[obsolete] Let's talk (multi)SECTORS

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Realspace
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[obsolete] Let's talk (multi)SECTORS

Post by Realspace »

I have to start a new topic, can't find any help.

I am trying to modify the SUBSECTORS, for instance Nopileos' Fortune II and VI.

I wish to make the SUPERHIGHWAY have a longer trail, like from planet to the moon (I changed the second copy planet with a moon).

I change the position in CLUSTERS.XML

The two subsectors are called Cluster_04_Sector001 and Cluster_04_Sector002 if I got it correctly (Sector 04 is Nopileos' Fortune)

I tried changing the x axis like this

Code: Select all

<diff>
	<!-- Nopileos' Fortune -->
	<replace sel="//macro[@name='Cluster_04_macro']/connections/connection[@name='Cluster_04_Sector002_connection']/offset">
	
        <offset>
          <position x="91046580.8125" y="0" z="-920353148" />
        </offset>
    	</replace>

</diff>  

ETC ETC.
"9" at start is the added value, very large for testing.
Changed in every entry

It works...but you end out of the cluster in the void. The position of the (sub)sector is not updated in the map, it is moved thou. Zones inside the sector are moved, but they end out or at the border of it.

My aim would be to increase the space inside the cluster but not enlarging the subsectors only making them more distant from eachother so the superhw makes a longer "scenic" route
Hope it makes sense :gruebel:

Any help?
Last edited by Realspace on Wed, 13. Apr 22, 12:24, edited 4 times in total.
DeadAirRT
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Re: Let's talk SUBSECTORS :D

Post by DeadAirRT »

There's no such thing as a subsector. Every time you bolded made it even worse for me lol.

As to your question, are you trying to move it on the map? That's not going to happen afaik since the map will display it inside the cluster no matter where it is located in the cluster. The reason your ship is showing near the void is because you are that far from the center of the cluster but you are still in the cluster itself.

Why not just alter the path the superhighway takes if you are trying to make a scenic route?
Realspace
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Re: Let's talk SUBSECTORS :D

Post by Realspace »

Hi!
Not trying to move it out of the map oc. Trying to make the superhw make a longer route in relation to the cluster's elements, planets and moons.
So I get what you say, one simply moves the superhighway because sectors have no border, right?
Sectors will "become" automatically larger if you put elements far away, like hw's enter/exit points
My aim is to revamp the vanilla map, by working on elements that make you perceive the vastness of space without simply enlarging sectors :wink:

I use your expertise for another issue :D
I edited the galaxy.xml to make clusters more apart, to recreate a sort of separated galaxy's regions.
But when I move clusters having multiple sectors, sectors move too but end mismatched, not perfectly set inside the moved clusters

EDIT: if I can't move sectors inside the cluster to make them more far apart to each other, what's the point of having more sectors?
I don't want them larger (I moved hw but it does not increase the distance among sectors, only put their exit point far away).
Isn't it better to have only one large sector with a very long hw to connect two distant points (say a planet to the close moon)?
Can we make superhighways end inside the same starting sectors?
DeadAirRT
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Re: Let's talk SUBSECTORS :D

Post by DeadAirRT »

The main reason why i say editing the actual visible map is not the ideal route because most of the functions are locked in lua and thus more difficult to mod.

I personally hate the multi sector clusters. You could separate the sectors into different clusters but i don't know if anyone got superhighways working for inter-cluster travel (metame might have, he's on the discord fairly often). Superhighways can definitely be used for travel in the same sector though.
Realspace
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Re: Let's talk SUBSECTORS :D

Post by Realspace »

Ok, got it. At the end the best solution seems to be one cluster/one sector, as it was in Rebirth. One super highway to connect planets.
In Rebirth distances were too small, like one entire solar system in a single sector or some thousands km. This is un-immersive too.
But a planet and its local moons is doable, even if not perfectly at scale.

