Devs please read! | An Old Dog that doesn't like the new tricks

[Baconnaise]

I'm a little surprised someone wants the skunk. The sheer disdain and disgust of being stuck to the ship was a constant quibble. The odd thing was your ship didn't change as you progressed. The loadout on weapons would show up but no external changes. Very odd when it's all you have as a player. I will say it was cool being able to change cockpit themes. I liked that construction one personally.

My main question was "where do those 50 marines actually stay". Regarding cockpit, I primarily played it in VR, and unfortunately in VR "blue moon" layout is unbeatable, because that's the only one where you see all indicators at once. Construction cockpit was cool in flatscreen, but with depth perception added it becomes quite cramped. Those cool pipes pass very close to pilot's head.

It's a good question. I never tried VR at all really. It makes me wish I dabbled in VR to see the various cockpits.

during the XR days the 'stationwalking' was overwhemingly hated

Those days were 12 years ago and have passed. Basically you're appealing to what people would've wanted back then. But we do not live back then, but we live now. Back then X4 did not exist, it does exist now.

And I just stopped playing because of it. I absolutely hate stationwalking when it's forced, like for some quests or faction representive stuff. I have 20h in the game, at some point I just ALT+F4 and uninstalled it. Just because every game has it now does not mean everyone who likes space games likes it.

I recall Ego implemented a mod from someone into Rebirth (Euclid?). It allowed you to talk to stations and services remotely. The implementation of the mod was fine overall but not as good and involved more steps or busy work for the player. The station walking was a chore at times. I really liked the remote stay in your ship and access services mod. The other pain in the butt was finding specialists. I don't know how much the game improved or didn't as I'm certain I was done with a couple or few hundred hours into it before any DLC. It was quite rough from launch heh.

[CBJ]

The whole mini DLC of a single OP ship and a quest is just milking it now.

If this is the future of egosoft i'll be giving future content and X5 a miss.

I'm going to quote myself on this, but you can mentally replace "cash grab" with "milking it".

Nobody is forcing you to buy anything, but the "cash grab" accusation is, frankly, a bit unreasonable.

We have improved and added to the base X4 game for over 6 years and plan to continue doing so. These additions and improvements are free for everyone who has the base game, but as developers we still have bills to pay. The various expansions, including the smaller ones such as the Hyperion Pack, are how we balance this.

If you like what you see in an expansion and buy it because of that then that's great, and if you want to buy it to help support the ongoing development of the free base game features then that's fine too. If you don't want to buy it then that's also OK, but please don't accuse us of shady practices!

[Alan Phipps]

The XR and XR VR reminiscences are all interesting but rather stray from the OP's topic of mini-DLCs and Egosoft perhaps going down an uncomfortable new approach with them.

My penny's worth as an older and long-term X2 to X4 player is that as long as such DLCs don't affect the base gameplay and enjoyment, then I am generally happy to miss out on cosmetic stuff that might come with any mini-DLC that I didn't want to purchase because it didn't interest me. I have many other games with 'fluff' DLCs available that I don't buy. There may be an argument that such DLCs take dev team effort away from the main game, but then they might also help to pay the bills and employ (more) staff for longer too. They probably also help balance the employed dev skill sets and provide ongoing experience and skills progression.

[vkolosov]

I don't see what is the issue here. Egosoft dev team delivers great products, working without any major publishers, and they need to cover their expenses and make some profit along the way. This is how things work, and how products are created in modern economy. I would be glad to support them by buying any mini DLC they produce, for a price that is like what — several cups of coffee? Happy to back the devs any time.

Otherwise, what is the point? Egosoft won't "betray" their customers only if they just charge you once and release all updates and DLCs for free? Such strategy only works somewhere in a parallel universe.

[adeine]

I don't see what is the issue here. Egosoft dev team delivers great products, working without any major publishers, and they need to cover their expenses and make some profit along the way. This is how things work, and how products are created in modern economy. I would be glad to support them by buying any mini DLC they produce, for a price that is like what — several cups of coffee? Happy to back the devs any time.

Otherwise, what is the point? Egosoft won't "betray" their customers only if they just charge you once and release all updates and DLCs for free? Such strategy only works somewhere in a parallel universe.

If you can draw in new sales with the release of expansions, it works quite well. Have a look at No Man's Sky.

[Buzz2005]

I don't see what is the issue here. Egosoft dev team delivers great products, working without any major publishers, and they need to cover their expenses and make some profit along the way. This is how things work, and how products are created in modern economy. I would be glad to support them by buying any mini DLC they produce, for a price that is like what — several cups of coffee? Happy to back the devs any time.

Otherwise, what is the point? Egosoft won't "betray" their customers only if they just charge you once and release all updates and DLCs for free? Such strategy only works somewhere in a parallel universe.

