Hi team, dynamic relations can be hilarious at times

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tim-ski
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Re: Hi team, dynamic relations can be hilarious at times

Post by tim-ski »

As I understand it, the caps are not symmetric because the logic is based on whether it is possible to exceed a cap. That test can be passed by different amounts of actual reputation, and thus a shift in one direction is not automatically matched by a shift in the other.

Release version 1.0. Unfortunately I don't have the +7/+3 state anymore, since I'm now working solely on Argon reputation, to discover if there comes a point where I can take another Split mission without significant reputation damage.
Thurak
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Re: Hi team, dynamic relations can be hilarious at times

Post by Thurak »

tim-ski wrote: Sun, 16. May 21, 22:12 The solution logically lay in abandoning the hard caps completely, and simply relying on the fact that an action for an enemy will always cause in a small negative rep, making it hard to maintain the highest rep with everyone. But I'm unsure how well that plays for factions with many enemies.
Yeah, that sounds about right.

Remove any caps like you suggest.

Remove a hard binding of rep gain for one faction with rep losses with their enemies.

Move those losses over to missions directly (and inform users!). Especially the fighting missions could even get an additional penalty, not just destroyed ships, and some other missions might also gain a direct penalty (moving soldiers around for the enemy, for example). But many missions should just not have a penalty, because playing taxi for a civilian should not really bother anyone, imo.

I think there is a lot of good in the general system. Despite the outcries here (including my own) it is definitely repairable.
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Klord
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Re: Hi team, dynamic relations can be hilarious at times

Post by Klord »

Thurak wrote: Mon, 17. May 21, 13:13 Yeah, that sounds about right.

Remove any caps like you suggest.

Remove a hard binding of rep gain for one faction with rep losses with their enemies.

Move those losses over to missions directly (and inform users!). Especially the fighting missions could even get an additional penalty, not just destroyed ships, and some other missions might also gain a direct penalty (moving soldiers around for the enemy, for example). But many missions should just not have a penalty, because playing taxi for a civilian should not really bother anyone, imo.

I think there is a lot of good in the general system. Despite the outcries here (including my own) it is definitely repairable.
If fighting missions are to be incurred an additional rep penelty, the reward should be enhanced. Otherwise Combat vs Trade aspects of the game will be imbalanced.
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Psynix
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Re: Hi team, dynamic relations can be hilarious at times

Post by Psynix »

Klord wrote: Mon, 17. May 21, 16:37
Thurak wrote: Mon, 17. May 21, 13:13 Yeah, that sounds about right.

Remove any caps like you suggest.

Remove a hard binding of rep gain for one faction with rep losses with their enemies.

Move those losses over to missions directly (and inform users!). Especially the fighting missions could even get an additional penalty, not just destroyed ships, and some other missions might also gain a direct penalty (moving soldiers around for the enemy, for example). But many missions should just not have a penalty, because playing taxi for a civilian should not really bother anyone, imo.

I think there is a lot of good in the general system. Despite the outcries here (including my own) it is definitely repairable.
If fighting missions are to be incurred an additional rep penelty, the reward should be enhanced. Otherwise Combat vs Trade aspects of the game will be imbalanced.
That wouldnt necessarily be the case since every rep penelty comes with a just as big of a rep bonus for the other side.
As long as they dont throw the rep balance like it is now completely over board it would just mean that for example a taxi mission wont get you (much) rep penelty - but it also wont get you (much) rep bonus for the side your doing it for.
A kill mission then would be the opposit - large penelty but also a large rep bonus.
Otherwise you could just do taxi missions the gain rep and never loose it which is obliviously not the dev's intentions.
I myself like the idea. It makes sense that no one would bat an eye if you give some Boron a ride. No matter if it is the Splitt Patriarch or Queen Atreus herself :D
chip56
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Re: Hi team, dynamic relations can be hilarious at times

Post by chip56 »