Btw in Earth/Moon cluster this (what I had in mind) has been properly done, connecting two sectors, I can't understand how to do it for other clusters too.
The travel from earth to moon is much longer (order of magnitude 200x) so this means that the two sectors are more far away, still inside the cluster.
There, the two sectors are not bigger, only the distance between them is. :gruebel:
How can we recreate the same model in other clusters /Main planet + 1-2 local moons?
Realspace
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Re: Let's talk (multi)SECTORS :D

Post by Realspace »

Ok got it working, it was easy, it's just that I had not worked on maps before.
But:
1) I am still struggling to understand if coordinates are absolute (relative to cluster) or relative to the single sector added, which itself has its coordinates inside the cluster if it is a 002 or 003 sector
2) Seems I can't add a third sector (in vanilla map) where it lacks, like in Nopileous Fort. While adding a custom new cluster+new sectors is easy, adding it to an existing cluster is giving me issues.
Vanilla macros already have the option included for all sector_00*, so I simply added the connection 003 in cluster.xml but it does not show in the map :gruebel:

Code: Select all

<diff>
<!-- Nopileos' Fortune  -->
	<replace sel="//macro[@name='Cluster_04_macro']/connections">
	
<connections>
      <connection name="Cluster_04_Sector001_connection" ref="sectors">
        <macro ref="Cluster_04_Sector001_macro" connection="cluster" />
      </connection>
	  
      <connection name="Cluster_04_Sector002_connection" ref="sectors">
        <offset>
          <position x="0" y="0" z="-160000000" />
        </offset>
        <macro ref="Cluster_04_Sector002_macro" connection="cluster" />
      </connection>
	  
<!-- added sector -->	  
 <connection name="Cluster_04_Sector003_connection" ref="sectors">
        <offset>
          <position x="80000000" y="0" z="-80000000" />
        </offset>
        <macro ref="Cluster_04_Sector003_macro" connection="cluster" />
      </connection>
	  	  ETC ETC
	      </connections>
	  </replace>
</diff>  
	  
It should at least appear as empty sector or not? What is missing?

BTW There is a weird issue in multi-sectors, that is a kid of game's bug, it happens in vanilla too:

In clusters having multiple sectors, the skybox (that should remain in the far distance), becomes bigger (closer) in one of the secondary sectors (the 002 or 003).

You can test it by yourself in vanilla Earth/Moon cluster. The background comes closer in The Moon so the stars look bigger.
Also visible in Nopileous Fortune VI, look at the skybox in the direction of negative X-axis, it is visibly magnified. This happens in vanilla too

Very weird. I tried changing the material's position and max enlargement, with no success.

Seems the skybox model has been done too small. Or not properly done for multi-sectors. You don't see this happening in small single sector/cluster
DeadAirRT
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Re: Let's talk (multi)SECTORS :D

Post by DeadAirRT »

Realspace wrote: Tue, 22. Mar 22, 13:17 Ok got it working, it was easy, it's just that I had not worked on maps before.
But:
1) I am still struggling to understand if coordinates are absolute (relative to cluster) or relative to the single sector added, which itself has its coordinates inside the cluster if it is a 002 or 003 sector
2) Seems I can't add a third sector (in vanilla map) where it lacks, like in Nopileous Fort. While adding a custom new cluster+new sectors is easy, adding it to an existing cluster is giving me issues.
Vanilla macros already have the option included for all sector_00*, so I simply added the connection 003 in cluster.xml but it does not show in the map :gruebel:

Code: Select all

<diff>
<!-- Nopileos' Fortune  -->
	<replace sel="//macro[@name='Cluster_04_macro']/connections">
	
<connections>
      <connection name="Cluster_04_Sector001_connection" ref="sectors">
        <macro ref="Cluster_04_Sector001_macro" connection="cluster" />
      </connection>
	  
      <connection name="Cluster_04_Sector002_connection" ref="sectors">
        <offset>
          <position x="0" y="0" z="-160000000" />
        </offset>
        <macro ref="Cluster_04_Sector002_macro" connection="cluster" />
      </connection>
	  
<!-- added sector -->	  
 <connection name="Cluster_04_Sector003_connection" ref="sectors">
        <offset>
          <position x="80000000" y="0" z="-80000000" />
        </offset>
        <macro ref="Cluster_04_Sector003_macro" connection="cluster" />
      </connection>
	  	  ETC ETC
	      </connections>
	  </replace>
</diff>  
	  
It should at least appear as empty sector or not? What is missing?

BTW There is a weird issue in multi-sectors, that is a kid of game's bug, it happens in vanilla too:

In clusters having multiple sectors, the skybox (that should remain in the far distance), becomes bigger (closer) in one of the secondary sectors (the 002 or 003).