If you can draw in new sales with the release of expansions, it works quite well. Have a look at No Man's Sky.

if ego got that massive initial boost of sales/money then we could talk about NMS type of development

[vvvvvvvv]

I recall Ego implemented a mod from someone into Rebirth (Euclid?). It allowed you to talk to stations and services remotely. The implementation of the mod was fine overall but not as good and involved more steps or busy work for the player. The station walking was a chore at times. I really liked the remote stay in your ship and access services mod. The other pain in the butt was finding specialists. I don't know how much the game improved or didn't as I'm certain I was done with a couple or few hundred hours into it before any DLC. It was quite rough from launch heh.

At the time X Rebirth got converted into Rebirth VR, this change was apparently already implemented. You didn't HAVE to land on the station and could hire people remotely while flying close. Missions were available for the whole sector, though some of them were hidden and had to be discovered. Mk5 engine mission was one of those. I believe I mentioned this, but interestingly, Rebirth was the experience where you would WANT to walk on stations. Because for VR such immersive moments matter. But the content was cut and apparently it was cut so thoroughly, that the changes were hardcoded and couldn't be reversed. Which was an extremely unfortunate decision.

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[LetMeIn11]

I was ready to pay for an improved radar DLC, but Egosoft delivers a new radar for free. Now I'm still going to pay for the radar, but additionally I receive a new ship as a gift. Profitss...

[chew-ie]

I don't see what is the issue here. Egosoft dev team delivers great products, working without any major publishers, and they need to cover their expenses and make some profit along the way. This is how things work, and how products are created in modern economy. I would be glad to support them by buying any mini DLC they produce, for a price that is like what — several cups of coffee? Happy to back the devs any time.

Otherwise, what is the point? Egosoft won't "betray" their customers only if they just charge you once and release all updates and DLCs for free? Such strategy only works somewhere in a parallel universe.

If you can draw in new sales with the release of expansions, it works quite well. Have a look at No Man's Sky.

if ego got that massive initial boost of sales/money then we could talk about NMS type of development

...and because people seem to forget (or never knew it to begin with) - we are talking about ~40+ million in the release year alone (2016).

@source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Man's_Sky

[Buzz2005]

I do believe with that kind of a nice fund a similar development ( hello games and egosoft are very similar in size at least at that point of release), maybe x5 instead of upgrading x4, but one can only imagine, Bernd looks to me like he would be 50/50 on happiness, more money more pressure more chaos etc...

[adeine]

If you can draw in new sales with the release of expansions, it works quite well. Have a look at No Man's Sky.

if ego got that massive initial boost of sales/money then we could talk about NMS type of development

...and because people seem to forget (or never knew it to begin with) - we are talking about ~40+ million in the release year alone (2016).

@source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Man's_Sky

Yes, but you also have to remember that the launch was so rough the game actually saw worse numbers in terms of player retention during its first couple years than X4 is seeing now. The point was that whenever a new NMS expansion rolls around, it usually does quite well in sales (frequently in Steam top sellers) which is significant as the price has remained pretty much flat.

X4 is a bit more niche, and if I had to guess the same sort of organic growth/influx of new players is harder to achieve for a single player game.

Egosoft are trying to do something similar with the periodic re-releases of the game (such as the Community of Planets edition containing previous DLC and 'the new thing'), except that previous copies do not receive these updates.

[aurli]

The whole mini DLC of a single OP ship and a quest is just milking it now.

If this is the future of egosoft i'll be giving future content and X5 a miss.

I'm going to quote myself on this, but you can mentally replace "cash grab" with "milking it".

Nobody is forcing you to buy anything, but the "cash grab" accusation is, frankly, a bit unreasonable.

We have improved and added to the base X4 game for over 6 years and plan to continue doing so. These additions and improvements are free for everyone who has the base game, but as developers we still have bills to pay. The various expansions, including the smaller ones such as the Hyperion Pack, are how we balance this.

If you like what you see in an expansion and buy it because of that then that's great, and if you want to buy it to help support the ongoing development of the free base game features then that's fine too. If you don't want to buy it then that's also OK, but please don't accuse us of shady practices!

Here is the problem.

No company can release a product and wait years before releasing another product.

They need to make additions/attachments/accessories (or DLCs in this case) over time to get some money coming in.
Even the giants, like Microsoft, they either ask you to pay monthly / yearly for MS Office, or they release a new version every 3-4 years so they get enough revenue to cover costs / make a profit.

So, we can ask Egosoft to release a new X game every 3,4 years (with maybe not enough time to fully get into all the possibilities in the game), make DLCs every once a while (so that they got time to improve the currently released X game), or change to a subscription format.

I thinkk am fine with the current system. Nobody forces you to buy all the DLCs.

