Devs please read! | An Old Dog that doesn't like the new tricks

[taztaz502]

The whole mini DLC of a single OP ship and a quest is just milking it now.

If this is the future of egosoft i'll be giving future content and X5 a miss.

I'm going to quote myself on this, but you can mentally replace "cash grab" with "milking it".

Nobody is forcing you to buy anything, but the "cash grab" accusation is, frankly, a bit unreasonable.

We have improved and added to the base X4 game for over 6 years and plan to continue doing so. These additions and improvements are free for everyone who has the base game, but as developers we still have bills to pay. The various expansions, including the smaller ones such as the Hyperion Pack, are how we balance this.

If you like what you see in an expansion and buy it because of that then that's great, and if you want to buy it to help support the ongoing development of the free base game features then that's fine too. If you don't want to buy it then that's also OK, but please don't accuse us of shady practices!

That's why people will vote with their wallet, like someone said it's about the price of a pint at his local pub.

But at the same time you're charging half the price for a single ship than you did for an entire expansion in my opinion that is a shady practice and milking your customers.

As for monetizing the base games development and continued development and future projects like X5, is something not just all development studios face but every business on the planet. Maybe take a leaf out of hello games book instead of EA and Ubisofts.

[CBJ]

I've moved a few posts over to this thread so that the people in the original thread can carry on discussing ideas for expansions.

If that's your opinion, taztaz502, then by all means vote with your wallet. However, I will reiterate that we are not trying to "milk" anyone, and are just looking for the best way to pay the bills while delivering features and content for players. A smaller expansion like this allows us to focus more development time on the free base game update, which everyone gets, and less on the expansion which people can choose to buy or not buy as they see fit. I really don't see how that is "shady".

[NightIntruder]

So you don’t actually know—you’re just hopping it will happen.
If what you're hoping for turns out to be true, it would make sense as an argument. But for now, I’d say OP is worried that what you’re claiming won’t actually happen.

Neither you, me, nor rudi_pioneer nor dreamora know what will happen. Are we to stop discussing because of that?

I see it this way - I am afraid of losing my beloved game. I am afraid that the studio, by choosing the wrong path, will simply disappoint me with its moral stance, which will force me to leave and abandon my current favorite toy. It might be common view on the matter and Devs may know the risk associated with it. This is why they asked here for our opinions about whether we don't mind some mini-DLCs or we do in fact.
Personally, I don't mind. Although, IMHO we have enough ships but I understand that releasing paid ships is the fastest and most effective method that the studio could choose to raise funds for further work on developing the game for players. Thus, new features and possibilities in the game for players through mostly redundant ships DLCs sells. Does it ring a bell? I know it does, but one swallow doesn't make a summer.

I am just gonna pay more attention to what's delivered versus what was announced, from now on. The changelog for free 7.5 update is very impressive, thus it made me quite optimistic when it comes to the studio's roadplan.

[flywlyx]

Neither you, me, nor rudi_pioneer nor dreamora know what will happen. Are we to stop discussing because of that?

I see it this way - I am afraid of losing my beloved game. I am afraid that the studio, by choosing the wrong path, will simply disappoint me with its moral stance, which will force me to leave and abandon my current favorite toy. It might be common view on the matter and Devs may know the risk associated with it. This is why they asked here for our opinions about whether we don't mind some mini-DLCs or we do in fact.
Personally, I don't mind. Although, IMHO we have enough ships but I understand that releasing paid ships is the fastest and most effective method that the studio could choose to raise funds for further work on developing the game for players. Thus, new features and possibilities in the game for players through mostly redundant ships DLCs sells. Does it ring a bell? I know it does, but one swallow doesn't make a summer.

I am just gonna pay more attention to what's delivered versus what was announced, from now on. The changelog for free 7.5 update is very impressive, thus it made me quite optimistic when it comes to the studio's roadplan.

That's why you should stick to stating facts that have already happened rather than claiming something will happen before it does.

People tend to convince themselves of things out of fear—this is likely one of the biggest reasons for democracy's failures. You may think you're just expressing good intentions, but in reality, you're pretending something is happening when it isn't. The truth is, this is a smaller update with a smaller DLC, and trying to cover that fact with wishful thinking is pointless.

