty isn't delivered to you on a platter. There's also the Crisis which you could try.

Also, try starting from scratch. New save, custom budgeted, 0 money, empty HQ, and Kyd with Mk1 equipment as a main ship. It is very easy to build a mega empire sitting on an old save forget stuff that happens early on. With 1200 hours of course it is gonna be easy - you know most tricks by this point. Gameplay isn't infinite, at some point you'll run out of things to do. Many games last much less time than this.

[flywlyx]

Don't travel drive straight to the shipyard and destroy the build module and builders then. Take every sector one by one. Exploiting the inabilities of the AI is a choice.

Your argument essentially suggests that players should blindfold themselves just because the AI lacks environmental awareness, as if observing the environment is exploiting the AI’s inability.

I see no reason why the AI shouldn’t defend its own shipyard. This discussion is about what capabilities the AI should have, not about how players should handicap themselves.

[LameFox]

To be fair I spent the last few days sniping shipyards in an Erlking to see if I could condense Xenon forces at the start of a new game (turns out, not very usefully) and they *did* send ships to try to kill me. However their response time is slow, I think in part because the fleets themselves were very slow, meandering out of travel drive for a long way for no clear reason. It's easy to see why destroyer groups from HOP and ANT often defeat these, given their low range and low speed combined.

[surferx]

I don't think making up artificial limits or goals is a valid argument at all. That's the opposite of immersion.

Some self-imposed rules can add to immersion. For example, play as an arrogant Split who thinks 'all Split gear is best' & consequently will only use Split ships & fits them exclusively with Split equipment (including their frankly abysmal shields). Alternatively play as a penny pinching Teladi who considers mk1 gear to be perfectly adequate for their ships & refuses to pay a single credit more than the bare minimum when outfitting their ships. Such rules make the game noticeably harder, add to immersion & enhance the replayability of the game - each new game can focus exclusively on a single faction's stuff & have a different rule set to keep things interesting. It's how I prefer to play anyway.

I use the same self-imposed rules re. equipment, for All my ships. Every ship I own uses it's faction's equipment. It really does add to immersion. Parts shouldn't be easily interchangeable without major revisions to the ship's structure.

[adeine]

Even, this game has been easier than the previous versions because in the past, XENs were too powerful.

This game is sandbox game, so you can do what you want. But, this is not only for you. This game is for all worldwide players.

So, you can do what you want to do. Getting over this limit is, I think, impossible.

Just because it's a sandbox game does not mean it needs to be safe and/or boring. It certainly shouldn't mean the one truly hostile faction has to go extinct without any input from the player in the early game. The 'endgame crisis' was implemented to ostensibly give people a use for their fleets, but it did not really achieve that either.

The only time XEN were sort of powerful was around early 3.0, and that was largely down to low attention combat being broken and defence stations not working.

[jlehtone]

Even, this game has been easier than the previous versions because in the past, XENs were too powerful.

I have never seen "too powerful" Xenon. Not in any versions of X4 that I have played, nor in any previous game. However, I'm probably not the least skilled player out there.

I have seen a thread from blind player. About possibilities to play when you cannot see. Now that is a "blindfold", and not even voluntary one. At current game, that ought to be doable. At your desired "danger zone", perhaps not so?

This discussion is about what capabilities the AI should have, not about how players should handicap themselves.

Aren't there two parts on this coin? One is what can be done in the current game. The other is what the devs could do to change the game.

[vvvvvvvv]

Just because it's a sandbox game does not mean it needs to be safe and/or boring. It certainly shouldn't

The amount of stuff you can do in the game is finite, because a game is effectively an algorithm/puzzle, and at some point you'll inevitably find your way around it. That's the point where it will become boring. For x4 that mark is hundreds of hours. It is not possible to play forever always discovering something new or challenging. The complexity is also finite.