Psynix wrote: Mon, 17. May 21, 17:42
That wouldnt necessarily be the case since every rep penelty comes with a just as big of a rep bonus for the other side.
As long as they dont throw the rep balance like it is now completely over board it would just mean that for example a taxi mission wont get you (much) rep penelty - but it also wont get you (much) rep bonus for the side your doing it for.
A kill mission then would be the opposit - large penelty but also a large rep bonus.
Otherwise you could just do taxi missions the gain rep and never loose it which is obliviously not the dev's intentions.
I myself like the idea. It makes sense that no one would bat an eye if you give some Boron a ride. No matter if it is the Splitt Patriarch or Queen Atreus herself :D
Not necassarily as big of a rep bonus as you lose since you get 100 for the main faction, -30% for any enemy and 15% for allies. Which means if you have done something for someone with lots of enemies you will have a net loss.
I think it would be more intersting to make each mission give a differing percentage instead of just different amount of rep.
That way you could have a Split assination against a boron: something like 100% rep gain split but -200% boron for very high ranking people. A Taxi mission could be 100 rep gain and only -5% rep loss.
Xenon defense mission: 100% rep gain, -1% rep loss since thats the one thing they all agree on: xenon are a danger and must be stopped.
tim-ski
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Re: Hi team, dynamic relations can be hilarious at times

Post by tim-ski »

Once my Argon rep had been worked up to +7, taking a Split mission (with Split still at +7) resulted in a modest 9% reduction in Argon reputation and a far greater gain in Split rep.
  • That tends to support the original logic that enemies with low reputations are hit disproportionately when working for a faction at high reputation.
  • It suggests that at higher reputation levels it is entirely possible to gain with both mutual enemy factions, simply by switching mission faction at the right moment.
  • And in so far as reputation caps were supposed to limit that, they do not, because as shown here one can skip right past these caps with careful mission management.
Reputation caps are broken, both messing up base reputational mathematics, and probably as a consequence of having messed it up, then failing to definitively cap reputation.
Psynix
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Re: Hi team, dynamic relations can be hilarious at times

Post by Psynix »

chip56 wrote: Mon, 17. May 21, 18:03 Not necassarily as big of a rep bonus as you lose since you get 100 for the main faction, -30% for any enemy and 15% for allies. Which means if you have done something for someone with lots of enemies you will have a net loss.
I think it would be more intersting to make each mission give a differing percentage instead of just different amount of rep.
That way you could have a Split assination against a boron: something like 100% rep gain split but -200% boron for very high ranking people. A Taxi mission could be 100 rep gain and only -5% rep loss.
Xenon defense mission: 100% rep gain, -1% rep loss since thats the one thing they all agree on: xenon are a danger and must be stopped.
I too would like that since it would make it again possible to have good relations with everyone. But it sounded more like that's exactly what the dev's didn't want.
Well i guess we will have to wait till we find out :)
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blazenclaw
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Re: Hi team, dynamic relations can be hilarious at times

Post by blazenclaw »

chip56 wrote: Mon, 17. May 21, 18:03 Not necassarily as big of a rep bonus as you lose since you get 100 for the main faction, -30% for any enemy and 15% for allies.
Is it -30% for both "Hostile" and "Enemy" relation and +15% for both Ally/Friend, or some other mix?
chip56
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Re: Hi team, dynamic relations can be hilarious at times

Post by chip56 »

blazenclaw wrote: Mon, 17. May 21, 21:20 Is it -30% for both "Hostile" and "Enemy" relation and +15% for both Ally/Friend, or some other mix?
The globals file has the follwoing values:
SG_DYNRACE_FRIEND_ALLY;15;
SG_DYNRACE_FRIEND_HERO;10;
SG_DYNRACE_FRIEND_KNIGHT;5;
SG_DYNRACE_ENEMY;30;
SG_DYNRACE_ENEMY_MAIN;15;
SG_DYNRACE_MAXENEMYNOTO;33333;

Though i didnt manage to find out what hero, knight and enemy_main are supposed to be exactly. Guess one of the devs would have to explain that in more detail.
All i can say is that reducing the SG_DYNRACE_ENEMY makes it quite a bit of work to get positive rep with multiple factions but at least for the main factions actually possible. Which i feel is a bit more right: you can get to a good rank (but not max) rank with multiple factions if you actually do something for one side, than the other and so on. But as soon as you focus on one side the others drop actually.
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X2-Illuminatus
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Re: Hi team, dynamic relations can be hilarious at times

Post by X2-Illuminatus »

chip56 wrote: Mon, 17. May 21, 21:30 Though i didnt manage to find out what hero, knight and enemy_main are supposed to be exactly. Guess one of the devs would have to explain that in more detail.
A short explanation of the global values is given in the Survival Guide. Feel free to ask for more pointers in the X3FL Scripts and Modding Forum.
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chip56
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Re: Hi team, dynamic relations can be hilarious at times

Post by chip56 »