[NightIntruder]

The truth is, this is a smaller update with a smaller DLC, and trying to cover that fact with wishful thinking is pointless.

Yes, DLC is small, it's tiny one could even say. That's why they called it mini-DLC. However, what's the smaller update, and in comparison to what? You mean 7.5 update is small comparing to the previous one?
For me it's one of the largest, as it's one of the most important update ever. Can you explain why do you think otherwise? What's your point, what's your message to players?

PS. Nevermind, disregard my last questions please. I found the answer, here:

This is the way.
Adding more ships for both players and NPCs will significantly expand the game's potential.

Surely, we have different opinion what expands the game's potential. But those are just opinions, yours and mine, nothing more. There is no "objective truth" to it, nor "sticking to stating facts"

[adeine]

That's why you should stick to stating facts that have already happened rather than claiming something will happen before it does.

People tend to convince themselves of things out of fear—this is likely one of the biggest reasons for democracy's failures. You may think you're just expressing good intentions, but in reality, you're pretending something is happening when it isn't. The truth is, this is a smaller update with a smaller DLC, and trying to cover that fact with wishful thinking is pointless.

It's not really just fear.

From an objective player perspective, X4 has been a series of new lows when it comes to what Egosoft have delivered for your money:

1. Game launches with most factions missing (a first)
2. SV, CoH, KE are paid expansions adding major factions back in (a first)
3. ToA is priced the same but does not deliver a fraction of what would previously be considered a full expansion (a first)
4. One ship with a mini quest for half the price of SV, CoH, KE (a first)

In contrast, X3 launched as a complete game, and saw two similarly priced stand-alone expansions that thoroughly transformed the game.

It's fair to say times are different, and the increased fidelity/complexity of game dev makes this is a necessity both in terms of expense and time taken developing the game. But you can't say there isn't a trajectory here that may be worrying to people.

[jlehtone]

In contrast, X3 launched as a complete game, and saw two similarly priced stand-alone expansions that thoroughly transformed the game.

Which X3? X3R was one game. X3TC was a different game.
X3AP is yet another game, but it requires you to own X3TC as it (re)uses assets.
X3FL is yet another game, but it requires you to own X3AP (and hence X3TC) as it (re)uses assets.

Yes, X3TC launched as a complete game, but did X3AP and X3FL "thoroughly transform" it?

Buying X3AP and X3FL does not affect your X3TC playthrough.
Buying a DLC for X4 adds a sector of more to your X4 playthrough.

That is a different approach. Both have their advantages (and downsides).

[linolafett]

It's not really just fear.

From an objective player perspective, X4 has been a series of new lows when it comes to what Egosoft have delivered for your money:

1. Game launches with most factions missing (a first)
2. SV, CoH, KE are paid expansions adding major factions back in (a first)
3. ToA is priced the same but does not deliver a fraction of what would previously be considered a full expansion (a first)
4. One ship with a mini quest for half the price of SV, CoH, KE (a first)

In contrast, X3 launched as a complete game, and saw two similarly priced stand-alone expansions that thoroughly transformed the game.

It's fair to say times are different, and the increased fidelity/complexity of game dev makes this is a necessity both in terms of expense and time taken developing the game. But you can't say there isn't a trajectory here that may be worrying to people.

Just to take some wind out of your sails with your "a first" points:
X Rebirth launched with Argon, Xenon and a few Khaak ships.
Boron Split and Paranid never made a proper appearance in XR.
Terrans were a former shell and represented via the canterran factions.
The Teladi outpost added this race into the game.

[adeine]

In contrast, X3 launched as a complete game, and saw two similarly priced stand-alone expansions that thoroughly transformed the game.

Which X3? X3R was one game. X3TC was a different game.
X3AP is yet another game, but it requires you to own X3TC as it (re)uses assets.
X3FL is yet another game, but it requires you to own X3AP (and hence X3TC) as it (re)uses assets.

Yes, X3TC launched as a complete game, but did X3AP and X3FL "thoroughly transform" it?

Buying X3AP and X3FL does not affect your X3TC playthrough.
Buying a DLC for X4 adds a sector of more to your X4 playthrough.

That is a different approach. Both have their advantages (and downsides).