It is not "safe or boring", the more likely thing is that you've found the most efficient strategies and a way around anything that was challenging. At this point the only thing to do is to take a break from it. Even if AI is made better you'll still, inevitably defeat it, find its weaknesses and then you'll be bored again.

The alternative to the break is self-imposed challenges and mods.

[adeine]

Just because it's a sandbox game does not mean it needs to be safe and/or boring. It certainly shouldn't

The amount of stuff you can do in the game is finite, because a game is effectively an algorithm/puzzle, and at some point you'll inevitably find your way around it. That's the point where it will become boring. For x4 that mark is hundreds of hours. It is not possible to play forever always discovering something new or challenging. The complexity is also finite.

It is not "safe or boring", the more likely thing is that you've found the most efficient strategies and a way around anything that was challenging.

Yes, most things are inherently finite. But presumably there is a reason the Xenon were put into the game as an antagonist. And I think the game would be more enjoyable if this particular puzzle/algorithm didn't solve itself without any input.

It's an issue when sitting on your hands and doing nothing is an effective strategy to achieve Xenon extinction.

[flywlyx]

Aren't there two parts on this coin? One is what can be done in the current game. The other is what the devs could do to change the game.

What I see here is a focus on telling players what they shouldn't do because it supposedly exploits the AI. A more constructive discussion would be about improving the AI rather than restricting players.

[vvvvvvvv]

Yes, most things are inherently finite. But presumably there is a reason the Xenon were put into the game as an antagonist.

I don't think there's a real antagonist in the game, it is a sandbox. People chose their battles.

Regarding "puzzle solving itself" I've not actually saw this happen in my recent games. Xenon lose many sectors but remain very strong in tharka and keep pumping out more and more ships into hatikvah. The 7.50 update added two "barrier stations" in Hatikvah and Family Zhin, amusingly at exact same spots where I was building them. In my recent fresh save, Xenon wiped Hatikvah defense platform out and it is not being rebuilt. There's a non-stop party going on in the sector, and I managed to get rep to about +17 by killing xenon. So they aren't going to die in this save, as far as I can tell and ARG/HAT need periodic player help in order not to fall. It is day two in the gamed.

Having said that, I'm definitely feeling the "way around the puzzle" problem, because at this point I can disable a K in an S ship (especially experimental shuttle, which is very strong) by stripping the engine and turrets. Had a bit too much practice in Rebirth VR.

Regarding Xenon a possible way to make them a problem is to introduce a new ship. I do not recall Xenon Q from X3 well, but there could be some sort of "Xenon X". Make it comparable to asgard, give it 50 L laser turrets with 15 kilometer range. Good luck. I believe Khaak Ravager is a weaker version of this. For purposes of sanity make this thing spawn only when Xenons are badly losing. After all those are supposed to be evolving robots, so when threat escalates, they should escalate as well.

[charlie1024]

What I see here is a focus on telling players what they shouldn't do because it supposedly exploits the AI. A more constructive discussion would be about improving the AI rather than restricting players.

Is this really matter of AI? Some things are different, but fundamental AI will maybe same for each factions. Any reason XENs have too bad AI especially?

Of course I know some parts of AI have difference of each factions(also, the player).

Actually, what I really think of this situation is 'There's no a magical solution for this problem'.

I sometimes want to see 500 vs 500 grand fights(because I can produce of that large fleets). Well, maybe enjoyable, but not maybe enjoyable. Why it would be enjoyable or not, you'll know as well.

As far as I remember, the core motivation of the X series has been 'make your own space within the war-driven economy' rather than 'game should be able to push the player and the computer'.

In the game each factions also need resources, with only infinite amount of credits. From that, the only way to improve XEN rush is just rebalancing the XEN ship production costs. It may help?

[jlehtone]

Is this really matter of AI? Some things are different, but fundamental AI will maybe same for each factions. Any reason XENs have too bad AI especially?

