Coronavirus: COVID-19

[matthewfarmery]

This is indeed a valid point. I find it interesting that humans through the ages have killed themselves over and over. (in many shapes and forms) Yet as soon as something else threatens us, Humans end up panicking and try to counter it.

for example, the climate, many humans know its changing, and for the worst. But won't do anything to really change anything. But lets say, something major happens, loads of floods, many countries suffering from heat, or land end up disappearing. Humans would then pull out all the stops to try and stop that. Or slow it down. Or if a large asteroid was coming our way that would end all life on Earth, again, humans would do whatever it takes to stop it.

But again, when it comes to Human Vs Human, we more or less just turn a blind eye.

This outbreak is indeed causing a massive panic, is it really justified? governments could have easy have stopped this coming in other countries by saying, Your not welcome to those that are infected. Its because of governments scrambling to try and get their people out of China, which lead to this.

Still, In my view, this is mother nature fighting back, and to me that is good on her!

[Alan Phipps]

On the topic of perspective, those other causes of death in the UK will mostly carry on happening anyway (maybe less on the driving because the roads are comparatively quiet and the pubs are shut, but maybe a few more on the murder because of added psychological pressures/issues and sustained home proximity frictions). The deaths directly attributable to Covid can mostly be counted as extras that likely would not have happened otherwise. Also how many extra deaths will there be indirectly but not directly due to Covid because the health service is overstretched and other needed treatments slip? <shrugs>

[X2-Illuminatus]

This outbreak is indeed causing a massive panic, is it really justified?

The panic? No. The caution? Yes.

governments could have easy have stopped this coming in other countries by saying, Your not welcome to those that are infected. Its because of governments scrambling to try and get their people out of China, which lead to this.

First of all, it took China quite a while to accept that there is a problem and take the warnings of their doctors and scientists seriously. Also, people can be infected and show no or only mild symptoms. While I agree that non-asia nations reacted not quickly or serious enough on this outbreak, I doubt that it would have been that easy to stop it altogether under the given circumstances.

Also how many extra deaths will there be indirectly but not directly due to Covid but because the health service is overstretched and other needed treatments slip?

Pretty much this! Italy has this problem now.

[Mightysword]

Like I said, with climate change, and the way that the planet is changing, and for the worst, then viruses like this might end up been more conman. Time will tell if how well we really do in this kind of emergency.

Still, In my view, this is mother nature fighting back, and to me that is good on her!

I didn't want to address it the first time you said something like this, but since you mention it again I feel I should say something. But first, let me make it clear that I'm a pro-environment, and I do believe in climate change. But, with your two statements I would have to ask: what would climate change has anything to do with any of this? Humanity has been facing outbreak like this for as long as it exists.

- Even before recorded history, when the environment were still 'pure' there are archeology evidence that pandemic wiped out entire civilizations.
- Since history started being recorded, there have been many outbreak pre-date the industry evolution.s

Yes, people is panic right now but like I said it's also a testimony on how unusual it is for modern society to face something like this. Also each time something like this pop up in recent times, it has often been identified the cause usually associate with practices that's not up to modern society standard, not because of it.

The point is, making opportunistic statements like the above (on this issue or others) at best, appears to be callous and unhelpful. At worst, it actually damages to whatever cause you're fighting for, since it makes sensible people to question the honesty of our argument while give ammunition to people who don't believe in actual climate change to make the case that environmentalist are a bunch of conspiracy nutcases.

[RegisterMe]

Well there is cause to suggest that the two are correlated. Namely that humans (and human needs) encroach on environments that otherwise would remain isolated from... humans. Look at pretty much all zoonosis incidents (outbreaks?) and you'll find, at root, humans encroaching on animal habitats, or exploiting resources that either are animals, or that exist in animal habitats we previously had little to no contact with.

I don't want to overplay it. But neither should it be disregarded.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoonosis

[felter]

Better get some perspective ...
Approx 45,000 die each month in the UK
Approx 5,000 of that monthly figure die of Altzheimers
Approx 150 die each month from traffic accidents
Approx 60 die each month having been murdered
So far 180 ish people have died in UK....

Lets keep it real, Italy had nearly 800 deaths on Saturday or if you want to look at the past month, they had 4,825 deaths attributed to the Coronavirus, and the next month it is only going to be higher, way much higher.