You can test it by yourself in vanilla Earth/Moon cluster. The background comes closer in The Moon so the stars look bigger.
Also visible in Nopileous Fortune VI, look at the skybox in the direction of negative X-axis, it is visibly magnified. This happens in vanilla too

Very weird. I tried changing the material's position and max enlargement, with no success.

Seems the skybox model has been done too small. Or not properly done for multi-sectors. You don't see this happening in small single sector/cluster
So coordinates are all relative to their parent. A coordinate for a gate is relative to the center of the zone for instance. Sector coordinate would be relative to the cluster that contains it.

As to your example of adding a sector, best bet is to run debug. It most likely is something simple that is messed up which causes the game to ignore the entire thing but i can't say for certain as I'm on phone.

If you run debug and find nothing, i should be able to find the time to help you figure it out.
Realspace
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Re: Let's talk (multi)SECTORS :D

Post by Realspace »

Thank you man, I run the debug and found nothing (related to this mod) except the missing signature (?)

Code: Select all

[=ERROR=] 0.00 File I/O: Could not find file '.\extensions\rsge\index\macros.xml.sig'
The rest was about other mods that don't concern the map etc

My issue is that I don't know how to consider the added sector (003): as a custom sector or patched vanilla?
Technically it is a vanilla patch, I add the sector_003 in a existing cluster (cluster_04) that currently has only two.

My idea was to revamp the map by adding multiple sector in almost all (so the multi-sectors finally have a sense to exist) but mostly for scenic pourpose. I.e adding superhighways from/to the close moons or from low orbit (orbital planets) to the external space. Working on the "illusion" of space more than simply enlarging sectors. To give the planets a sense

But I'd like to find a procedure that works, copy and paste, I can't spend a week for a single cluster..considering I've to add the zones to each :rant:

BTW I made a similar mod for X3 FL (you see in sig.), it took me some time but despite the limits of X3 it worked. The "illusion" of space is very immersive with that mod
DeadAirRT
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Re: Let's talk (multi)SECTORS :D

Post by DeadAirRT »

Realspace wrote: Tue, 22. Mar 22, 17:56 Thank you man, I run the debug and found nothing (related to this mod) except the missing signature (?)

Code: Select all

[=ERROR=] 0.00 File I/O: Could not find file '.\extensions\rsge\index\macros.xml.sig'
The rest was about other mods that don't concern the map etc

My issue is that I don't know how to consider the added sector (003): as a custom sector or patched vanilla?
Technically it is a vanilla patch, I add the sector_003 in a existing cluster (cluster_04) that currently has only two.

My idea was to revamp the map by adding multiple sector in almost all (so the multi-sectors finally have a sense to exist) but mostly for scenic pourpose. I.e adding superhighways from/to the close moons or from low orbit (orbital planets) to the external space. Working on the "illusion" of space more than simply enlarging sectors. To give the planets a sense

But I'd like to find a procedure that works, copy and paste, I can't spend a week for a single cluster..considering I've to add the zones to each :rant:

BTW I made a similar mod for X3 FL (you see in sig.), it took me some time but despite the limits of X3 it worked. The "illusion" of space is very immersive with that mod
So i had several large projects these past few days and wasn't able to look into it much, sorry. I think adding your sector into a cluster would best be done as a diff, i am pretty much anti multi sector clusters but i can give it a go and see if i can get it working.
Realspace
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Re: Let's talk (multi)SECTORS :D

Post by Realspace »

Yeah I start to realize why you all who made mods with new clusters/sectors moved in the direction of a complete new galaxy or added sectors. Modifying the existing ones is more a throuble than it is worth. I am spending hours for no result.

I start to not like multi-sectors that much either, btw seems nobody noticed that in multisectors the skybox ends stretched in one of the sides. Very weird. Somehow I managed to see that after 100.000km the skybox is already doubled and after about 500.000 you are even out of it! :o

Seems that adding a new parented cluster as in Second Contact is the best option for increased realism. Maybe that and simply larger sectors. Plus rearranging planets so that they are not in the opposite direction to where the accelerator is pointing.. :sceptic:
DeadAirRT
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Re: Let's talk (multi)SECTORS :D

Post by DeadAirRT »

Realspace wrote: Tue, 29. Mar 22, 00:42 Yeah I start to realize why you all who made mods with new clusters/sectors moved in the direction of a complete new galaxy or added sectors. Modifying the existing ones is more a throuble than it is worth. I am spending hours for no result.