That's what stand-alone expansion means.

Not counting X3:FL since it's community made.

[The Q]

It's not really just fear.

From an objective player perspective, X4 has been a series of new lows when it comes to what Egosoft have delivered for your money:

1. Game launches with most factions missing (a first)
2. SV, CoH, KE are paid expansions adding major factions back in (a first)
3. ToA is priced the same but does not deliver a fraction of what would previously be considered a full expansion (a first)
4. One ship with a mini quest for half the price of SV, CoH, KE (a first)

In contrast, X3 launched as a complete game, and saw two similarly priced stand-alone expansions that thoroughly transformed the game.

Your post is really just confirming what flywlyx said. What you consider a first and a seemingly negative and objective perspective is based on your own bias towards the game. I can pick an arbitrary amount of seemingly negative "firsts" from X3 and compare them with X4 as well.

1. X3 was a buggy game at release. (a first)
2. X3 removed established features from a game series, e.g. cockpits (a first)
3. Despite remodelling the ships and stations, X3 still reused the character videos and voices from previous games (a first)
4. X3 saw four separated releases, three of them paid with vastly different price and feature ratio (a first)

In contrast, X4 saw the greatest and longest support in the form of free updates, both in the amount of fixes and the amount of new features any single X game has ever received.

[Raptor34]

It's not really just fear.

From an objective player perspective, X4 has been a series of new lows when it comes to what Egosoft have delivered for your money:

1. Game launches with most factions missing (a first)
2. SV, CoH, KE are paid expansions adding major factions back in (a first)
3. ToA is priced the same but does not deliver a fraction of what would previously be considered a full expansion (a first)
4. One ship with a mini quest for half the price of SV, CoH, KE (a first)

In contrast, X3 launched as a complete game, and saw two similarly priced stand-alone expansions that thoroughly transformed the game.

It's fair to say times are different, and the increased fidelity/complexity of game dev makes this is a necessity both in terms of expense and time taken developing the game. But you can't say there isn't a trajectory here that may be worrying to people.

Just to take some wind out of your sails with your "a first" points:
X Rebirth launched with Argon, Xenon and a few Khaak ships.
Boron Split and Paranid never made a proper appearance in XR.
Terrans were a former shell and represented via the canterran factions.
The Teladi outpost added this race into the game.

XR also only had one ship too.
And reminder that X3 was also a new low of not having any cockpits for ships...
No station interiors...
Actually did we have the remote control feature that X2 had in X3? Btw for the devs, now that we have full ship interiors, giving us back that thing where you can remote control another ship like a drone would be great. Imagine being in the safety of your carrier and still being able to go out there and dogfight in a fighter. Like sure we have teleportation and auto ejecting, doesn't mean it isn't annoying.

[adeine]

Just to take some wind out of your sails with your "a first" points:
X Rebirth launched with Argon, Xenon and a few Khaak ships.
Boron Split and Paranid never made a proper appearance in XR.
Terrans were a former shell and represented via the canterran factions.
The Teladi outpost added this race into the game.

First in a mainline series X game, if you want to be specific. I wouldn't compare Rebirth to other X games.

Your post is really just confirming what flywlyx said. What you consider a first and a seemingly negative and objective perspective is based on your own bias towards the game. I can pick an arbitrary amount of seemingly negative "firsts" from X3 and compare them with X4 as well.

1. X3 was a buggy game at release. (a first)
2. X3 removed established features from a game series, e.g. cockpits (a first)
3. Despite remodelling the ships and stations, X3 still reused the character videos and voices from previous games (a first)
4. X3 saw four separated releases, three of them paid with vastly different price and feature ratio (a first)

In contrast, X4 saw the greatest and longest support in the form of free updates, both in the amount of fixes and the amount of new features any single X game has ever received.

X2 had its share of bugs, too. Anyway, negatively comparing X3 to X2 (and there are fair points to be made here) would only add to the perception of new lows being set.

Either way, my own bias to the game has been fairly positive. I think the way X4 has been monetised has been pretty fair, all things considered.

[flywlyx]

Yes, DLC is small, it's tiny one could even say. That's why they called it mini-DLC. However, what's the smaller update, and in comparison to what? You mean 7.5 update is small comparing to the previous one?
For me it's one of the largest, as it's one of the most important update ever.