I myself dont really like the timelines DLC much (I prefer everything to be in the sandbox), but I still bought it, as a show of support to egosoft at the least.

I will get the hyperion DLC as well. If I dont like the ship, etc, I will just not load the DLC.

They deserve a few bucks for all the free updates at the least (for my perspective).

[NightIntruder]

I started playing Egosoft's games with X: Beyond Frontier, so also long term fan. I don't mind paid mini- or regular-DLC. Basically, I bought all DLCs just to be able to play X4 modded (a mod's compatibility) and to support the studio. All those features or interaction mechanics available in the base game (or simply in the game's engine) provide greater freedom in modding creativity, so for me personally is mostly desirable. They also allow Egosoft to expand this game later, even if the initial use of some engine capabilities leaves you unsatisfied. One of which is, well, walking on stations or ships. I am pretty sure, continues ship's interior (which is walkable) was first released for X4 in one of the mod led by Egosoft's developer. Now, we'll have it as a part of mini-DLC which may please all interested. There are ideas that may be expanded upon walking mechanics solely, e.g. fully walkable small colonies/outposts on asteroids with artificial gravity. You can easily build a tree of meaningful activities in the game, based only on walking mechanics. Of course, if it's done right and had proven to be working for players

[rudi_pioneer]

I was ready to pay for an improved radar DLC, but Egosoft delivers a new radar for free. Now I'm still going to pay for the radar, but additionally I receive a new ship as a gift. Profitss...

Really well said!

Egosoft could have charged us for 7.5 update, but we got it for free. Of course paying for DLC to support Egosoft is right move.

[LameFox]

Well that's the thing with the regular updates, you essentially cannot charge for them. That would have some very weird implications for a game, like do new players on the core game now get a severely outdated, buggy experience? Or do you support multiple versions of the game, making extra work for yourself?

There's a reason games with long term support often go down the big free update + paid DLC path.

[rudi_pioneer]

I made this graphic to illustrate why I think this is opposite of Egosoft nickel and diming, and is in fact very honorable way to get financial support and also deliver on the game

https://www.reddit.com/r/X4Foundations/ ... aying_for/

[flywlyx]

I made this graphic to illustrate why I think this is opposite of Egosoft nickel and diming, and is in fact very honorable way to get financial support and also deliver on the game

https://www.reddit.com/r/X4Foundations/ ... aying_for/

Last year, with Timeline, players received 4 XL, 3 L, 4 M, and 4 S new ships through both paid and free content. Are you suggesting they will deliver the same amount of content this year?

[rudi_pioneer]

I made this graphic to illustrate why I think this is opposite of Egosoft nickel and diming, and is in fact very honorable way to get financial support and also deliver on the game

https://www.reddit.com/r/X4Foundations/ ... aying_for/

Last year, with Timeline, players received 4 XL, 3 L, 4 M, and 4 S new ships through both paid and free content. Are you suggesting they will deliver the same amount of content this year?

Likely, especially if we think of content as base game features and systems... i don't think we necessarily need more ships, but to be able to do more with them (can't wait for diplomacy! exploration sounds neat too)

[Kozagar]

I respect Dreamora's point of view. As for myself, I first entered the x universe with X2 The Threat. That game grabbed me an wouldn't let me go, it was just that good. I bought the x3 series, I bought rebirth and enjoyed them all. At first I was disappointed with Foundations but that was because I didn't really understand it. Now I have many hours of foundations under my belt. Timelines was not really the type of expansion I wanted but it did add some awesomeness to the sandbox game so it has a thumbs up from me also. And now the Hyperion is back and I have some very fond memories of that ship. It seems just about every game has microtransactions of some type now. Whether it is right or wrong it is here, but Egosoft releases a free update to the base game and offers a little extra if you choose to purchase it. I am happy to support a developer who is actively developing their game. I love space games and X universe is my favorite. I use my imagination to create different scenarios to play out, right now I have a Terran cadet start in which I have formed a coalition of Terran, Argon and Teladi forces to tackle the Xenon problem ( Argon and Teladi destroyers generously donated by Scale Plate Pact, those guys are so nice). And yes the game can be somewhat slow paced at times but that suits me just fine on days when I get home from work and just want to relax, tooling about building factories and whatnot. I am really looking forward to seeing how the diplomacy development works out. Keep up the good work Egosoft I love your game

[flywlyx]

Likely, especially if we think of content as base game features and systems... i don't think we necessarily need more ships, but to be able to do more with them (can't wait for diplomacy! exploration sounds neat too)

So you don’t actually know—you’re just hopping it will happen.
If what you're hoping for turns out to be true, it would make sense as an argument. But for now, I’d say OP is worried that what you’re claiming won’t actually happen.