[Axeface]

Better get some perspective ...
Approx 45,000 die each month in the UK
Approx 5,000 of that monthly figure die of Altzheimers
Approx 150 die each month from traffic accidents
Approx 60 die each month having been murdered
So far 180 ish people have died in UK....

Its all very strange. Its really hard to get my head around it and the only conclusion I can come to is that we are being lied to about the statistics and chinas released statistics are false. In Italy 1000 people die a day on average, or so im told, they are probably going to lose 1000 today just from the virus. Something just doesnt add up. Maybe they dont want to cause a panic, or are trying to slowly show us the truth in order to limit panic.

I also really wish that they would release a 'amount tested' statistic.

[Mightysword]

@registerme: the thing is, when you bring up the term "climate change" it means a very specific argument for the majority of people, especially among those who don't care much for it. Climate change = carbon emission, earth heating up, industrial waste, unsustainable consumption ...etc... And most importantly, the context is that is fairly recent, in the order of a couple hundred years since the industry evolution, and currently deteriorated at an accelerated pace.

Sure, you can try to "push" some connection, after all survival on a planet has always been the story of man vs nature. The point is, if you try to tie climate change to this kind of epidemic, which has always been around throughout our history even before the concept "climate change" even exist then it doesn't serve to strengthen, but actually weaken the core argument of climate change. I'm playing the role of the devil advocate here, what I am saying is exactly what people who are suspicious about climate change is going to say - and I don't blame them - given how opportunistic and callous those claims are to even me who actually believe in climate change.

[RegisterMe]

Well, to be honest I hadn't really picked up on the climate change aspect of the discussion. Perhaps I just read through it and thought "environmental pressure". That having been said, climate change encourages a lot of "bleed" between human communities and the environments they expand into (or not).

Even if you only do a simple loop like

1. humans exploit environment
2. change the environment so that it's better exploitable
3. get more humans
4. go to 1.

it will result in more humans taking over more of the environment, exploiting it and changing it more to their liking, rinse and repeat.

All the while running up against... the environment. Some of which will be (contain animal life that we will probably try to exploit) inimicable to humans.

[berth]

Looking at the John Hopkins University graphic, I see that both Greenland and Madagascar have cases. Having played plenty of Plague Inc, these places were always the bane of my life

Remain calm, people. We'll get through this.

[RegisterMe]

Looking at the John Hopkins University graphic, I see that both Greenland and Madagascar have cases. Having played plenty of Plague Inc, these places were always the bane of my life

Remain calm, people. We'll get through this.

We will. But it will hurt. A lot of loved ones will die. A lot more poor, nameless, unloved ones will also die .

And... **** knows what's going to happen to economics.

[felter]

Better get some perspective ...
Approx 45,000 die each month in the UK
Approx 5,000 of that monthly figure die of Altzheimers
Approx 150 die each month from traffic accidents
Approx 60 die each month having been murdered
So far 180 ish people have died in UK....

Its all very strange. Its really hard to get my head around it and the only conclusion I can come to is that we are being lied to about the statistics and chinas released statistics are false. In Italy 1000 people die a day on average, or so im told, they are probably going to lose 1000 today just from the virus. Something just doesnt add up. Maybe they dont want to cause a panic, or are trying to slowly show us the truth in order to limit panic.

I also really wish that they would release a 'amount tested' statistic.

Italy is about two to three weeks ahead of us and they also have the second oldest population in the world, just behind Japan. With the way the idiots of this country (UK) are acting, what with them having day-trips to the seaside and to their caravans in the highlands for the weekend, it won't be long till we are hitting similar number as Italy.

[Mightysword]

When I heard Italy surpassed China in # of deaths my first reaction was "yeah, that means no way the # from China was actually that low". It's already a common suspicious mind with all the information suppression in China the nature of its government, but it kinda removed any lingering doubt or false hope that "it wasn't THAT bad". And I don't think that's just me but also go for a lot of people too, including figureheads around the world.

