Split from X-Rebirth Steam poll thread - Round 2

[NUKLEAR-SLUG]

A lot of steam users are scrapping the bottom of the barrel for excuses that steam is the best thing in the world for rebirth.The most common one is, it is a certanty rebirth will get more sales with steam,so i would like to no were they get these assumptions from.i believe it is wishful thinking on the part of steam users to try and override every opponent of steam.Till sales figures are released no one cansay what the figures are,but to say they can see into the future well which oricle do they use,the old one

I think it's patently obvious that if you can drop an advert in front of 30 million potential customers then even if only 0.1% of those people actually buy the game then you've just made one hell of a lot of sales. If we're talking about a game that is as niche as the X series has always been and therefore not one that mainstream retailers are even willing to consider stocking because Egosoft can't guarantee thousands of units of sales then that 0.1% becomes even more significant.

I'm sure Egosoft have done their homework. We know they've tested the water with both TC on Steam and with the Sunny Place DLC and irrespective of what you choose to believe Egosoft have apparently found the pool sufficiently inviting that they've decided to jump right in with both feet. Unless you're suggesting that they have no idea what's best for their own company I think it's safe to say that at the present time they reckon Steam is the way forward for them.

[dougeye]

Guys you forget that egosoft actively support the modding of there games, as a said in a previous post they might not make a method of a secondary install available strait away (to avoid piracy) but im sure that if steamworks is stopping the use of mods they will eventually upload some sort of patch for modders so you can create a secondary install, i just believe not on release day as people will just torrent the game and install the patch avoiding steam lol

[apricotslice]

Guys you forget that egosoft actively support the modding of there games, as a said in a previous post they might not make a method of a secondary install available strait away (to avoid piracy) but im sure that if steamworks is stopping the use of mods they will eventually upload some sort of patch for modders so you can create a secondary install, i just believe not on release day as people will just torrent the game and install the patch avoiding steam lol

If I thought there was a way to safely do this, I'd suggest it.

I can cope with Steam if its only for activation and I can uninstall it afterwards.

So if getting some code from Steam that I can pass on to egosoft and download a steam-less exe can be done, I'm all for it.

Of course, that then voids Bernd's statement that all patches would be through steam and it saves them work to only do one patch.

So I cant see it happening.

[esd]

Updated it then, you happy now?

No. The first bit of what I said was the main reason - we've got a thread for Steam discussion, another one will just result in another thread containing all the same points.

[Phony]

Take X3TC for example, when i found out it was released i could not find a disc copy anywere in the south west of england, not in game or gamestation the two major game reailers in the uk, this is probably due to the fact they only realy stck the top ten pc releases these days as they both see pc games as not being worth the shelf space! At the time i only had steam to play half life 2 but i thought you know what ill check out the steam store on the off chance X3TC is there, so would you believe it it was there so i passed over every little bit of information about my personal life to steam (jokes ) and made the purchase, 2 hours later i had the game installed updated! (this was 2.5 aldrin missions) and ready to go and have loved it ever since. If i had relied on store bought disc version i would never have got X3TC and probably wouldn't be here now talking about Rebirth (if only some people are thinking lol).

So the point is that unless you live near a large flagship game store (in england at least) you have no chance of coming across smaller developers games so i platform like steam although NOT PERFECT was a god send and to suggest having a vendor the size of steam onbaord wont boost sales is madness TBH.

Sure

Where did you get your Hardware
Don`t tell me your local Computer Dealer had all of your Hardware in Stock
Yeah you bought all of that with Steam

[A5PECT]

When's the last time you drove to your local computer/electronics store to pick up boxed copies of all of the driver updates for all of that hardware?

Software != Hardware

And Rebirth is software.

[dougeye]

Take X3TC for example, when i found out it was released i could not find a disc copy anywere in the south west of england, not in game or gamestation the two major game reailers in the uk, this is probably due to the fact they only realy stck the top ten pc releases these days as they both see pc games as not being worth the shelf space! At the time i only had steam to play half life 2 but i thought you know what ill check out the steam store on the off chance X3TC is there, so would you believe it it was there so i passed over every little bit of information about my personal life to steam (jokes ) and made the purchase, 2 hours later i had the game installed updated! (this was 2.5 aldrin missions) and ready to go and have loved it ever since. If i had relied on store bought disc version i would never have got X3TC and probably wouldn't be here now talking about Rebirth (if only some people are thinking lol).