X2-Illuminatus wrote: Mon, 17. May 21, 21:41
chip56 wrote: Mon, 17. May 21, 21:30 Though i didnt manage to find out what hero, knight and enemy_main are supposed to be exactly. Guess one of the devs would have to explain that in more detail.
A short explanation of the global values is given in the Survival Guide. Feel free to ask for more pointers in the X3FL Scripts and Modding Forum.
Yeah i found that but i still didnt manage to understand those parts:
SG_DYNRACE_FRIEND_HERO 10 The percentage of notoriety points Hero races receive
SG_DYNRACE_FRIEND_KNIGHT 5 The percentage of notoriety points Knight races receive

And the enemy_main i wasnt sure i really i understood right.
Anyway for my own personal purposes editing the SG_DYNRACE_ENEMY did a lot already.
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Re: Hi team, dynamic relations can be hilarious at times

Post by Cycrow »

Those values are the percentage to adjust the other races by

The 5 values are different ranks, Ally is rank 9, hero is 7 and knight is 5. Enemy is -4 and enemy main is -2

If you look in the encyclopedia race page it lists the notoriety levels to other races.
If they are listed as Ally then they gain 15%, or Friend they gain either 10 or 5%, hostile will lose 15% and enemy will lose 30%.

Generally the main waring races are enemies with each other and hostile towards thier allies
So Argon is enemy to Paranid and hostile to Spilt.

This means that Paranid are not welcome in any Argon sector, but Split are only not welcome in Core sectors
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blazenclaw
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Re: Hi team, dynamic relations can be hilarious at times

Post by blazenclaw »

Thank you Cycrow, that was precisely what I was looking for :mrgreen:

I also happened to notice that Atreus has ATF listed as one of its enemies, but ATF has no corresponding entry for Atreus; not sure if that's lore or bug that ATF leaves this corp alone? (They also leave NMMC alone, but everyone does, so idk). Everything else (except Terran faction, haven't met them yet) seems to be symmetric with the exception of Goner, but that one makes more sense.
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Re: Hi team, dynamic relations can be hilarious at times

Post by Cycrow »

The Atreus and ATF is probably just a mistake

NMMC is a Teladi company so neutral with everyone except Yaki

The Goner is done deliberately
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blazenclaw
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Re: Hi team, dynamic relations can be hilarious at times

Post by blazenclaw »

NMMC is a Teladi company so neutral with everyone except Yaki
Both NMMC and Yaki are neutral to each other according to the Encyclopedia in 1.0, it's Duke's they have beef with apparently.
Table
Show
https://i.imgur.com/RDrUhDz.png
The left boxed column is a result change in notoriety after gaining the top boxed row of notoriety with each faction. Messy, but clearly it's a pretty negative sum game to play all sides, which totally makes sense lol.
This is also operating under the assumption that all "Friends" are 0.1 while some are actually 0.5.
So if I'm understanding the system right, it is impossible to have net positive relations with all factions, even excluding Terrans. Well, this excludes utilizing lower bounds, so you might be able to get a larger subset or even possibly full positive by hitting a negative limit... but darn, there go my hopes of gaming the system lol.

(Well, I'm sure things will change somewhat in 1.1 and onward, but this is for now at least)
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Thurak
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Re: Hi team, dynamic relations can be hilarious at times

Post by Thurak »

Psynix wrote: Mon, 17. May 21, 17:42 Otherwise you could just do taxi missions the gain rep and never loose it which is obliviously not the dev's intentions.
But mine. If I want to go to war, I could easily do a couple of war/fight missions and have my fun with it. If I want to be friends with anyone that should also be possible. If you only do fight missions it should be as hard as it is now to balance those, but I want taxi and trade missions to be imbalanced (on the reputation side), so players have the option to play a friendly Boron or Teladi trader.

Isn't the full balance approach early on exactly the problem of the current implementation?
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blazenclaw
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Re: Hi team, dynamic relations can be hilarious at times

Post by blazenclaw »

Thurak wrote: Mon, 17. May 21, 23:26 If I want to be friends with anyone that should also be possible. If you only do fight missions it should be as hard as it is now to balance those, but I want taxi and trade missions to be imbalanced (on the reputation side), so players have the option to play a friendly Boron or Teladi trader.
Technically, you absolutely can be friendly with nearly everyone in 1.0 as a friendly trader; you just won't be at the highest ranks with any faction. I don't think an Argon "Protector of the Federation" should be easily seen giving one of those pirate scum a taxi ride without repercussions, right?