I start to not like multi-sectors that much either, btw seems nobody noticed that in multisectors the skybox ends stretched in one of the sides. Very weird. Somehow I managed to see that after 100.000km the skybox is already doubled and after about 500.000 you are even out of it! :o

Seems that adding a new parented cluster as in Second Contact is the best option for increased realism. Maybe that and simply larger sectors. Plus rearranging planets so that they are not in the opposite direction to where the accelerator is pointing.. :sceptic:
One of us!
Realspace
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Re: Let's talk (multi)SECTORS :D

Post by Realspace »

I want to try one last solution to increase realism: either a superhighway inside one single sector or a zone-highway so long that it can go from a planet to a moon (at reduced scale, like 50/80.000km). The latter would require to increase its speed. For the first, should I write the sechw identical as in zonehws? Bc enter/exit points are in the same sector.
What do you think is the easiest?

Another thing I did not expect to find is that orbital planets are not a sphere! As in X3, where sectors are limited to 4000km anyway, they are half-sphere. That plus the small skybox makes the sectors much smaller than I expected.
DeadAirRT
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Re: Let's talk (multi)SECTORS :D

Post by DeadAirRT »

Realspace wrote: Tue, 29. Mar 22, 05:24 I want to try one last solution to increase realism: either a superhighway inside one single sector or a zone-highway so long that it can go from a planet to a moon (at reduced scale, like 50/80.000km). The latter would require to increase its speed. For the first, should I write the sechw identical as in zonehws? Bc enter/exit points are in the same sector.
What do you think is the easiest?

Another thing I did not expect to find is that orbital planets are not a sphere! As in X3, where sectors are limited to 4000km anyway, they are half-sphere. That plus the small skybox makes the sectors much smaller than I expected.
I always get the two mixed up as far as files. A highway would be easier than a shw (the two gate from sector to sector) but i feel like the shw is more what you are looking for. You can put the entry and exit points wherever you like, it doesn't have to be a different sector.
Realspace
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Re: Let's talk (multi)SECTORS :D

Post by Realspace »

Ok, I am on the opposite direction. I want to remove the multiple sectors and use SUPERhighways inside each single sector.
This seems the best layout, Rebirth's like.

The general idea of layout is this:
*SINGLE CLUSTER/sector level (they coincide, no more multi-) containing one planet + 1/2 reachable moons (others as scenic)
- No highways
- yes Superhighways, simple straight one going from planet to moon + one superhighway going from moon to "exit" zone, kind of Lagrange zone, where TRANSORBITAL ACC. are
** MULTIPLE CLUSTERS level
- each cluster is connected to the parental, all together they are a system (multiple planets). Around one sun.
- these are internally connected through ACCELERATORS not gates
*** SYSTEM to SYSTEM layout
- each group of cluster (system) is connected to other groups of clusters
- the connection is in one of the external cluster (like an external planet of a system)
- this connection has to be through GATES


This general idea is already in the game's design but was NOT developed except in some small examples, disconected, and not following the right hierarchy
the rest is....random..
This randomness spoils immersion a lot for me!
Having a gate that teleports you in the lower orbit of a planet is killing immersion!


The game looks back to a box to box space, what were X2 and X3. But this engine is capable of much more

Up to now I only managed to remake the layout of galaxy, that was easy. At least visually, clusters are regrouped in a better way, solarsystem-like

Next step removing multi-sectors and pointing SUPERHIGHWAYS to a position inside the same single sector...now the first issue.