So the point is that unless you live near a large flagship game store (in england at least) you have no chance of coming across smaller developers games so i platform like steam although NOT PERFECT was a god send and to suggest having a vendor the size of steam onbaord wont boost sales is madness TBH.

Sure

Where did you get your Hardware
Don`t tell me your local Computer Dealer had all of your Hardware in Stock
Yeah you bought all of that with Steam

not sure if you just didnt bother to read my post or your just ignorant, what has any of it got to do with were i buy hardware? If your refering to the fact that my local store did not stock the game but i could have ordered it online then your wrong at least when i checked around online i couldnt find any online uk stores still selling x3tc, as my post said i didnt buy it until 2.5 aldrin missions was released. So steam was a quick and easy way of purchasing the game and ive played the game with no problems every since using steam and with a secondary install using mods.

just to clarify if that wasnt what you were refering too, games shops dont stock hardware in the uk and vise versa or at least the smaller shops arounf the south west dont.

[quase]

Again and again, Steam does not have 30 million active users! You can not say from the number of accounts how many people there really are, but this was already said for any forum accounts as well. I think it is safe to say that there are between 5 to 10 million active Steam users if you look at the Steam statistics. The rest are double or triple accounts from one and the same persons (for selling used games). I wonder how many accounts an average user on Steam has, but 3 at least seems pretty average to assume.

You can not argue that you have a free advertising approach to these people on release, but how many do you think will actually buy a niche product for the full price on release? Sure there will be many people which did not have the intention to buy such a niche product when the game will be a sale between 5-10€, but the important revenue is usually made in the first 2 weeks with the full price and not half a year later with a budget version.

I do not know how many sold copies it needs to climb the top of the top-sellers list on Steam, but judging from the speed a title drops out again from the list after a sale, it does not need much. We will never be able to tell because neither Steam nor the publisher give actual numbers on topic of digital distribution.
I can give you an example from CD Projekt's The Witcher 2 again though because they said the quota for digital distribution was 20% (GoG.com+Steam) at around a total of 1 million copies sold. So around 200.000 copies sold through digital distribution and I would argue that the GoG.com version sold more than Steam. Before the sale on Steam I suppose the Steam quota was below 10%.
In my opinion this clearly indicates that if you give the customer the choice, most people will not choose Steam. This is why I would like to see X Rebirth on as many platforms as possible without forced Steam integration because this way you maximise your revenue.

[apricotslice]

This is why I would like to see X Rebirth on as many platforms as possible without forced Steam integration because this way you maximise your revenue.

Actually, that point does bother me.

Maximized sales comes from maximizing the selling options. So XR should be released (ideally) to every single way that it can be seen and bought.

Steam integration, effectively restricts the sales base to a single stream.

So it doesnt make sense to go steam only, because it just alienates sections of the sales base.

Good business is maximising the sales base, not alienating parts of it.

So the trade off is different versions of patches for different delivery methods. Is that so difficult and time consuming to do, that alienating sections of the sales base is worth it ? I doubt it.

[Phony]

If your refering to the fact that my local store did not stock the game but i could have ordered it online then your wrong at least when i checked around online i couldnt find any online uk stores still selling x3tc, as my post said i didnt buy it until 2.5 aldrin missions was released..

I was refering to that because you could have bought XTC Online /Mail Order since
you have order your Hardware this way...

Look what i have still found:

http://www.play.com/Search.html?searcht ... n+conflict
and
http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_ ... n+Conflict

[Burneyx]

Ok, lets prove this statement:

Playing a VAC game after playing a singleplayer game with cheats can result in a VAC ban, it is wise to reboot your computer to make sure it isn't running.

Lets put that into context - the cheats in question are third party programs which hook into the game and provide some advantage to the player. We're talking about aimbots and wallhacks here. The programmers responsible have demonstrated a lack of integrity just by creating a program with the primary purpose of cheating in online play.

Is it any surprise that these programs can not be trusted to cleanly remove themselves from the game before you connect to a VAC server? Its also common for these programs to include keyloggers or other malware, nobody with any sense should ever install one for any reason, and the common advice for people who have been VACed for using one is to reinstall the OS from scratch before they rebuy the game, because they have been known to cause problems after supposedly being uninstalled.