Let's compare the new features introduced in 7.5 versus 7.0.
For 7.5

New Feature: New flight model with corresponding rebalancing of ships.
New Feature: Boost now has its own energy pool.
New Feature: Lost ship replacement option.
New Feature: Behaviour Inspection Mode.
New Feature: Radar station module.
New Feature: Improved Gravidar display.
New Feature: Velocity indicator.
New Feature: Support for FSR3 and DLSS.

For 7.0

New Feature: Reimagined Teladi and Argon capital ships.
New Feature: Redesigned Xenon PE and SE ships.
New Feature: Flyable Xenon ships (selected ships only).
New Feature: Historic Terraformer ships.
New Feature: Observation Deck module for stations.
New Feature: Additional sectors and landmarks.
New Feature: Race-specific managers' offices.
New Feature: Improved AI.
New Feature: Reworked, improved and expanded tutorials.
New Feature: Late-game crisis for advanced players.
New Feature: Customisable radial menu for quick access to actions.
New Feature: Extended input mapping options.
New Feature: Enhanced external camera system.
New Feature: Visual Enhancement Goggles.
New Feature: Improved explosion effects.
New Feature: FOV slider.
New Feature: TAA support.
New Feature: Enhanced shadows.
New Feature: New accessibility options.

Based on your previous claims

i don't think we necessarily need more ships, but to be able to do more with them (can't wait for diplomacy! exploration sounds neat too)

Why does 7.5 provide more things to do with your ships?
7.0 not only introduced more ships to fly but also added more enemies, missions, tutorials, and even new ways to observe your ships.
In my view, the end-game crisis alone offers more gameplay hours than all the features of 7.5 and its DLC combined.

7.5 is a good quality-of-life update, but it doesn’t come close to adding as many ways to engage with ships as 7.0 did—not even half as much.

[NightIntruder]

Oh, apparently you didn't understand my point The 7.5 is the most important FOR ME because it tackled the flight model change which is something I'm happy to see, finally.
I value both variety and number of features much higher than a variety and number of ships in this space sandbox. For instance, I couldn't imagine just flying and shooting in bazillion of different ships across the galaxy, but not being able to do anything more withing the X4 game. So, in this perspective - yes, 7.5 is less prominent than 7.0 due to the number of new features implemented. For me, however, is the biggest one in terms of my personal preferences - more simulation and immersion that come from FM improvements, among other things.
And that was the whole point I wanted you to look at through answering my (disregarded) questions, ie. who decides how a player should play this sandbox, and who decides what's the most important to a player in their gameplay style? No one, but that particular player themselves, right? IMHO, we won't convince each other because we have different priorities/game style/expectations.

[jlehtone]

If X4 would follow semantic versioning, then it should be obvious that 6.x to 7.0 is bigger leap than any 7.x to 7.y.
Does it?

Anyway, a long list not necessarily more, if each item is tiny (compared to couple huge items).

[Chips]

That's why you should stick to stating facts that have already happened rather than claiming something will happen before it does.

People tend to convince themselves of things out of fear—this is likely one of the biggest reasons for democracy's failures. You may think you're just expressing good intentions, but in reality, you're pretending something is happening when it isn't. The truth is, this is a smaller update with a smaller DLC, and trying to cover that fact with wishful thinking is pointless.

It's not really just fear.

From an objective player perspective, X4 has been a series of new lows when it comes to what Egosoft have delivered for your money:

1. Game launches with most factions missing (a first)
2. SV, CoH, KE are paid expansions adding major factions back in (a first)
3. ToA is priced the same but does not deliver a fraction of what would previously be considered a full expansion (a first)
4. One ship with a mini quest for half the price of SV, CoH, KE (a first)

In contrast, X3 launched as a complete game, and saw two similarly priced stand-alone expansions that thoroughly transformed the game.

It's fair to say times are different, and the increased fidelity/complexity of game dev makes this is a necessity both in terms of expense and time taken developing the game. But you can't say there isn't a trajectory here that may be worrying to people.