They don't. Well, players did cry when their ships with long range guns did loiter into range of short range guns. Now they do less of that -- a AI change -- and NPC uses the same. XEN does not have long range guns and the AI has not got update on how to counter ballistic missiles with a knife.


Re-read the OP. Yes, it did mention XEN, but that was far from the only point. There is a separate current thread about XEN being "weak".


Yes, there was note about how difficult the combat is (not). That has AI in it, as you always face AI-controlled opponents. I have tried some flight simulators and there the AI tends to "know the moves". They hit, I don't. They dodge, I don't. Naturally, there isn't a Galaxy for the AI to take care of, unlike X4.

If the NPC were aces, then your entry to the game -- as new, not knowing better, you'd have Elite for it is a Fighter -- could be very short. I've heard of "Dark Souls" offering that kind of "entertainment". Maybe you like it, but if getting killed before you earn your first credit is a norm, then incentive to become a billionaire can elude most players.


An objective and problem in X games is that if you do get credits, then you become rich. We like it, because it is less possible in real life. We don't like it, because once you clear the first steps, the rest is practically automatic. Exponential growth. There is no reason to build big. We do, because we can. In games that have "opponent", you have to or you die. When you were at literal sandbox, did your mother stop the play if you did not build your castles at rate that she deemed necessary?

There have been discussions about "salary/tax/maintenance/corruption/inefficiency" to add to the game to slow down your growth. That should naturally be progressive. Very progressive. Real life billionaires love taxes, don't they?
Would "IRS" be the "opponent" that grows with you?

[charlie1024]

Is this really matter of AI? Some things are different, but fundamental AI will maybe same for each factions. Any reason XENs have too bad AI especially?

They don't. Well, players did cry when their ships with long range guns did loiter into range of short range guns. Now they do less of that -- a AI change -- and NPC uses the same. XEN does not have long range guns and the AI has not got update on how to counter ballistic missiles with a knife.


Re-read the OP. Yes, it did mention XEN, but that was far from the only point. There is a separate current thread about XEN being "weak".


Yes, there was note about how difficult the combat is (not). That has AI in it, as you always face AI-controlled opponents. I have tried some flight simulators and there the AI tends to "know the moves". They hit, I don't. They dodge, I don't. Naturally, there isn't a Galaxy for the AI to take care of, unlike X4.

If the NPC were aces, then your entry to the game -- as new, not knowing better, you'd have Elite for it is a Fighter -- could be very short. I've heard of "Dark Souls" offering that kind of "entertainment". Maybe you like it, but if getting killed before you earn your first credit is a norm, then incentive to become a billionaire can elude most players.


An objective and problem in X games is that if you do get credits, then you become rich. We like it, because it is less possible in real life. We don't like it, because once you clear the first steps, the rest is practically automatic. Exponential growth. There is no reason to build big. We do, because we can. In games that have "opponent", you have to or you die. When you were at literal sandbox, did your mother stop the play if you did not build your castles at rate that she deemed necessary?

There have been discussions about "salary/tax/maintenance/corruption/inefficiency" to add to the game to slow down your growth. That should naturally be progressive. Very progressive. Real life billionaires love taxes, don't they?
Would "IRS" be the "opponent" that grows with you?

Hm, yeah, I also have thought about some constraint to the players: especially salary and tax.
(Even, in X3, there was salary to the station manager)

Even, even though I just only said for XENs, just buffing AIs by percentage(some 4X games use this way as well) with production will help to make a challenging game.

I think current X4 is somehow easier compared with previous X series: I really work hard to do diplomacy things and earn credits in X3FL(of course, this is from community so not regarded as official).

The only issue will be previous savefiles will be affected though.

[Sorasil]

Being a sandbox game, i would love some toggles when starting a new game to affect the conditions of the universe and its factions more. For example a few sliders to bump up the Xenon threat and/or pirates giving them an edge earlier.
Sure it could potentially break the game with xenon wiping out factions etc depending on how the cards fall, but that’s fine as long as we as the player have the option to control that at game start. Then we knew what we got ourselves into.