I've been playing around with the current implementation of dynamic relations, and it is possible to be friends with almost all factions (including corporations) so long as you drop 2-3 to be dedicated enemies.
A couple examples:
Show
https://i.imgur.com/153nJER.png
I'll probably choose once I finally spot the Terrans and can add them to this list (lol), but my guess is that someone can probably be friendly with them as well so long as you're enemies with all three of OTAS/Strong/Dukes.
To be honest, I'm rather glad of this system; it is possible to be friendly with almost all (yet not max with any), OR high ranks with a few, as opposed to somehow every faction turning a blind eye to you selling arms to them and their deepest foes. The rapid swings when you approach a high rank with one faction is an unfortunate side effect of current implementation, but I'm certain the devs can figure a clever solution without breaking the system as it currently stands. Maybe rep gain for a mission should be something like max(fl_mission_reward, enemy_threshold) where fl_mission_reward is the current calculated value, and enemy_threshold is the limit for which the side effect would bring you to zero for a faction with which you're currently positive? But this is an off the cuff idea, I'm certain there's actually good ways to do it without overmuch coding effort.

Whatever the case, after considering it, I am now rather strongly in favor of dynamic relations. Thank you devs :mrgreen:

Edit: Found the Terrans, forgot how much everyone hates them lol. The best configuration I found that includes main factions and Terrans requires dropping Pirates/OTAS/Duke's/Strong (and ATF/Yaki, because I don't think you can improve relations with them?). Can't be friends with Pirates and Terrans and main races in a stable manner, even if all corps are dropped, so don't try! Also TY mod for editing images, didn't see forum rules re: image sizes.
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Thurak
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Re: Hi team, dynamic relations can be hilarious at times

Post by Thurak »

blazenclaw wrote: Tue, 18. May 21, 04:18 OR high ranks with a few, as opposed to somehow every faction turning a blind eye to you selling arms to them and their deepest foes.
I am convinced that any reputation losses simply because one gains reputation with another faction is a faulty idea. It should be mission bound: I lose Split rep, when I transport Boron weapons/soldiers, but not when I transport a civilian or food around. This is my main problem with the implementation right now. I absolutely do not want to turn a blind eye, but I also don't want the losses being based purely on reputation gain, that's too simplistic to me.

I would love a system with no reputation losses purely because another faction likes me. I would love no caps for relations. But I would very much prefer a lot more missions having a negative impact.

Supply a weapon factory with anything? Rep loss for enemies of the faction I support.

Military troop transport? Rep loss.

Purely accepting a patrol? Rep loss (additional to the kill losses)

There are probably more, but I think you get the idea.

This would enable players to choose their missions wisely (especially early on important) so the rep losses don't tank unexpected or simply because you killed three pirates.

I hope the devs at least consider the possibility that being best friends with anyone maybe should be an option. Not as easy as in previous X3 games, but not impossible as it is right now.
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izolight
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Re: Hi team, dynamic relations can be hilarious at times

Post by izolight »

I think there is some kind of overflow bug with the lower ranks (not sure if it is because of 1.1 RC3 or not as i haven't done missions yet with 1.0).
I was at -5 with Boron, Paranid and Split and did a mission for each (scan asteroids in every case, not sure if it matters) and after that I'm +8 or +9 with them, with their enemies not really affected.
Leading to this:
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Midnightknight
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Re: Hi team, dynamic relations can be hilarious at times

Post by Midnightknight »

I have the exact opposite issue.

I'm lossing rep with Teladi at the speed of light even while doing missions for them and doing nothing else. All my trade is mostly done with Teladi and Split but while docked at a station i see my rep drop 10% every 5-6 seconds.

I noticed all went completely wrong after a Condor showed up during a fight against the Yaki. I attacked them cause nobody was protecting the sector and they were going on my transport in a border split territory, near the gate. Then the condor showed up and used FAA on the enemies hitting me a lot in the process before turning red, i guess cause or a returning fire. I tried to tell it a few time it was mistake but it wasn't turning blue. I humped away he followed me, excuse again and again. Sometime it did turn blue, before juping again after me and red again. I could get rid of it by flying in a pirate sector where i hoped it would be killed be following me, but stopped.

After this i had a severe drop in reputation cause apparently my towers shot 2 Teladi merchants with no reasons, as i'm still friendly with them and was max rank, but since it happened only once ... Ok. Then i had a Tern jumping in my player HQ sector right in front of my when trying to take a gate and it was red too. I apologized and he went blue. So it looked almost like the bug was fixed until i saw my rep was constantly dropping.

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