This is the code in clusters.xml for Nopileous Fort. that describes the superhw

Code: Select all

  <connection name="SuperHighway001_Cluster_04_connection" ref="sechighways">
        <offset>
          <position x="-50000" y="0" z="-80000000" />
        </offset>
        <macro ref="SuperHighway001_Cluster_04_macro" connection="cluster">
          <connections>
            <connection ref="exitpoint">
              <macro ref="tzoneCluster_04_Sector001SHCon6_GateZone_macro" path="../../Cluster_04_Sector001_connection/tzoneCluster_04_Sector001SHCon6_GateZone_connection" connection="entrypoint1" />
            </connection>
            <connection ref="entrypoint">
              <macro ref="tzoneCluster_04_Sector002SHCon5_GateZone_macro" path="../../Cluster_04_Sector002_connection/tzoneCluster_04_Sector002SHCon5_GateZone_connection" connection="exitpoint1" />
            </connection>
          </connections>
        </macro>
      </connection>
      <connection name="SuperHighway002_Cluster_04_connection" ref="sechighways">
        <offset>
          <position x="-50000" y="0" z="-80000000" />
        </offset>
        <macro ref="SuperHighway002_Cluster_04_macro" connection="cluster">
          <connections>
            <connection ref="entrypoint">
              <macro ref="tzoneCluster_04_Sector001SHCon10_GateZone_macro" path="../../Cluster_04_Sector001_connection/tzoneCluster_04_Sector001SHCon10_GateZone_connection" connection="exitpoint1" />
            </connection>
            <connection ref="exitpoint">
              <macro ref="tzoneCluster_04_Sector002SHCon9_GateZone_macro" path="../../Cluster_04_Sector002_connection/tzoneCluster_04_Sector002SHCon9_GateZone_connection" connection="entrypoint1" />
            </connection>
          </connections>
        </macro>
      </connection>
I already changed the distances to 80.000km and it works flawlessly between 2 sectors.

Deleting the second sector (002) was also easy, but superhighways disappear even if I move the old zones from 002 to 001

the entry/exit points contain a connection, because they point to a different sector (despite inside the same cluster)? Or it has to be written like this always? (I have no example of single sector with superhighways to see)
May I delete this totally, since it points at the same sector? Or should I change the Sector002 reference to Sector001?
:gruebel: :doh:
DeadAirRT
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Re: Let's talk (multi)SECTORS :D

Post by DeadAirRT »

Realspace wrote: Thu, 31. Mar 22, 17:39 Ok, I am on the opposite direction. I want to remove the multiple sectors and use SUPERhighways inside each single sector.
This seems the best layout, Rebirth's like.

The general idea of layout is this:
*SINGLE CLUSTER/sector level (they coincide, no more multi-) containing one planet + 1/2 reachable moons (others as scenic)
- No highways
- yes Superhighways, simple straight one going from planet to moon + one superhighway going from moon to "exit" zone, kind of Lagrange zone, where TRANSORBITAL ACC. are
** MULTIPLE CLUSTERS level
- each cluster is connected to the parental, all together they are a system (multiple planets). Around one sun.
- these are internally connected through ACCELERATORS not gates
*** SYSTEM to SYSTEM layout
- each group of cluster (system) is connected to other groups of clusters
- the connection is in one of the external cluster (like an external planet of a system)
- this connection has to be through GATES


This general idea is already in the game's design but was NOT developed except in some small examples, disconected, and not following the right hierarchy
the rest is....random..
This randomness spoils immersion a lot for me!
Having a gate that teleports you in the lower orbit of a planet is killing immersion!


The game looks back to a box to box space, what were X2 and X3. But this engine is capable of much more

Up to now I only managed to remake the layout of galaxy, that was easy. At least visually, clusters are regrouped in a better way, solarsystem-like

Next step removing multi-sectors and pointing SUPERHIGHWAYS to a position inside the same single sector...now the first issue.