Facing an overwhelmingly powerful enemy is frustrating to some but a nice challenge to others. Especially for the re-playability factor. Play on normal/vanilla to learn the game. Play on harder difficulties of your choice to find unique challenges in a more hostile universe.

One could argue that this can be achieved with mods today. But this should really be part of the core package.

[flywlyx]

Is this really matter of AI? Some things are different, but fundamental AI will maybe same for each factions. Any reason XENs have too bad AI especially?

Of course I know some parts of AI have difference of each factions(also, the player).

Actually, what I really think of this situation is 'There's no a magical solution for this problem'.

I sometimes want to see 500 vs 500 grand fights(because I can produce of that large fleets). Well, maybe enjoyable, but not maybe enjoyable. Why it would be enjoyable or not, you'll know as well.

As far as I remember, the core motivation of the X series has been 'make your own space within the war-driven economy' rather than 'game should be able to push the player and the computer'.

In the game each factions also need resources, with only infinite amount of credits. From that, the only way to improve XEN rush is just rebalancing the XEN ship production costs. It may help?

AI is simply a broad term referring to the internal logic governing NPC behavior, meaning nearly every issue related to NPCs is influenced by AI.
In general, AI lacks situational awareness—whether at the faction level or the unit level, it fails to recognize threats to its faction and respond accordingly.
As a result, if Xenon is stronger, other factions collapse; if other factions are stronger, Xenon is wiped out.
I’d say this is the most crucial missing feature in X4. Hopefully, they’ll address it in the diplomatic update.

[vvvvvvvv]

I've heard of "Dark Souls" offering that kind of "entertainment". Maybe you like it,

Dark Souls is a lot of fun, but it is a different experience. In Dark Souls you're immortal. When you "die" you're set back and are punished with loss of progress. Dark Souls games that were done well are good in a sense that they're tough but fair. You can be weak, but you can skill it. The core mechanics in dark souls is that you gain resources that empower you, but you can only use those at checkpoints and only when you have certain amount, and if you die before checkpoint, you lose everything you failed to apply. So there's a loop where you're presented with an obstacle you repeatedly try to clear.

This doesn't translate well into X4. In the first place, the original Dark Souls was a break away from constant hand-holding in big titles, and a breath of fresh air and NES difficulty.

Regarding difficulty, since my new playthrough, complex situations do emerge. Memorable ones:

* Lone Hyperion vs SCA Behemoth in Locks legacy. Missile spam --> dead engines --> Dead Hyperion (and reload).
* XPerimental vs Khaak swarm of 6-10+ in Sanctum Verge. Hull down to 25%, one of the cases where to boost away to regenerate.

It is possible to up the difficulty in the game as is by using larger swarms, more missiles, more lasers. With more time investment, xenon could get a new ship with long range lasers, Another possibility is "long range weapons + radar invisibility mod".

Also the difficulty, overall, increased. Previously combat was much worse. The game could use occasional ace pilots which can dismantle a K in S ship, though. But a random teladi trader shouldn't be a god of combat.

[Scoob]

Perhaps it's time for OP to take a dive into a modded game? My last modded game was based on the Reemergence Map - it's not the regular sector layout and adds 80+ additional sectors. Stuff to explore / discover again. Reemergence is based on the VRO balance, so faster projectile speeds (accuracy), larger engagement ranges, MORE weapons, MORE missile types, rebalances to shields and ship stats. No more forcing an SCA Minotaur Raider to bail two minutes into a fresh save in a poorly-equipped Elite Vanguard. They are truly different classes of ships in VRO.

To support this modded game, I also added various other mods to change AI behaviour, tweak war / conflict balance, enhance missions and other things. One of these sub-mods is called "Evolution" and relates to the Xenon. You can make them significantly stronger as a faction, and have them "Evolve" over time. This Evolution sees their ships gaining mods - like the player can research and apply - making individual Xenon ships much more challenging.

