Is it too easy to make money?

[battou]

While playing X4 and browsing forums, I noticed that something is missing from the experience I once had with X-Tension and X2, and X3 also. Its a filling of accomplishment, of making great step every time you can afford new guns, new ship, firs station, first cap ship... Remember how it was in first X games? Youll need to run with battaries on your Buster, then finally buy first Lifter, start trading silicon, buy few new ships and finally build your first silicon mine. It could take days. While exploring, completing missions abd ect.

And what its like in X4? You can build your first station and buy a fleet of M miners and traders in a matter of hours. I dont fiil like managing to accomplish something, overcome obstacles and economic barriers. Its far too easy. Its really fiils like a game, not a world like previous instalments.

[Warnoise]

It is not too easy to make money. It is just stations are too cheap

[Nicolas_Yad]

Won't be that easy when we'll be constantly fighting against Xenons et when we'll have to protect every miner against pirates.

[Teleth]

Well, this one is hard to tackle.

Personally I really hated playing as a fighter ship for hours in X3 as the missions were very routine, trading was more or less impossible with a small ship and the combat was comically simple with no depth to it. It was really fun once you got over that initial hump, but to me it did not at all feel like an achievement, it was just a really boring entrance to the actual game and a lot of people probably dropped it right there. It's true it all comes with a sense of accomplishment, but also it took a great deal of time to get anywhere at all.

Here in X4 it kind of feels reversed, the fighters are much better at everything and money seems to be a little too easy to obtain. It's a really quick experience to get to the meat of the game and I think Egosoft wanted players to be able to get to it in a much quicker fashion to ensure players had a higher attach rate to the game.
That said, I think they also hoped that players would be able to participate in much larger scale battles than ever before using said money; I assume you're expected to LOSE it much quicker than ever before participating.

I can't comment further as I don't really have experience with the game.
But I look forward to hearing about the first mod that makes the game hard as hell economically I don't think it would be hard to balance the game to be more hardcore like X3 was.

[radcapricorn]

Well, this one is hard to tackle.

Personally I really hated playing as a fighter ship for hours in X3 as the missions were very routine, trading was more or less impossible with a small ship and the combat was comically simple with no depth to it. It was really fun once you got over that initial hump, but to me it did not at all feel like an achievement, it was just a really boring entrance to the actual game and a lot of people probably dropped it right there. It's true it all comes with a sense of accomplishment, but also it took a great deal of time to get anywhere at all.

True, but admittedly, it wasn't that hard to advance in X2 and X3. One just needed to apply oneself, to commit to a particular path so to speak. The rewards didn't come instantly, but they sure did, and rewards they were. That is, if you put off the "story" for a bit, as that was where Ego first started this un-fine tradition of freebies. With experience and practice, you can easily get some "starter kit" in a couple in-game hours. Now, I get that "X-TREME" levels of grind are unappealing to new players, but I mean come on, a line has to be drawn somewhere. You shouldn't be able to just buy anything you want after a couple of hours. Or if you are, you should've at least done a ton of work in those two hours.

Many of the complaints about the "small" universe also stem from this. In X-T, X-2 and X-3, you had to "expand your horizon" (can't really call that "explore" since most of oldtimers probably know the map by heart), there were very practical reasons for doing so: making trade routes or staking out the NPC ones, getting particular equipment, getting access to more missions and more racial reputation... In Rebirth and seemingly X-4, that's no longer the case. Everything is "just here" (well, maybe not the racial rep). Which is weird. Like, many of the previous requirements are still there: you need to explore for trading, for getting other ships, for rep... but why bother right from the start when you can easily farm enough to get a decent wallet or a money-making machine? After that the exploration just turns into a sight-seeing tour with little value to it. No wonder people are complaining that it's a small universe.

[MegaJohnny]

S and M ships do seem ridiculously cheap. A big fighter in X3 could easily cost 2 million compared to a scout costing like 60k, and moving from a scout to a shiny Nova was a hill to climb in itself. But now the price and performance difference between different S fight ships is really tiny.