This is the code in clusters.xml for Nopileous Fort. that describes the superhw

Code: Select all

  <connection name="SuperHighway001_Cluster_04_connection" ref="sechighways">
        <offset>
          <position x="-50000" y="0" z="-80000000" />
        </offset>
        <macro ref="SuperHighway001_Cluster_04_macro" connection="cluster">
          <connections>
            <connection ref="exitpoint">
              <macro ref="tzoneCluster_04_Sector001SHCon6_GateZone_macro" path="../../Cluster_04_Sector001_connection/tzoneCluster_04_Sector001SHCon6_GateZone_connection" connection="entrypoint1" />
            </connection>
            <connection ref="entrypoint">
              <macro ref="tzoneCluster_04_Sector002SHCon5_GateZone_macro" path="../../Cluster_04_Sector002_connection/tzoneCluster_04_Sector002SHCon5_GateZone_connection" connection="exitpoint1" />
            </connection>
          </connections>
        </macro>
      </connection>
      <connection name="SuperHighway002_Cluster_04_connection" ref="sechighways">
        <offset>
          <position x="-50000" y="0" z="-80000000" />
        </offset>
        <macro ref="SuperHighway002_Cluster_04_macro" connection="cluster">
          <connections>
            <connection ref="entrypoint">
              <macro ref="tzoneCluster_04_Sector001SHCon10_GateZone_macro" path="../../Cluster_04_Sector001_connection/tzoneCluster_04_Sector001SHCon10_GateZone_connection" connection="exitpoint1" />
            </connection>
            <connection ref="exitpoint">
              <macro ref="tzoneCluster_04_Sector002SHCon9_GateZone_macro" path="../../Cluster_04_Sector002_connection/tzoneCluster_04_Sector002SHCon9_GateZone_connection" connection="entrypoint1" />
            </connection>
          </connections>
        </macro>
      </connection>
I already changed the distances to 80.000km and it works flawlessly between 2 sectors.

Deleting the second sector (002) was also easy, but superhighways disappear even if I move the old zones from 002 to 001

the entry/exit points contain a connection, because they point to a different sector (despite inside the same cluster)? Or it has to be written like this always? (I have no example of single sector with superhighways to see)
May I delete this totally, since it points at the same sector? Or should I change the Sector002 reference to Sector001?
:gruebel: :doh:
I haven't messed with superhighways much but;

you would need to update the exitpoint macro and path. Something like this:

Code: Select all

<connection ref="exitpoint">
              <macro ref="tzoneCluster_04_Sector001SHConRS02_GateZone_macro" path="../../Cluster_04_Sector001_connection/tzoneCluster_04_Sector001SHConRS02_GateZone_connection" connection="entrypoint1" />
            </connection>
And you would want to move the contents of tzoneCluster_04_Sector002SHCon9_GateZone_connection into a tzone in cluster_04_sector001 called tzoneCluster_04_Sector001SHConRS02_GateZone_connection

I just chose RS02 as an example naming scheme that is likely to be unique
Realspace
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WIP - Galaxy Revamp

Post by Realspace »

Ok, I've spent days but now am quite fast at creating super hw and new multi/sectors, with some caveat:
Making 2 sector clusters is ok, but 3 sectors is a pain. Sectors are not where you see them, they are visually arranged despite their coordinates. With 2 no big issue, with 3 coordinates are crazy. Super hws are prone to disappear or be misalligned for the tiny number's error in placement
Looks like the vanilla galaxy is made with some editor, not really by typing numbers in Notepad++...anyway..
Issues:

Super-hw in ONE sector are throublesome. You can put it but it ends out of the sector inside the cluster
It seems it expects any s-hw to end in another sector, not the same. What I've not tried is making a super-hw end in another sector of ANOTHER CLUSTER...is it possible??
So I had to go back to original idea of multi-sectors.

I made new logical pathways in Argon Prime (alpha+beta), Second Contact, etc. Very nice, you can travel to lower orbit of planets etc. My idea is to move shipyards and wharf in alpha sectors (orbital sectors)

2) I tried using zone-hw instead. If I did not make mistakes, seems they are limited in the distance. They end sooner than how you set. So you can't make them like 50.000Km long (planet to moon in a 1/10 scale). Am I wrong or is it possible?

3) The skybox is stretched in multi-sectors (vanilla issue! - the skybox mesh is too small, no more than r=200.000Km), you can see it well in vanilla Earth's Moon sector too (btw i reduced the distance to half there, so now it shows much less). I tried loading it in Blender but could not export in xmf. It's a pity bc making a larger mesh would resolve a lot of visual glitches and it is an easy solution
So for now I'll follow this path, reduced scale for distances but less pixelation. Since planets are smaller than their scale would suggest, you don't notice anything

EDIT: found how to change gates into accelerators, ok, but hexagon's borders reamain separated as in clusters connected by gates not accelerators, any guess why?
Realspace
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Re: [obsolete] Let's talk (multi)SECTORS

Post by Realspace »

This is OBSOLETE

I've started a new topic on the project, that has gone further, here:
viewtopic.php?f=181&t=447122

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