It's not a the right thing to appreciate it for but I think Italy (rather than China) that is providing the "first" actual picture of how this epidemic gonna look like on every aspect - in full view - rather that the bit and pieces that requires a lot of guess work coming from China. It's hardly a coincidence most governments around the world despite was pretty reluctant even when things got bad in China, had noticeably turn around and up their level as the situation in Italy got worse. Despite what each of them may say on the surface, I think all are taking somber notes. Here is a modern democratic country with one of the best healthcare in the world, and it's on its knee.

[RegisterMe]

Italy is about two to three weeks ahead of us and they also have the second oldest population in the world, just behind Japan. With the way the idiots of this country (UK) are acting, what with them having day-trips to the seaside and to their caravans in the highlands for the weekend, it won't be long till we are hitting similar number as Italy.

Just to hark back to, or at least relate to, a previous post.... Prior to COVID-19 Italy had the 3rd largest national debt in the world, and the 5th largest economy. "Markets" had already concluded that the EU could not afford to bail out Italy, were it required.

That tension between 3rd and 5th trouble anybody?

Today / yesterday, you have Macron (I think?) saying, basically, "the EU is nothing without Italy".

(admirable in my opinion, playing into Macron's aspirations say others, meanwhile the Bundesbank shudders.....).

I remain a "remainer", but breakforumrules, breakforumrules, is this not going to stress the EU existentially .

[pjknibbs]

Its all very strange. Its really hard to get my head around it and the only conclusion I can come to is that we are being lied to about the statistics and chinas released statistics are false.

You've got to bear in mind here that when China puts a city into lockdown, they *really mean it*. They can do stuff to force people to stay home that western democracies like Italy or the US simply can't, so it's not entirely surprising they've been able to bring their outbreak under control. Of course, it *is* entirely possible they're lying through their teeths about it, but this is one instance where I think they might be legit.

[chew-ie]

Today / yesterday, you have Macron (I think?) saying, basically, "the EU is nothing without Italy".

(admirable in my opinion, playing into Macron's aspirations say others, meanwhile the Bundesbank shudders.....).

I remain a "remainer", but breakforumrules, breakforumrules, is this not going to stress the EU existentially .

The thing is - all will be stressed. I strongly believe that large communities like the EU will fare better in the long run as they are better in compensating / sharing (as we are living it already). It's not only about the "politicians" but the whole mindset within europe.

In other words - if this crisis stresses the EU existentially, I don't want to see the impact on countries like the UK in comparison.

[Axeface]

They can do stuff to force people to stay home that western democracies like Italy or the US simply can't

Yet. Might be the whole agenda behind this.

The document I linked that govs are using to plan their reaction also outlines that full lockdowns are perhaps not the best way to deal with this, depending on the amount of cases and your countries capability to react. China has been saying that people are 'being let out' again, as if its over, when in reality its probably exactly whats outlined in that document - pulses of full lockdown followed by a short 'go out' window and then back to lockdown, for several months or even years.

[RegisterMe]

They can do stuff to force people to stay home that western democracies like Italy or the US simply can't

Yet. Might be the whole agenda behind this.

The document I linked that govs are using to plan their reaction also outlines that full lockdowns are perhaps not the best way to deal with this, depending on the amount of cases and your countries capability to react. China has been saying that people are 'being let out' again, as if its over, when in reality its probably exactly whats outlined in that document - pulses of full lockdown followed by a short 'go out' window and then back to lockdown, for several months or even years.

Until we either get herd immunity naturally (at the cost of much illness and loss of life), or a vaccine is developed that proves effective.

Yup.

And not much in the way of alternatives.

[felter]

So I looked out the stair window while passing it and here is my neighbours 30 year old idiot son, wife and his kid visiting his mummy. I'm not calling him an idiot for visiting, he is just an idiot full stop. As I watched he was coughing and spluttering all over the place, no covering of his mouth with anything, coughing all over his Mrs and kid. He did not look well at all, I wouldn't be surprised if he has the virus and if he does, he has just taken it to his parents. His old man could do without catching it, especially seeing as he is a full time firefighter, if the firefighters catch it who is going to put out all the fires. I did say he was an idiot didn't I.

[Axeface]

Until we either get herd immunity naturally (at the cost of much illness and loss of life), or a vaccine is developed that proves effective.

-deleted because I was wrong, probably important to not spread misinformation right now ;p -