But maybe this is all part of the economy? Ships can't be too expensive if the NPCs have to pay the materials for them now. It could make the economy fragile (I guess, I'm not an economist).

[birdtable]

A sense of achievement, overcoming a challenge has long been removed from gaming, it started in X games with Albion Prelude.... One only has to see the youtubes of "How to make a billion without playing the game" have proliferated..... Regretfully it appears to be what the market wants...

Except for Kenshi, brutal as ever

[Ranix]

it's too easy right now because there are no pirates

[malkuth1974]

Its easier than X3.. But we have a massive amount of money sinks.. In previoius games.. you bought a station and started it up.

In X4 you have to buy the blueprints. (or find them).. You have to buy the plot. Than you can build them.. If you choose not to search for blueprints.. Your talking 20 Million in just unlocking all your modules for your first station. 1.32 fixed the wars.. your going to lose a lot of assets.. Lots.. your going to have to replace them.

100 million is really not that much in this game today. Yeah you can have fun with it.. Make a fleet. Etc.. But it goes quick.

[radcapricorn]

The absolute numeric amounts are not in question here, your purchasing capacity is. If your money "goes" not much quicker than you can replenish it, it's an utopia, not an "economy".

[Osbot]

While playing X4 and browsing forums, I noticed that something is missing from the experience I once had with X-Tension and X2, and X3 also. Its a filling of accomplishment, of making great step every time you can afford new guns, new ship, firs station, first cap ship... Remember how it was in first X games? Youll need to run with battaries on your Buster, then finally buy first Lifter, start trading silicon, buy few new ships and finally build your first silicon mine. It could take days. While exploring, completing missions abd ect.

And what its like in X4? You can build your first station and buy a fleet of M miners and traders in a matter of hours. I dont fiil like managing to accomplish something, overcome obstacles and economic barriers. Its far too easy. Its really fiils like a game, not a world like previous instalments.

With constant Khaak and Xenon incursions now, it might not be so easy. If you've already got a fat bankroll with the new beta patch. The hard part is done. However, a new game, might prove more hazardous and the risk of losing ships miners and traders will be real.

[ApoxNM]

I think it's ok this way.

Grinding in my opinion should not be the core mechanic of a game.

That's a thing mods can solve easily. Just make some mods with different prices and it will change the whole universe.

Base game is good as is for new players.

Mods can mnake it a hardcore experience.

[Gregorovitch]

There is no doubt that making money early game is ridiculously easy and quick compared to X3. Whether this is a good or bad thing is not so easy to answer. Getting off the ground in X3 was undoubtedly a grind. The big arguments in favour of the X4 approach IMO are:

1. It was very difficult for new players to figure out how to get off the ground without extensive study of guides and videos in X3, and that's hard to justify.

2. Rather like Factorio today, the vet player's enthusiasm for a new X3 game can be severely dampened by the prospect of yet another protracted and seemingly endless grind, pretty much the same grind every game, to get up and running and into the meat of the game.

To me the question turns on whether the meat of the X4 gameplay turns out to be challenging and interesting enough. If it does then the accelerated lift-off won't matter. If it doesn't then easy early money = dumbing down = not a proper X game.

[battou]

There is no doubt that making money early game is ridiculously easy and quick compared to X3. Whether this is a good or bad thing is not so easy to answer. Getting off the ground in X3 was undoubtedly a grind. The big arguments in favour of the X4 approach IMO are:

1. It was very difficult for new players to figure out how to get off the ground without extensive study of guides and videos in X3, and that's hard to justify.

2. Rather like Factorio today, the vet player's enthusiasm for a new X3 game can be severely dampened by the prospect of yet another protracted and seemingly endless grind, pretty much the same grind every game, to get up and running and into the meat of the game.

To me the question turns on whether the meat of the X4 gameplay turns out to be challenging and interesting enough. If it does then the accelerated lift-off won't matter. If it doesn't then easy early money = dumbing down = not a proper X game.