Good point, but are you sure that all Steam consumers are informed about that?
Even the new ones? I guess not. Thats the point for me.

greetings

burneyx

Also vac bans are not the same aas accou t bans. They only prevent you from accessing vac protected servers. It doesn't lock of your games completly. And doesn't effect any single player games at all

First thanks for the feedback on this.

Still being VACed for NOT cheating in multiplayer is not acceptable for me and i would like to call this cool feature VAC-TRAP.
A modern anti cheating software should be able to differ between fragments of code left in memory and an active negative(cheating) running task.
Even if there are ways to remove the VAC ban, many users will not be patient enough to wait for it and simply rebuy the game.
There are rumors in the net that some users bought their game 3 or more times because of being VACed.......but Steam isnt responsible for that behavior, only to make this clear, its their own decision to do so.

Anyways, in a matter of trust and for me in person this is another point witch makes my decision to not use Steam a little more solid.......

greetings

Burneyx

[apricotslice]

this is another point witch makes my decision to not use Steam a little more solid......

The more the pro-steam people argue, the more against steam I've gotten. The more I find out about it, the less I like it.

[fairywhipper]

this is another point witch makes my decision to not use Steam a little more solid......

The more the pro-steam people argue, the more against steam I've gotten. The more I find out about it, the less I like it.

especially considering the release of non steam version would not effect their product been still actively brought out on steam. steam has good and bad points, i dont really care, i just want a non steam alternative.

ps one of the fun bitz about shopping is trying to find what you want, the internet is a cheat! im sure i saw xtc in shop for sale before last xmas in england, but then again i live in north of the watford gap!

[Cycrow]

Ok, lets prove this statement:

Playing a VAC game after playing a singleplayer game with cheats can result in a VAC ban, it is wise to reboot your computer to make sure it isn't running.

Lets put that into context - the cheats in question are third party programs which hook into the game and provide some advantage to the player. We're talking about aimbots and wallhacks here. The programmers responsible have demonstrated a lack of integrity just by creating a program with the primary purpose of cheating in online play.

Is it any surprise that these programs can not be trusted to cleanly remove themselves from the game before you connect to a VAC server? Its also common for these programs to include keyloggers or other malware, nobody with any sense should ever install one for any reason, and the common advice for people who have been VACed for using one is to reinstall the OS from scratch before they rebuy the game, because they have been known to cause problems after supposedly being uninstalled.

Good point, but are you sure that all Steam consumers are informed about that?
Even the new ones? I guess not. Thats the point for me.

greetings

burneyx

Also vac bans are not the same aas accou t bans. They only prevent you from accessing vac protected servers. It doesn't lock of your games completly. And doesn't effect any single player games at all

First thanks for the feedback on this.

Still being VACed for NOT cheating in multiplayer is not acceptable for me and i would like to call this cool feature VAC-TRAP.
A modern anti cheating software should be able to differ between fragments of code left in memory and an active negative(cheating) running task.
Even if there are ways to remove the VAC ban, many users will not be patient enough to wait for it and simply rebuy the game.
There are rumors in the net that some users bought their game 3 or more times because of being VACed.......but Steam isnt responsible for that behavior, only to make this clear, its their own decision to do so.

Anyways, in a matter of trust and for me in person this is another point witch makes my decision to not use Steam a little more solid.......

greetings

Burneyx

but they wouldn't have had the traces of this program if they wern't planning to cheat anyways. besides hows any program supposed to know the users intention. if you have 2 peices of software, doing the same thing. 1 is just running n the background while the other is under the control of the user.

how would any software be able to tell the difference between the 2 ?
as far as it knows, both programs are activly running, it doesn't matter if the user is activily using it or not

[Burneyx]

but they wouldn't have had the traces of this program if they wern't planning to cheat anyways. besides hows any program supposed to know the users intention. if you have 2 peices of software, doing the same thing. 1 is just running n the background while the other is under the control of the user.

how would any software be able to tell the difference between the 2 ?
as far as it knows, both programs are activly running, it doesn't matter if the user is activily using it or not

Ok, lets point this out.
1. Singleplayer cheat running
2. Multiplayer cheat running
3. Multiplayer game running

1. is inactive because its code isnt designed to interact with 3

2. is active and interacting with 3, logging keys for example

Its much easier to scan for running tasks, then to detect the true interaction.
So i guess its ok, when Steam uses the easier (and cheaper) way.