I basically turned everything up to 11 in my game, I didn't expect it to last very long. Three days (IIRC) in, and 80% of the map - much larger than vanilla map remember - was Xenon-controlled. There were several pockets of resistance. TER were just about holding the line, though Getsu Fune was gone and Sol was under active invasion. ARG were gone, entirely. As were ANT, TEL, HOP and PAR. Gone. Dead. Nothing left. ZYA were holding on to six sectors IIRC. I started in ZYA space so they were "my" faction so to speak and it was my efforts that kept them alive. FRF were largely dead, protected from further incursion by a Plot-protected station the Xenon could not destroy - thus could not invade subsequent sectors. I left "discovering" BOR until quite late in the game, so there were largely untouched, BUT invasions started shortly after the gates were all open.

I originally thought this would be a quick game, and it came close to being exactly that a number of times. However, I was able to keep the Xenon out of those remaining ZYA sectors. The Xenon aggression had an interesting turn too, when they started invading one of the ZYA sectors. I had few assets there BUT, it was the ONLY remaining source of certain raw resources, needed for my own economy (I produced everything) so I HAD to hold them off to keep my (and ZYA) miners safe. That was fun.

At one point, ZYA lost both their Shipyard and Wharf, so *I* was their sole provider of ships. They wouldn't have lasted long not being able to field any more military assets. I supported their rebuilding - albeit in a different location - of a Shipyard and Wharf, while my own Equipment Dock allowed them to service their already deployed ships.

This really was a cataclysmic game. I often like a "safe" game, defend certain choke points (standard universe map) make friends with everyone I can, and go nuts building infrastructure to support my own Station building and eventual Shipyards, Wharfs and Equipment Docks. To do all that while also on the clock - Xenon getting closer by the hour - was a whole new level of challenge. I loved it!

The funny thing was building your classic "nothing can touch this" over the top Defence Platform, and have it come close to defeat by literal waves of modded Xenon Fleets coming through the gate. My attrition rate was... astonishing, but I had the Economy to keep replenishing things - something that can be automated in v7.5 of course thanks to automatic ship replacement.

When v7.5 Beta dropped, I was just starting the big push-back vs. the Xenon. I was mass building fleets to engage them. They vastly out-matched me on a per-ship basis - they'd fully "evolved" by that time, so their ships all had multiple top-tier mods - but I'd REALLY ramped up my ship build capacity, with an economy to back it up. I was fielding a new Battleship (mods remember) every few minutes and churning out literally hundreds of Fighters. Damn, this was a FUN game. However, I did stop playing to help test things for the beta.

As of today, I just downloaded updated version of the various mods for that game. So, I will be creating a NEW instance of Remergence for v7.5. The RE devs have managed to keep things save compatible (legends) so I will be able to continue that cataclysmic Xenon-apocalypse game. Fun.

Note: this mod collection I use isn't quite so deadly usually, you have to enabled Xenon Evolution and turn settings up, add more fleets etc. etc. So, you can start easier and turn things up to be more challenging later.

Perhaps this sort of game might be something you'd like OP? I loved it, more than I expected.

[flywlyx]

Perhaps it's time for OP to take a dive into a modded game? My last modded game was based on the Reemergence Map - it's not the regular sector layout and adds 80+ additional sectors. Stuff to explore / discover again. Reemergence is based on the VRO balance, so faster projectile speeds (accuracy), larger engagement ranges, MORE weapons, MORE missile types, rebalances to shields and ship stats. No more forcing an SCA Minotaur Raider to bail two minutes into a fresh save in a poorly-equipped Elite Vanguard. They are truly different classes of ships in VRO.

I would also include Faction Enhancer and DeadAir, but the capabilities mods can provide are still limited without updates on the engine side.
Unless the engine allows factions to identify incoming threats and respond accordingly, modders can only do so much.