I disagree to some degree with you on first argument. I enjoyed quiet alot that filling of a small fish being thrown in a giant ocean. Needing time to understand and figure out how to earn money, build wips, stations, how to build rep and ect. There was a sense that this world is not made for you, that it is alive, lived in and can easily stay this way without me. It was hard and unclear, but thats is how is is in real life when you end up in a new place.

X4 is just feels that everything around is just a toys in a playroom just for you. Yes, ther is no gring, no steep learning curve, plenty of guidlines and ect. But it fills like a game and not like as if you are just a small man in a small ship starting your life in a grand universe. I think its suppose to be a learning hard way experience.

[Nikola515]

Everything depends how you are playing game.... If you want to use exploits or if you want to roleplay and play fair. Also it doesn't help that game lack any real enemy and danger. Stations might be cheap (like in other X games) but if you add weapons on them they wont be as cheap anymore Also they are much larger now making them easy target so you would need more ships to protect them. I think they did good with balance in my opinion but the only thing is that they need to add some real danger so players should be more careful with their assets. It is easy to build stations but it is even easier for enemies to destroy it if you are not careful Universe is too safe and it is easy for players to prosper... Hell I'm still flying my scout because there is no need to upgrade
Also there should be different game start where players don't have to get involved with fighting and they can enjoy peaceful universe (like what we have now). I didn't get involved with war and I'm profiting from both sides

[ApoxNM]

The only thing I think really needs changins is Reputation. You gather and lose it far too quickly.

Gaining Rep should be a slow process.

[Spiralrazor]

Everything depends how you are playing game.... If you want to use exploits or if you want to roleplay and play fair. Also it doesn't help that game lack any real enemy and danger. Stations might be cheap (like in other X games) but if you add weapons on them they wont be as cheap anymore Also they are much larger now making them easy target so you would need more ships to protect them. I think they did good with balance in my opinion but the only thing is that they need to add some real danger so players should be more careful with their assets. It is easy to build stations but it is even easier for enemies to destroy it if you are not careful Universe is too safe and it is easy for players to prosper... Hell I'm still flying my scout because there is no need to upgrade
Also there should be different game start where players don't have to get involved with fighting and they can enjoy peaceful universe (like what we have now). I didn't get involved with war and I'm profiting from both sides

There is plenty of danger now...for the first time ever last night I lost some of my Tern traders to pirate frigates...cant outrun them and traders are Terns are underarmed to fight them off. Had to redo all orders to "Escape" and hope for the best. I may have to think about getting some Teladi scout escorts. Also, i had an incursion of Xenon into Bright Promise, several P's and two destroyers, where my main station is located at....I had two ospreys defending but i was very glad i put some plasma cannons on my station....First time ive had to issue the "Recall subordinates" command of the station, heh.

[Depleted]

If you're lucky you can find a bunch of mine clearance/deployment missions early on and get a few mill with ease.
What i did in my first game of X4 was go crystal mining, i made 3kk in about an hour, then later on did it again and made 15kk, so depending on what you do you can make money rather quickly.
I think missions and crystals will receive many changes to balance things out later on.
Traders can make money but very slowly, gas miners make good money often from my experience.

[Arghan]

Right. I have a day job where making money is hard. I don't need a night time job where it is as hard. Sorry guys, but for me (and i'm guessing a lot of others) current way is best.

I don't have to commit to one thing and grind it for hours to get good stuff. I can do few things here, few there and get quite nice amount of starting cash, which makes snowball effect nicely. For me its a game and I don't want it to become a job where I know I have to do X, Y or Z in the beginning or I will have to grind.

[LameFox]

If you're lucky you can find a bunch of mine clearance/deployment missions early on and get a few mill with ease.
What i did in my first game of X4 was go crystal mining, i made 3kk in about an hour, then later on did it again and made 15kk, so depending on what you do you can make money rather quickly.
I think missions and crystals will receive many changes to balance things out later on.
Traders can make money but very slowly, gas miners make good money often from my experience.

I think there's a reason for that though... you can have loads of ships mining, trading, all across the galaxy. But for gathering crystals and doing missions, you can't set ships to wander around doing that as an automatic behaviour. It's just you.