If you want to play secure i refer to this:

..........and the common advice for people who have been VACed for using one is to reinstall the OS from scratch before they rebuy the game, because they have been known to cause problems after supposedly being uninstalled.

greetings

burneyx

[andrewas]

The cheats VAC look at are all multiplayer cheats - some of them may work in single player, but thats not what they are written for. Also, the bit about wiping the OS is almost certainly overkill, but it is the only easy way to be sure that a malware is truly gone.

Also, I don't see the sense in rejecting a single player game on Steam because you don't like how VAC works.

[Burneyx]

The cheats VAC look at are all multiplayer cheats - some of them may work in single player, but thats not what they are written for. Also, the bit about wiping the OS is almost certainly overkill, but it is the only easy way to be sure that a malware is truly gone.

Also, I don't see the sense in rejecting a single player game on Steam because you don't like how VAC works.

Very simple, its not VAC only, i have many other reasons to not use Steam.
I would pretty much enjoy to buy an Standalone X-Rebirth(without Steam) multiple times......

greetings

burneyx

[NUKLEAR-SLUG]

I wonder how many accounts an average user on Steam has, but 3 at least seems pretty average to assume.

Assumption based on what source?

You can not argue that you have a free advertising approach to these people on release, but how many do you think will actually buy a niche product for the full price on release? Sure there will be many people which did not have the intention to buy such a niche product when the game will be a sale between 5-10€, but the important revenue is usually made in the first 2 weeks with the full price and not half a year later with a budget version.

Exactly the same amount of people who would buy it at full price retail... except that being a niche product retail is unlikely to even agree to stock it in the first place so Steam still provides the better sales advantage.

I can give you an example from CD Projekt's The Witcher 2 again though because they said the quota for digital distribution was 20% (GoG.com+Steam) at around a total of 1 million copies sold. So around 200.000 copies sold through digital distribution and I would argue that the GoG.com version sold more than Steam. Before the sale on Steam I suppose the Steam quota was below 10%.
In my opinion this clearly indicates that if you give the customer the choice, most people will not choose Steam.

In my opinion this clearly indicates that you have no digital distribution sales figure breakdown and have therefore just 'decided' that Steam must have sold less because it suits your point. Unless of course you wish to provide source?

Actually, that point does bother me.

Maximized sales comes from maximizing the selling options. So XR should be released (ideally) to every single way that it can be seen and bought.

Steam integration, effectively restricts the sales base to a single stream

No it doesn't because there is no restriction on which distribution platform Rebirth is sold on. Be it retail DVD, GFWL, Impulse, Origin or <dramatic music> Steam. The only fixed requirement Egosoft has stated and which you'd already know if you paid atttention is that irrespective of where you get the game from they currently plan to be using Steam for update and authentication ability.

There are rumors in the net that some users bought their game 3 or more times because of being VACed.......but Steam isnt responsible for that behavior, only to make this clear, its their own decision to do so

Perhaps those people should stop cheating then?

[Burneyx]

There are rumors in the net that some users bought their game 3 or more times because of being VACed.......but Steam isnt responsible for that behavior, only to make this clear, its their own decision to do so

Perhaps those people should stop cheating then?

Perhaps you should stop taking out one sentence and start to read the thread completely.
I try to discuss with facts, you should do the same.

greetings

burneyx

[Dantrithor]

Still being VACed for NOT cheating in multiplayer is not acceptable for me and i would like to call this cool feature VAC-TRAP.
A modern anti cheating software should be able to differ between fragments of code left in memory and an active negative(cheating) running task.

You have to understand the fact that cheat programmers actively improve their softwares to avoid detection by the anti-cheat softwares, and the AC developers have to continously upgrade their software.

If you had ever programmed anything serious, you would understand how software can not be expected to do everything, specially when dealing with third party software (cheats in this case) which is designed to avoid detection by the anti-cheat. It's exactly like saying the modern Anti-virus software should protect you from everything.