I can see some people's concerns as... well, actually, not sure. People worry this is a path of endless expansions? Was this the concern when X3 released and had subsequent releases of the expansions. I mean new games? Well, my opinion on that... controversially

X3 was basically X2 universe with an update (imo, *ducks*). As were all the expansions/flavours (I was one person who sat and said "but each iteration is essentially the *same* game - there's no real change and therefore after playing the exact same thing for 10 years I'm bored".

Rebirth was a huge risk and sadly didn't pay off as it was too radical, but it did have some great concepts. But they pivoted to X4. I'm absolutely loving X4 and I think it's surpassed X2 now in my enjoyment of the game. I'd *love* more refinements, but I'm happy.

So I don't think the portrayal of X3 and it's expansions or standalones is quite a "transformational" as you think. No tutorial needed, it was the same game.

I'm relaxed as I trust Egosoft with the game I enjoy. Not everything I want to see is in X4 game, or ever likely to be in the game, and they continue to update the core parts of the game to improve it for all -- while releasing expansions that build upon the game to introduce yet more that you'd hope for (the main factions etc). The people doing that work *do* need to get paid...

To me X4 was such a big step, they'd run out of dev money before they got to the point of releasing your "full game". I mean, would it have been at Kingdom's End maybe? That'd have been 5 years later was it? Paying 5 years more wage while having a core gamers base complaining over Rebirth for 5 years? There'd have been no income and probably no player base left, while the game would have cost £80+ and likely been bought by far fewer as "omg expensive cash grabbers!".

They did what they could. I'm enjoying it, I'm happy, I look forward to the future. I think people's concerns are "valid" in the sense it's *your* worries, but I think they're unreasonably / unfounded so far when thought about *rationally*.

I chose not to buy Timelines - think it's the first (game) thing I've not bought since 2003. But I also didn't see it's publication/release/price as an affront to a game I enjoy playing.

[adeine]

I can see some people's concerns as... well, actually, not sure. People worry this is a path of endless expansions? Was this the concern when X3 released and had subsequent releases of the expansions. I mean new games? Well, my opinion on that... controversially

It would have been a concern if X3 had started selling individual ships as DLC, whatever the reasoning.

[flywlyx]

And that was the whole point I wanted you to look at through answering my (disregarded) questions, ie. who decides how a player should play this sandbox, and who decides what's the most important to a player in their gameplay style? No one, but that particular player themselves, right? IMHO, we won't convince each other because we have different priorities/game style/expectations.

And this is exactly why you could concentrate on your initial claim:

Likely, especially if we think of content as base game features and systems... i don't think we necessarily need more ships, but to be able to do more with them (can't wait for diplomacy! exploration sounds neat too)

When you claim Egosoft delivers the same amount of content, it should be based on how much content is actually available to players, not just your personal priorities. Just because someone prefers Hyperion doesn’t mean it suddenly counts as more than ten L ships.

[ezra-r]

...
You are at a crossroads, Are you going to milk pennies from us and have high turnover fans, or are you going to choose loyal fans willing to stick with you for life because you treat us right.

Please make the right decision.
...

I know what you mean and I hate big corp greed tactics... but still, that you say is quite unfair towards Egosoft.

Just compare it with any other gaming company, which one supports their game for as long and as much as Egosoft does? Counted with the fingers of a hand if any others.

We are on patch version 7.50 and this game was originally released 7 years ago.

[NightIntruder]

And this is exactly why you could concentrate on your initial claim:

Likely, especially if we think of content as base game features and systems... i don't think we necessarily need more ships, but to be able to do more with them (can't wait for diplomacy! exploration sounds neat too)

It was never my claim. It was one of rudi_pioneer. You've confused the two of us once again, apparently

When you claim Egosoft delivers the same amount of content, it should be based on how much content is actually available to players, not just your personal priorities. Just because someone prefers Hyperion doesn’t mean it suddenly counts as more than ten L ships.

Again, it wasn't my point. It was yours ie. evaluation based on amount of content delivered (and preferably amount of ships, right? because you talk a lot about them, compare them , etc.). Mind you, this is actually your personal priorities. Mine bases on immersion and quality of simulation. I said "bigger" and "one of the most important" based only on those two factors. I fully understand your perspective, mine is neither better nor worse than yours. It's just a different.
Hope it makes sense to you, now